Does anyone run a 997 GT3 Cup car?
Discussion
Yes I do. Regarding running costs, I worked them out to be about 960 EUROs per hour excluding tyres, fuel, depreciation (there is hardly any) and tax. So in total I'd say just over 1.000 EUROs per hour.
You can probably get away with a little bit less as in my scenario I have stuck "to the manual" and have also included things like 2 replacement windscreens, wheel nuts etc.
Happy to translate & send you the spreadsheet if you pm me.
Edited to add: That's for a MY2008 3.8 litre car.
You can probably get away with a little bit less as in my scenario I have stuck "to the manual" and have also included things like 2 replacement windscreens, wheel nuts etc.
Happy to translate & send you the spreadsheet if you pm me.
Edited to add: That's for a MY2008 3.8 litre car.
The first rule of cup club is never talk about cup club.......
Joking aside, there are way too many variables to consider so its impossible to make a guide relevant, thats partly the reason that its never talked about publicly much. Do you want to do track days, do you want to race, do you want to be near the front? (note: it gets old stretching rubber life out and just being out there for the participation with others who are playing harder a lot faster than you may think)
Expect to struggle to keep it fuelled and in rubber while dealing with brake consumables and fluid changes (engine/gearbox/brake) for £1000/hr over the term even if you scrimp and run on worn out rubber. And if you havent driven one before prepare to waste a load of rubber at first. Its all well working to costs excluding those consumables but its those that you will feel most quickly. If you arent ready for that it can sour the experience very quickly. I have seen it plenty of times.
Beyond that, some stuff to think about ref operating costs:
What are you going to do regarding refreshes? Pay extra for a car with everything rebuilt and then ignore the future rebuild costs by trying to move it on before the clock runs out? If so you can kick the £/hr rate down the road but it will catch you on the resale price. Theres no avoiding it completely. This is for both Engine and Gearbox, and acutely the latter on the 997. Assuming you are racing then you are almost at the £1000/hr figure for refreshes on these two items and nothing else. Not racing, then expect longer on the engine, not on the gearbox though or you just end up with bigger bills when you do pull it than if you had run the maintenance properly. Where you are planning on running the car will also impact these costs. Does engine and gearbox need to remain sealed or can you let anyone rake about inside? Is there anyone near you who can rake inside or will you have to travel with the car for work on it?
Trailer costs including buying one and a vehicle to tow or do you have those already and just need to factor in the hauling costs or trackside storage?
Can you spanner yourself, can you spanner at least to the levels of the consumables (fluids/wheels/brakes), can you do geo checks and nut and bolt it every time you run it out?, are you set up with nitrogen bottles for the air jacks and the misc bits and pieces for those or will you need to buy them? Can you replace all the safety stuff that times out yourself (seats, harnesses, fire system). What about Modas for talking to the car? Do you need trackside support? If you go for a weekend then you have food and accommodation to add to your travel costs, and for the support people.
How you answer these will impact your hourly rate but thats not an exhaustive list, just some of the stuff people forget about. You can easily get a cost down to a nice looking figure but only if you start running different cost groups for each area of ownership and pretend that none are related. Driving, travel, transport, maintenance, refreshes, repairs, consumables can all be made to look nice and respectable individually pretty easily if they stand alone. There is a lot to think about and none of this yet includes for anything breaking or you going off.
Once you have a number worked out, multiply it by 3 and you will probably be about there. I have had 6 cups so far, both 996 and 997 and there are always over 10 cars at any one time where mine are kept.
That being said, look at how solid the car is in terms of ownership and race support. It has this for a reason (especially when you consider its not a cheap experience) and that is because the cars are truly fantastic. Fast, rewarding and most of all, safe.
Edited to add: Excluding the trailering and the 997 Cup gearbox (which is a special case), a GT3 isnt significantly less expensive to run round a track than a Cup if it were to be run as hard. Where the difference comes in is that most users do not drive their cars any where near as hard as a Cup gets used while the signal to replace or check something is usually an odd noise or something breaking. The level at which a Cup can run is in large part a driver of the the costs to use it. There is usually about a 10 second delta (existing in the cars) between modified GT3s ( and on sticky tyres) and a similar model Cup over a 1m50sec (or so) lap length in my experience.
Joking aside, there are way too many variables to consider so its impossible to make a guide relevant, thats partly the reason that its never talked about publicly much. Do you want to do track days, do you want to race, do you want to be near the front? (note: it gets old stretching rubber life out and just being out there for the participation with others who are playing harder a lot faster than you may think)
Expect to struggle to keep it fuelled and in rubber while dealing with brake consumables and fluid changes (engine/gearbox/brake) for £1000/hr over the term even if you scrimp and run on worn out rubber. And if you havent driven one before prepare to waste a load of rubber at first. Its all well working to costs excluding those consumables but its those that you will feel most quickly. If you arent ready for that it can sour the experience very quickly. I have seen it plenty of times.
Beyond that, some stuff to think about ref operating costs:
What are you going to do regarding refreshes? Pay extra for a car with everything rebuilt and then ignore the future rebuild costs by trying to move it on before the clock runs out? If so you can kick the £/hr rate down the road but it will catch you on the resale price. Theres no avoiding it completely. This is for both Engine and Gearbox, and acutely the latter on the 997. Assuming you are racing then you are almost at the £1000/hr figure for refreshes on these two items and nothing else. Not racing, then expect longer on the engine, not on the gearbox though or you just end up with bigger bills when you do pull it than if you had run the maintenance properly. Where you are planning on running the car will also impact these costs. Does engine and gearbox need to remain sealed or can you let anyone rake about inside? Is there anyone near you who can rake inside or will you have to travel with the car for work on it?
Trailer costs including buying one and a vehicle to tow or do you have those already and just need to factor in the hauling costs or trackside storage?
Can you spanner yourself, can you spanner at least to the levels of the consumables (fluids/wheels/brakes), can you do geo checks and nut and bolt it every time you run it out?, are you set up with nitrogen bottles for the air jacks and the misc bits and pieces for those or will you need to buy them? Can you replace all the safety stuff that times out yourself (seats, harnesses, fire system). What about Modas for talking to the car? Do you need trackside support? If you go for a weekend then you have food and accommodation to add to your travel costs, and for the support people.
How you answer these will impact your hourly rate but thats not an exhaustive list, just some of the stuff people forget about. You can easily get a cost down to a nice looking figure but only if you start running different cost groups for each area of ownership and pretend that none are related. Driving, travel, transport, maintenance, refreshes, repairs, consumables can all be made to look nice and respectable individually pretty easily if they stand alone. There is a lot to think about and none of this yet includes for anything breaking or you going off.
Once you have a number worked out, multiply it by 3 and you will probably be about there. I have had 6 cups so far, both 996 and 997 and there are always over 10 cars at any one time where mine are kept.
That being said, look at how solid the car is in terms of ownership and race support. It has this for a reason (especially when you consider its not a cheap experience) and that is because the cars are truly fantastic. Fast, rewarding and most of all, safe.
Edited to add: Excluding the trailering and the 997 Cup gearbox (which is a special case), a GT3 isnt significantly less expensive to run round a track than a Cup if it were to be run as hard. Where the difference comes in is that most users do not drive their cars any where near as hard as a Cup gets used while the signal to replace or check something is usually an odd noise or something breaking. The level at which a Cup can run is in large part a driver of the the costs to use it. There is usually about a 10 second delta (existing in the cars) between modified GT3s ( and on sticky tyres) and a similar model Cup over a 1m50sec (or so) lap length in my experience.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 7th May 12:04
fioran0 said:
Edited to add: Excluding the trailering and the 997 Cup gearbox (which is a special case), a GT3 isnt significantly less expensive to run round a track than a Cup if it were to be run as hard. Where the difference comes in is that most users do not drive their cars any where near as hard as a Cup gets used while the signal to replace or check something is usually an odd noise or something breaking. The level at which a Cup can run is in large part a driver of the the costs to use it. There is usually about a 10 second delta (existing in the cars) between modified GT3s ( and on sticky tyres) and a similar model Cup over a 1m50sec (or so) lap length in my experience.
Thanks for the excellent post. I'm particularly drawn to your final comment which I assume is in relation to the 997. I managed to bring that delta down to less than a couple of seconds between the road and race car on a 996 which demonstrates how closely the two are related. (And yes, having run both I can confirm the road GT3 is as expensive to run when used in the same manner as a Cup).Indeed, an excellent post - as always may I add.
You are also nearly spot on regarding the lap times - my qualifying time at the Red Bull Ring in a 3.6 GT3 RS 01:46, Cup Car (albeit a 3.8) 01:37 on old tyres, I reckon an 01:34 or even 01:33 would be possible with new tyres and more talent.
You are also nearly spot on regarding the lap times - my qualifying time at the Red Bull Ring in a 3.6 GT3 RS 01:46, Cup Car (albeit a 3.8) 01:37 on old tyres, I reckon an 01:34 or even 01:33 would be possible with new tyres and more talent.
I am in the process on buying a Cup car (looking at a couple of gen 1 examples and a Gen 2)
Moving up from the world of CSCC racing in Modern Classics, either car will be eligible for a season in New Millenium at CSCC as I get used to it and get coaching before I move to other types of racing.
Is there any advice here on what track days tyres to run on a Cup for racing if you can't use slicks and also exhaust bolt ons for either model and where to get them from. I know Parr do a Gen 2 997 cup special for a sensible price.
Many thanks
David
Moving up from the world of CSCC racing in Modern Classics, either car will be eligible for a season in New Millenium at CSCC as I get used to it and get coaching before I move to other types of racing.
Is there any advice here on what track days tyres to run on a Cup for racing if you can't use slicks and also exhaust bolt ons for either model and where to get them from. I know Parr do a Gen 2 997 cup special for a sensible price.
Many thanks
David
Tyres:
You will really need to use slicks. You won't get much out of the car without them but also the car will shred road tyres. I once ran a set of MPSC's I had no use for on one of my Cups. The car literally ripped them to pieces.
If its a budgetary thing, you can run take offs from race teams for a fraction of the cost of new slicks while you find your feet. It can save costs quite considerably but with such variable rubber it can be hard to learn the car.
Exhausts:
Go somewhere to get some fabricated for what you need, or ring round and ask places supporting Cups what they use to get round noise issues. Either of these options will see you running a steampunk contraption that hangs from the rear of the car.
You can also run a "quiet" exhaust system from Porsche Motorsport. It is basically the additional side cans from the street cars fitted into the factory system delivered on the car. If you look in the usual places you may be able to find take off street cans to fit instead of buying new pieces, or find a complete street system you can use to replace the entire system on at the moment. Box the other stuff up for when you do need it.
You will really need to use slicks. You won't get much out of the car without them but also the car will shred road tyres. I once ran a set of MPSC's I had no use for on one of my Cups. The car literally ripped them to pieces.
If its a budgetary thing, you can run take offs from race teams for a fraction of the cost of new slicks while you find your feet. It can save costs quite considerably but with such variable rubber it can be hard to learn the car.
Exhausts:
Go somewhere to get some fabricated for what you need, or ring round and ask places supporting Cups what they use to get round noise issues. Either of these options will see you running a steampunk contraption that hangs from the rear of the car.
You can also run a "quiet" exhaust system from Porsche Motorsport. It is basically the additional side cans from the street cars fitted into the factory system delivered on the car. If you look in the usual places you may be able to find take off street cans to fit instead of buying new pieces, or find a complete street system you can use to replace the entire system on at the moment. Box the other stuff up for when you do need it.
Thanks guys for the responses, it wasnt a budget driven question re tyres it was eligibility.
I plan to run the Cup in CSCC New Millenium for season whilst I get used to the car and you cant run slicks in those races. I can build up skill on slocks and wets with my coach. I currently run an old Porsche in Modern Classics on Dunlop Direzza DZ03Gs and was wondering what track day tyre might work best.
I plan to run the Cup in CSCC New Millenium for season whilst I get used to the car and you cant run slicks in those races. I can build up skill on slocks and wets with my coach. I currently run an old Porsche in Modern Classics on Dunlop Direzza DZ03Gs and was wondering what track day tyre might work best.
You'd probably be better using a Carrera for that series, which can work ok on road legal tyres (MPSC for example). It's worth asking Baz at Hartech as I believe he's thinking about selling their car. It was on slicks last time I drove it and it went very well but they have all the data on how to make it win on MSPC's. It also has the advantage of fitting into Porsche Club Championship regs so you could do a few races in that too. The 1 hour TV programme dedicated to the championship races (which are shown in full with commentary, in car footage, interviews etc) at the first meeting at Brands Hatch is being shown on Friday at 5.50pm on Motors TV (I just searched Sky for Porsche and the club championship came up so I've series linked it) - have a watch if you've not seen it before. 25 minute full on sprint races, with some very good drivers and very close racing 
OK, I admit it, I am missing it 
Running road tyres on a Cup car will mean quite a bit of time learning how to set it up (I doubt anyone has any data), only to have to re-learn it all for when it's properly set up. It may be a little quicker around a lap than a Carrera but mainly due to the power on the straights, which means you're not learning as much or as fluid of a technique, particularly if you're having to restrain the performance to preserve the tyres so they last the duration of the race.
OK, I admit it, I am missing it Running road tyres on a Cup car will mean quite a bit of time learning how to set it up (I doubt anyone has any data), only to have to re-learn it all for when it's properly set up. It may be a little quicker around a lap than a Carrera but mainly due to the power on the straights, which means you're not learning as much or as fluid of a technique, particularly if you're having to restrain the performance to preserve the tyres so they last the duration of the race.
As said, you can't run slicks in that series so that's out of the window. You will just need to work out a decent set up on a track day tyres. It's no big deal, certainly not a problem (other than you will of course be slower).
You may want to consider the rarer GT4 with manual gearbox. The CSCC is a very much a friendly amateur/friendly/low cost series so they may have issues with cars that are too fast if it's to the detriment of the series. Having said that, i plan to take the NSX out which has a sequential and more power than 997 Cup, so maybe i just want less competition
You may want to consider the rarer GT4 with manual gearbox. The CSCC is a very much a friendly amateur/friendly/low cost series so they may have issues with cars that are too fast if it's to the detriment of the series. Having said that, i plan to take the NSX out which has a sequential and more power than 997 Cup, so maybe i just want less competition
DG27 said:
Thanks
CSCC have confirmed that a Gen 2 Cup can run in their series next year so that is ok but not on slicks
You cant run Cup cars in Porsche GB club championship so that is out
It has otherwise to be Brit Car Trophy or AMOC series
D
Where have you raced before? I see you have an M3 in your profile.CSCC have confirmed that a Gen 2 Cup can run in their series next year so that is ok but not on slicks
You cant run Cup cars in Porsche GB club championship so that is out
It has otherwise to be Brit Car Trophy or AMOC series
D
DG27 said:
Thanks
CSCC have confirmed that a Gen 2 Cup can run in their series next year so that is ok but not on slicks
You cant run Cup cars in Porsche GB club championship so that is out
It has otherwise to be Brit Car Trophy or AMOC series
D
You can run Cup cars on slicks in Castle Combe's Sports and GT's Championship CSCC have confirmed that a Gen 2 Cup can run in their series next year so that is ok but not on slicks
You cant run Cup cars in Porsche GB club championship so that is out
It has otherwise to be Brit Car Trophy or AMOC series
D
Can I jump in on this thread and ask what are the chances of getting a Cup car and converting her across to a more road going car ie more in line with a RS. I am really talking about getting two seats in and some basic comforts such as radio and carpets and ripping out the electric switches.
With RS prices ever spiralling and me wanting to own one and track it before I pop my clogs I am looking at every feasible option. I want to keep my 996 GT3 long term so a 997 it has to be. An RS or a Cup car would be fine. Surely second hand parts from a normal 996 would work for interior trim et al.
How unfeasible is this???
Pip
With RS prices ever spiralling and me wanting to own one and track it before I pop my clogs I am looking at every feasible option. I want to keep my 996 GT3 long term so a 997 it has to be. An RS or a Cup car would be fine. Surely second hand parts from a normal 996 would work for interior trim et al.
How unfeasible is this???
Pip
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