911 (997) Turbo upgraded and tuned by DMS - excellent result

[TB993tt]

Isysman said:

Is he the bloke who had his engine removed and run on a engine dyno? I heard the engine had to be rebuilt half way through as they trashed it. Not sure if it's the same person?

Your ignorance on this subject is pretty awesome even by PH "what's my car worth ?" standards.

It was probably my engine which you refer to as being "trashed" on an engine dyno, a simpleton's explanation for how professional engine builders develop a tuned specification, usually they use their own test engines and run them for long periods on the engine dyno (reliability testing components and developing the engine mapping) but I let them use mine since its configuration was (then) unique, suffice to say after they "trashed" it (AKA finished the development) they carried out a full new blueprint spec rebuild including pistons cylinders and anything else which had any wear.

Isysman said:

That's a lot of money to spend on an engine that only has that power. I've seen many tuners online selling kits that offer 700-780bhp for about 6 grand (in the US) Sharkwerks for one and Fabspeed is another.

Your journey is just beginning, what Nick spent is about par for a properly built turbo Mezger set up as you would find out after a few years blowing 6 grand here and 5 grand there and finally realising (probably after being embarrassed at Bruntingthorpe a few times) that if you really wanted this much real power then the bullet has to be bitten.
BTW how is your clutch ? With your 820NM the clutch should be slipping for fun, the 997.1 turbo clutch will slip at around 700NM, that is the next £2.5K you need to find (if you did indeed have over 700NM)

Edited by TB993tt on Tuesday 3rd June 17:40

[Isysman]

TB993tt said:

Your journey is just beginning, what Nick spent is about par for a properly built turbo Mezger set up as you would find out after a few years blowing 6 grand here and 5 grand there and finally realising (probably after being embarrassed at Bruntingthorpe a few times) that if you really wanted this much real power then the bullet has to be bitten.
BTW how is your clutch ? With your 820NM the clutch should be slipping for fun, the 997.1 turbo clutch will slip at around 700NM, that is the next £2.5K you need to find (if you did indeed have over 700NM)

Edited by TB993tt on Tuesday 3rd June 17:40

At no point have I claimed to be an expert unlike others who offer opinion without backing it up with anything substantive. I merely showed the results of my time spent at DMS in a video. And along the way I have pointed out that other people's statements have lacked evidence.

I'd be happy to take my car to Bruntingthorpe, I don't see how I would be embarrassed though, should a car with 650hp best mine I wouldn't feel embarrassed. Also I started this thread to show my video, not to debate if the facts were real or not.

Everything about the way you respond has negative connotations to it. All designed to discredit. 'Blowing 6 grand here' you have to find 2.5 grand for your clutch etc. It's pathetic really. This kind of nonsense is the reason I was hesitant about posting on here in the first place.

[TB993tt]

Isysman said:

At no point have I claimed to be an expert unlike others who offer opinion without backing it up with anything substantive. I merely showed the results of my time spent at DMS in a video. And along the way I have pointed out that other people's statements have lacked evidence.

Nah, you came on here trying to shove your fairy dust 620hp down people's throats, you are typical of first timer who has sipped some snake oil, been going on for years on the forums.

Isysman said:

I'd be happy to take my car to Bruntingthorpe, I don't see how I would be embarrassed though, should a car with 650hp best mine I wouldn't feel embarrassed.

The guy (in this thread) with his 550PS car will be faster (top end) than yours, that will be your realisation and embarrassment.

Isysman said:

Also I started this thread to show my video, not to debate if the facts were real or not.

bks, you wanted to tell everyone how clever you were getting 620hp for £2.50

Isysman said:

Everything about the way you respond has negative connotations to it. All designed to discredit.

Yup, as I said these sorts of claims do need discrediting to save the next guy who spouts about his fairy dust, you should really have taken earlier advice and just enjoyed your car but no you wanted a scrap about hp..... seen it all before.

Isysman said:

'Blowing 6 grand here' you have to find 2.5 grand for your clutch etc. It's pathetic really. This kind of nonsense

I think it was you who started spouting the "6 grand" nonsense above, I am merely trying to point out that this is how it starts and it ends up costing a lot more (hence the 2.5K you would need for your clutch)

[Isysman]

Still you've showed no evidence that can disprove what I put up. I'm not saying I'm correct or the figures are correct, I'm simply saying that neither you or anyone else has showed any EVIDENCE to support your theories. Name calling to try to make people look bad is not proof (in fact it's what people usually do when they have no proof like lawyers etc). And your comments about another car with 550 hp beating mine, well how could you possibly know that? You just make up information and pass it off as fact. We are supposed to take your word for it because you are tb993tt? Typical troll as far as I can see.

Also you going on about me being embarrassed shows to us that this is all about ego for you. It's about winning the argument, showing people on here how smart/tough/clever you are. Do you feel insecure often?

Anyone else still reading this I'll put up some other info from other companies. Although I'm sure the usual suspects will still rubbish it because they know better. I'm surprised you don't have your own business your so knowledgeable?

This is a link to TechArt website showing they are offering performance increases. Yes it's the newer engine but it gives an idea that power gains like mine are possible.

http://www.techart.de/en/techart-showroom/programs...

Edited by Isysman on Wednesday 4th June 13:24

[russg2009]

Would be happy to run mine too that would be very interesting!

Isysman said:

IMI A said:

lets run your car against Snicks (similar power to yours 650bhp albeit 30 bhp advantage) at Brunters and lets end the speculation. Happy to bring my car if required so there is a stock car there as a benchmark.

What is a 'snicks' and what is a 'brunters'?

[Adam B]

Not sure how this degenerated so quickly.

Think people are being a little harsh on Isysman, he has had a remap done, he is not DMS.

Isysman - I think people are just running out of patience with this debate (not your thread) as it has been discussed many times before. Certain people on here and certain respected tuners have a lot more knowledge than you (and I) and quite frankly cannot be arsed to post evidence up so I would suggest asking for it is not productive.

My layman's view:
Remapping is not an art, most companies adjust similar things. There are only so many things to adjust.
Most tuners claim high numbers for PR purposes.
RR can be made to read whatever people want when adjusting from power at wheels to power at crank.
Tuners may quote power numbers that are achievable only for short times in certain gears, doesn't make them wrong, just not sustainable values or comparable to factory figures whcih are sustainable,
If people I respect,eg 9E, state 550bhp is about the max with remap/exhaust I believe them.

Hope the thread continues as I am still interested in your findings

[Isysman]

Adam B said:

Not sure how this degenerated so quickly.

Think people are being a little harsh on Isysman, he has had a remap done, he is not DMS.

Isysman - I think people are just running out of patience with this debate (not your thread) as it has been discussed many times before. Certain people on here and certain respected tuners have a lot more knowledge than you (and I) and quite frankly cannot be arsed to post evidence up so I would suggest asking for it is not productive.

My layman's view:
Remapping is not an art, most companies adjust similar things. There are only so many things to adjust.
Most tuners claim high numbers for PR purposes.
RR can be made to read whatever people want when adjusting from power at wheels to power at crank.
Tuners may quote power numbers that are achievable only for short times in certain gears, doesn't make them wrong, just not sustainable values or comparable to factory figures whcih are sustainable,
If people I respect,eg 9E, state 550bhp is about the max with remap/exhaust I believe them.

Hope the thread continues as I am still interested in your findings

Asking someone who is not an expert in their field to back up what they are saying with some proof is standard. I go to a specialist when I'm sick, not the guy who swears by a particular specialist. And you are telling me that there is nothing they can't put on here like I have done on various occasions to back up what they are saying? Nothing on the Internet, really?

I know of 9E but did you know that DMS have been around a lot longer than they have? Rob and the owner of 9E were friends I believe.

I'm going to post some videos on here, I thought I had already but it turns out it was another thread on another forum.

Edited by Isysman on Wednesday 4th June 16:01

[Isysman]

DMS tuned Porsche 997 Turbo v 650hp Nissan GTR

This car only had a remap, no hardware upgrades

[Isysman]

Same DMS tuned Porsche 997 Turbo v 750hp Nissan GTR!!!!

Please note people uploading the videos are the ones that claim the power figures of the Nissans, not the Porsche owner.

[Adam B]

Isysman said:

And you are telling me that there is nothing they can't put on here like I have done on various occasions to back up what they are saying? Nothing on the Internet, really?

I am not telling you anything, I was trying to diffuse the situation and defend you somewhat.

I won't bother in future

[IMI A]

Adam B said:

Isysman said:

And you are telling me that there is nothing they can't put on here like I have done on various occasions to back up what they are saying? Nothing on the Internet, really?

I am not telling you anything, I was trying to diffuse the situation and defend you somewhat.

I won't bother in future

What are they saying that you do not agree with or want proof of? Call up Cargraphic, Ruf, RS Tuning, FVD, 9e, Parr Motorsport, Manthey, JZM etc yourself and they will tell you that 550bhp is all thats available from stock turbos on a 997 turbo. I have investigated this thoroughly and been told this by 9e, RS tuning/Parr and FVD via Nick.

Your dyno result doesn't really mean anything as the best way to prove what sort of real hp any car has is 0-300kph over repeated runs at somewhere like Bunters (be great if someone on PH knows how to organise this for a bit of fun as I've been driving around everywhere like a pussycat for ages).

The 997 turbo is a difficult car to tune properly with VTGs mainly due to the extra heat VTGs produce in comparison to conventional turbos. I take everything tuners in the US claim re 997 turbo HP with a pinch of salt.

When modifying stock turbos on a 997 RS tuning/Cargraphic stage 4 kit actually fix the VTG turbine blades in the largest circumference setting after modifying both ends of the turbo - benefit is less heat and the turbos are modified to be larger. They get 624bhp from this set up and the kit alone is Euros 30k. I am happy to keep an open mind but personally I think its a bit naughty of DMS to claim the same hp as other more established tuning houses from stock turbos but as I said before lets end the speculation and get the cars up to an airfield. I don't see DMS coming on here and defending your claims by the way which I would do in their shoes as if they have achieved what was previously unachievable they'll sell kits like yours like hotcakes.

Techart also charge a fortune for a 600bhp tune by the way and again by changing the stock turbos on the 997.1 to achieve this sort of power - they charge circa $30,000 for the privilege of having circa another 100-120bhp. http://www.roadandtrack.com/special-reports/techar...

So either the top end European tuners are not telling the truth or the US and may be DMS are slightly exaggerating their claims. This has been done to death and those vids you have uploaded do not really mean thing as we do not know for sure what sort of fuel, tyres, tune etc any of those cars are running.

Edited by IMI A on Wednesday 4th June 22:39

[IMI A]

In the uploaded vids the 997 is a gen 2 car with PDK. They're pretty rapid out of the box. By way of example a gen 1 997 turbo with 620bhp would struggle to keep up with a gen 2 stock 997 turbo S due to the rapid gear changes of the PDK car.

[Isysman]

Like I said from the beginning, I am not an expert, and I never made any claims, I simply took my car to a tuners and filmed the results, edited them into a video and posted it on here. Then I simply asked all the people who were discrediting the results to show me some evidence which hasn't happened so far.

I also said that I am happy to go to a track somewhere to do this. If it's after the end of June however I'll be out of the country with work. After that it would have to be after the second week in September which is when I return.

And as far as the results, I was happy with my stock Turbo, I had this package done for a couple of reasons, but mainly as an exercise to see what could be achieved and to document it and to eventually put it into an article. I know the car is much faster than before and I'm extremely happy with the results.

And as for the videos, well I think they speak for themselves. A stock PDK Turbo wouldn't come close to beating a 750hp GTR. I've seen videos of those kinds of cars racing.

[Callughan]

IMI A said:

In the uploaded vids the 997 is a gen 2 car with PDK. They're pretty rapid out of the box. By way of example a gen 1 997 turbo with 620bhp would struggle to keep up with a gen 2 stock 997 turbo S due to the rapid gear changes of the PDK car.

Gen 2 Turbo 'S'

It belongs to Kav who is on PH.

What is the debate here if DMS is crap?

[TB993tt]

Isysman said:

I've seen videos of those kinds of cars racing.

Herein lies part of the problem, you've watched some videos and your "research" seems to be all internet based....

FYI the videos you posted were at vmax Hammer, KAV1 owned the 997 turbo S, he is a fast and aggressive mofo who enjoyed gunning the top corner at the max - he got the drop on the GTR at the beginning of the long straight hence why the GTR could not catch him.

KAV1 probably did have around 580PS (DMS claim) as his terminal speeds were 206 speedo so about 201 GPS which is about right for 997 turbo with 580PS - the Nissan, who knows what this car had/did ? It showed 208 on the speedo so maybe it did 203 GPS which may be OK for a 750hp NIssan ? My 2009 standard GTR 530PS managed 183mph here vs 530PS 997 turbo at about 196mph...... so ?

On that day you could have shown a video of KAV1 destroying my 7GT2 using his LC/PDK and cornering prowess, he fished the straight a hundred metres in front - it was humiliating especially since I had 120hp more than him which was evidenced by 8mph higher trap speed.

[TB993tt]

Callughan said:

What is the debate here if DMS is crap?

Nah, it is about the OP believing he has got 620PS using standard 997.1 VTGs..... DMS are not crap they do what they say and they give a print out from their RR, can't fault them for that.

[Isysman]

TB993tt said:

Nah, it is about the OP believing he has got 620PS using standard 997.1 VTGs..... DMS are not crap they do what they say and they give a print out from their RR, can't fault them for that.

Like I have said from the beginning, I simply posted a video with the results of my upgrades and a rolling road result. Then it was rubbished by most, and I simply asked those who claimed to be experts on this forum to show something related to how it might not happen. Nothing has been produced. I have posted various things to show how it might be possible, and I have posted videos to show the results of DMS upgrades and people are now downplaying the videos (and disputing the claimed power of the GTRs haha)

I know the car is a PDK, but those Nissans are also paddle shift cars and there is no way that a standard PDK Turbo would beat the other cars. Also the fact that the videos were shot from inside the cars with the power claims gives more validity to the claims (than if the video was shot in the Porsche).

The interesting thing is (to me at least) is how people will play down anything put in front of them so they can continue to believe their own version. Also I have seen most of the people disputing the results of my RR sessions say derogatory things about DMS and earlier in the thread about about Kline Innovation who supplied the exhaust for my car.

I'm not defending DMS, and I am open to the idea that the figures may or may not be out. I saw different figures come up each time they ran the car so I understand there is most likely leeway either way.

The DMS Tuned PDK Porsche was claimed to have 580hp (according to another post on here, not from me) and that is in line with what they told me. They can achieve approx 560-580hp with a remap alone. And 600+ with intercoolers and exhaust/air filter upgrades.

This is an argument that cannot be won it seems. Rolling Road results, videos of DMS cars beating GTRs with huge claimed HP figures, screen grabs from third party companies also offering similar performance gains with similar hardware changes, do not it seems prove anything. Anything and everything will be disqualified.

What I can say for sure (although even my own experience has been disqualified as 'placebo affect'), is that my car, which was a monster already as a stock 997 Turbo, has been transformed and the acceleration is almost violent when your foot is pressed down fully. The sound of the exhaust is amazing, when you hit 3,000, the growling erupts into a howl, it's the car I always hoped for!

[Moosh]

Isysman said:

my car, which was a monster already as a stock 997 Turbo, has been transformed and the acceleration is almost violent when your foot is pressed down fully. The sound of the exhaust is amazing, when you hit 3,000, the growling erupts into a howl, it's the car I always hoped for!

And this is what is all about!

Enjoy

[tjlees]

IMI A said:

...
Your dyno result doesn't really mean anything as the best way to prove what sort of real hp any car has is 0-300kph over repeated runs at somewhere like Bunters (be great if someone on PH knows how to organise this for a bit of fun as I've been driving around everywhere like a pussycat for ages).
...

Either go to Craig on a Vmax, or go through a tuning company, professional driving (e.g. Dom Palmer), or your own company - iirc correctly it's £80 per hour minimum two hours and watch out for everyone else specially the bikes! I've used bpg many a time for driver training and tuning.

You right about the true test is 0-300 kph and In fact Ken of 9e quotes his packages in these terms e.g. 9e 35 using standard Vtg turbos is 0-300 in, you've guest it, 35 seconds. Btw his 9e15 looks awesome!

OP enjoy your car, it sounds like a monster. Bring it to the next Vmax (www.vxam200.com) and enjoy its full potential. Craig has vboxes if you are interested in the times. I only managed to get 0-100 in 7.5 for 997.2 turbo - must be bpg loose gravel

[v8-fettler]

Crikey!! I just turned up on this thread as I too was shocked at the gains for such little mods. Not since the first incarnations of the 306 GTDI or Golf 1.8td have such percentages been claimed from 'removing the air box cover', or fitting a K&N!!

Seriously though, it all falls into complete insignificance unless you plan on dragging against simillarly minded on a runway.

A friend of mine drives many super cars, and twice now, I've kept pace, or even left him in a Mini. Firstly, the R8 V8, I took on through the twisty damp roads of Yorkshire, and kept up in all areas apart from a straight line, and in the wife's cooper (2007). More recently, in a 2016 JCW Mini, I left him in his Vanquish. Again road conditions levelled the field somewhat, but there's also no accounting for talent. What you pay £30,000 for in power, could be gained for £600 in lessons. I'm quicker round the Kart track, so in theory, should be quicker round the track (never actually timed out runs in the Atom at Silverstone), but I'm pretty sure this is why I can get away in a £30k car, from one that costs 5 times as much.

I'm about to buy a Turbo, so I was looking to see what simple gains could be made, and the best thing I've seen is that report, which shows even with intercoolers, the DMS 'exhaust and tune' is only 0.1 seconds quicker to 60, and 0.2 to 100. I'd back myself that my reaction time is somewhat quicker than average, and save myself the £10k. I'd also bet that if you really cared about speed, you'd rip out the satnav and stereo speakers, and that alone would probably give your bhp/tonne a good hand up.

There seems to me to be two curves in car life, the one that will ways have you acclimatising to a faster car. You buy a new car, after a few years, you've tamed it properly, and then need something quicker. I'm pretty sure that's just how it is.
Then the second curve, the 'can I be arsed' curve that comes down. At some point, it'll intersect with the former, and you simply won't give enough of a st to be bothered about it. I hope this is much later in life, but outside influences like finances, kids, divorces, incarceration etc might just speed things up.

So stop measuring your man-sausages on here, go and drive, and when you mug someone in what should be a faster car, you can smile to yourself and thInk 'I'd have been a better driver than Lewis/Jenson/Nigel etc etc.....

It won't matter, to anyone but you. So just enjoy it....

Edited by v8-fettler on Monday 2nd January 05:18