911 (997) Turbo upgraded and tuned by DMS - excellent result
Discussion
hazard996 said:
The prob is that posts like this will get people to think that is is possible to get 620hp from a remap and exhaust. If you are , OP, writing and article then ask the question why imv number 1 tuner (9e) in the UK and heading towards Europe where the likes of RS Tuning are highly respected , both of these companies get around 550ps. It's not because they are rubbish, it's because they have done it and there real world numbers backing it up. I know from chatting with ken at 9e that even their base package needs an upgrade clutch immediately. I do have a 9e car so you can call me biased but then their records speak for themselves.
Yes this is my point you have companies like the ones you have mentioned but then you also have RUF, FVD, Techart, use to be Gemballa, the list go's on and on. TB993tt said:
Generally rolling roads are calibrated to be able to match manufacturers hp quotes with a 4th gear 10 second run,
interesting - do you mean that a RR firm will run a stock 480 car, use the consequent readings to measure it as 480, and then run the remapped car using same measurement settings to get the new figure?(I know little about tuning other than to take absolute figures from a RR with a bucket of salt, especially those performed by the company you have just bought a remap from)
s3nick said:
They are meant to be but are they?
I dont think they are.
Have you been to Bucharest to see this for yourself?
P.S. Are you that gullible that you believe everything you hear and read?
Edited by s3nick on Wednesday 14th May 10:09
Apparently you've never had one, but you talk like you are an expert, where does this knowledge come from? I don't claim to be an expert, I have no affiliation, I am always researching before writing any article. So feedback on many issues with a particular exhaust manufacturer (which I was unable to find before choosing them) would be useful information.
Also if you work in the industry or make exhausts for a profession then maybe I can interview you about what makes a good exhaust? So I'll happily listen to what you have to say. But you need to back it up with evidence. Email me your credentials and a contact number and we'll chat. You have seemingly very strong views on this company, if I suspect they are unfounded then I'm sure I won't hear from you but I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
Edited by Isysman on Wednesday 14th May 11:32
RAWENG said:
Kline innovation exhausts are retailed by Topgear of Bridport www.topgear.co.uk. Topgear own Kline who manufacture the exhausts in Bucharest. Top Gear MD Stephen Kilcoin has a 997.1T and has run with a Kilne installed for years, I think he had done 80k miles last time I spoke with him. The exhaust is currently £1800 inc vat and if purchased through top gear entitles you to £350 half price re-map . The exhaust can be installed at one of Topgears branches. I wish to state that I am in no way connected with Topgear or Kline just a satisfied customer.
s3nick its always interesting to hear another point of view , however just bashing a product that you have no personal experience of and simply read some bad on line postings can be very damaging to a business. Several negative postings from a person such as your good self can trash a perfectly good product and waste all the time and effort in developing it and its market.
In my view the Kline is a well made product. I fitted the system myself and it fitted perfectly. I found both Topgear and Felix at Kline easy to contact and helpful and am confident that the backup is there should I have a problem. I am also aware that each Cat unit can easily be replaced in 15 minutes should a problem occur as they un bolt from the system independently , simples.
I have also used DMS for diesel tuning and know them to be a totally professional company. However I also have a lot of rolling road experience and know that a rolling road result can be +/- 20% of actual peak power. Kline also has some power plots on its website and IIRC they quote +73bhp and 55ib ft for their system using 200 cell cats and High flow air filter and a re-map. Upgrading the intercoolers must give a tad more but I have no experience of this.
Was your car put on a rolling road afterwards? Did you upgrade anything else (air filter, intercoolers)? What was the claimed power after the remap? I think I read 559bhp from Kline?s3nick its always interesting to hear another point of view , however just bashing a product that you have no personal experience of and simply read some bad on line postings can be very damaging to a business. Several negative postings from a person such as your good self can trash a perfectly good product and waste all the time and effort in developing it and its market.
In my view the Kline is a well made product. I fitted the system myself and it fitted perfectly. I found both Topgear and Felix at Kline easy to contact and helpful and am confident that the backup is there should I have a problem. I am also aware that each Cat unit can easily be replaced in 15 minutes should a problem occur as they un bolt from the system independently , simples.
I have also used DMS for diesel tuning and know them to be a totally professional company. However I also have a lot of rolling road experience and know that a rolling road result can be +/- 20% of actual peak power. Kline also has some power plots on its website and IIRC they quote +73bhp and 55ib ft for their system using 200 cell cats and High flow air filter and a re-map. Upgrading the intercoolers must give a tad more but I have no experience of this.
Isysman said:
s3nick said:
They are meant to be but are they?
I dont think they are.
Have you been to Bucharest to see this for yourself?
P.S. Are you that gullible that you believe everything you hear and read?
Edited by s3nick on Wednesday 14th May 10:09
Apparently you've never had one, but you talk like you are an expert, where does this knowledge come from? I don't claim to be an expert, I have no affiliation, I am always research before writing any article. So feedback on many issues with a particular exhaust manufacturer (which I was unable to find before choosing them) would be useful information.
Also if you work in the industry or make exhausts for a profession then maybe I can interview you about what makes a good exhaust? So I'll happily listen to what you have to say. But you need to back it up with evidence. Email me your credentials and a contact number and we'll chat. You have seemingly very strong views on this company, if I suspect they are unfounded then I'm sure I won't here from you but I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
The tuning industry is shark infested and many companies out there making unrealistic claims re HP. I'd be surprised if your car is making more than 550bhp. Best way to asses horsepower is take it to brunters and measure 0-300kph as mentioned before. Have a look at VMAX events
Isysman. Only BMS filter and zorst fitted and No I have not had the opportunity to get the car on the rolling road, my guess is its about 520bhp I also hate watching the rolling road process. I build new engines for Caterham customers and then have to watch them been mapped and this usually ends up with numerous full rpm power runs to fine tune the map and valve timing to satisfy the customer. Without a generic map we have to start with a base map then develop a map to suit the spec of the engine, everything gets very hot and usually burns out all the exhaust packing. I am always nervous when an engine is a full rpm on a rolling road or dyno as it sounds so cruel but in use I appreciate that it will be required to hold together at these revs for half a lap time and time again. On a typical track day its normal to complete at least 5 X 20min sessions and at least 6 track days per year, that a lotta revs.
IMI A said:
Nick is very knowledgeable indeed and has helped quite a few guys out with modding their cars. His internet manner can be abrupt at times but he's as nice as pie! He's managed to annoy the guys at Europipe too so its not only Kline. Europipe also make exhausts which many say are market leaders for the 997 turbo so pls do not be offended!
The tuning industry is shark infested and many companies out there making unrealistic claims re HP. I'd be surprised if your car is making more than 550bhp. Best way to asses horsepower is take it to brunters and measure 0-300kph as mentioned before. Have a look at VMAX events
I understand what you're saying however I'll put more value into what he's saying if he can A prove he's an expert in this field, or B show me evidence of what he's claiming. If he can't do either of those things then he's just offering his opinion as fact. The Internet if full of that. And as they say, opinions are like ahem, back bottoms, everyone has one. The tuning industry is shark infested and many companies out there making unrealistic claims re HP. I'd be surprised if your car is making more than 550bhp. Best way to asses horsepower is take it to brunters and measure 0-300kph as mentioned before. Have a look at VMAX events
His main gripes seemed to be their use of 304 stainless steel and a diameter of 63mm. I put it to him that 304 type stainless is used in the aerospace industry (where I used to work - military). Also that other well respected and long time businesses like Miltek use the same metal and dimensions. He doesn't claim to have any issues with Miltek, if not why not?
As for me, like I said, I'll get to the bottom of my car's power output, and I'll post the results on my YouTube page alongside the previous video. Because I'm happy to be proved wrong if that is indeed what I am. I'll always defer to experts in an area that I am not.
RAWENG said:
Isysman. Only BMS filter and zorst fitted and No I have not had the opportunity to get the car on the rolling road, my guess is its about 520bhp I also hate watching the rolling road process. I build new engines for Caterham customers and then have to watch them been mapped and this usually ends up with numerous full rpm power runs to fine tune the map and valve timing to satisfy the customer. Without a generic map we have to start with a base map then develop a map to suit the spec of the engine, everything gets very hot and usually burns out all the exhaust packing. I am always nervous when an engine is a full rpm on a rolling road or dyno as it sounds so cruel but in use I appreciate that it will be required to hold together at these revs for half a lap time and time again. On a typical track day its normal to complete at least 5 X 20min sessions and at least 6 track days per year, that a lotta revs.
Did you notice a huge difference in power output after these mods?The exhaust is without doubt the first upgrade on any VTG turbo. In an ideal world running catless would provide the best result, but MOT restrictions today prevent this.
Therefore the most free flowing exhaust will produce the best performance results. There is a misconception that 100 cell cats, or even 200 cell cats are all the same, even if produced by the same company. That is not true. 100 Cell cats example from HKS can come in different flavours depending on power requirements.
There are many 100 cell exhausts with silencers that also after 1000 miles are not the same as before the 1000 miles. Cats can range in price from £100 to nearly £1000. This is one of the difference in price in exhaust systems.
The best exhaust is the one that helps reduce back pressure the most, which contributes to increase in temps. Timing is a major problem with VTGs in terms of too much ignition and boost.
In terms of tuning, we never put our cars on a dyno - simply there is too much variation and it is not practical in getting airflow and frankly dyno numbers (except engine dyno runs) are for pub talk. All that matters is how the car drives under full load and that can be experienced by as some mentioned by attending Vmax etc.
Enjoy the car and don't worry about dyno numbers.
Ken
Therefore the most free flowing exhaust will produce the best performance results. There is a misconception that 100 cell cats, or even 200 cell cats are all the same, even if produced by the same company. That is not true. 100 Cell cats example from HKS can come in different flavours depending on power requirements.
There are many 100 cell exhausts with silencers that also after 1000 miles are not the same as before the 1000 miles. Cats can range in price from £100 to nearly £1000. This is one of the difference in price in exhaust systems.
The best exhaust is the one that helps reduce back pressure the most, which contributes to increase in temps. Timing is a major problem with VTGs in terms of too much ignition and boost.
In terms of tuning, we never put our cars on a dyno - simply there is too much variation and it is not practical in getting airflow and frankly dyno numbers (except engine dyno runs) are for pub talk. All that matters is how the car drives under full load and that can be experienced by as some mentioned by attending Vmax etc.
Enjoy the car and don't worry about dyno numbers.
Ken
Nineexcellence said:
The exhaust is without doubt the first upgrade on any VTG turbo. In an ideal world running catless would provide the best result, but MOT restrictions today prevent this.
Therefore the most free flowing exhaust will produce the best performance results. There is a misconception that 100 cell cats, or even 200 cell cats are all the same, even if produced by the same company. That is not true. 100 Cell cats example from HKS can come in different flavours depending on power requirements.
There are many 100 cell exhausts with silencers that also after 1000 miles are not the same as before the 1000 miles. Cats can range in price from £100 to nearly £1000. This is one of the difference in price in exhaust systems.
The best exhaust is the one that helps reduce back pressure the most, which contributes to increase in temps. Timing is a major problem with VTGs in terms of too much ignition and boost.
In terms of tuning, we never put our cars on a dyno - simply there is too much variation and it is not practical in getting airflow and frankly dyno numbers (except engine dyno runs) are for pub talk. All that matters is how the car drives under full load and that can be experienced by as some mentioned by attending Vmax etc.
Enjoy the car and don't worry about dyno numbers.
Ken
Thanks for the information, it's very interesting stuff. As far as how the car runs now, it's fantastic, lots more power and a great soundtrack, today was the first time ever since buying my Turbo that I drove with no music and the windows down just to listen to the exhaust note, really enjoyable. Therefore the most free flowing exhaust will produce the best performance results. There is a misconception that 100 cell cats, or even 200 cell cats are all the same, even if produced by the same company. That is not true. 100 Cell cats example from HKS can come in different flavours depending on power requirements.
There are many 100 cell exhausts with silencers that also after 1000 miles are not the same as before the 1000 miles. Cats can range in price from £100 to nearly £1000. This is one of the difference in price in exhaust systems.
The best exhaust is the one that helps reduce back pressure the most, which contributes to increase in temps. Timing is a major problem with VTGs in terms of too much ignition and boost.
In terms of tuning, we never put our cars on a dyno - simply there is too much variation and it is not practical in getting airflow and frankly dyno numbers (except engine dyno runs) are for pub talk. All that matters is how the car drives under full load and that can be experienced by as some mentioned by attending Vmax etc.
Enjoy the car and don't worry about dyno numbers.
Ken
The only reason I'd want to get it back on a rolling road would be for the article, whether it's important or not, it certainly is required for a magazine article as people need to be able to quantify any changes/gains.
s3nick said:
Yes this is my point you have companies like the ones you have mentioned but then you also have RUF, FVD, Techart, use to be Gemballa, the list go's on and on.
For the record I haven't had any communication from s3nick (or anyone else on this thread with regards to an interview. 
Por911T said:
To change the subject slightly - what the thoughts on the reasale of a modified car such as this ? Just curious on opinions .....
Depend who the works carried out by. Any work carried out by Cargraphic/RS Tuning, FVD, 9E, Manthey, ES Motorsport in no particular order etc i.e. the Tuning Elite I think sell but to a more limited audience. You will not get much more in terms of resale price than a like for like stock car though. Great for the buyer. What happens to these vtg's if the boost is increased too much? Do they melt? How come hardly any other manufacturers have tried them. The standard boost gauge on the 997 turbo.1 reads to 1.2 bar doesn't it? And the .2 bit is used by the chrono option?, if specced?. 997 turbo tuning seems to generate some agro all round seems to be.
Por911T said:
To change the subject slightly - what the thoughts on the reasale of a modified car such as this ? Just curious on opinions .....
I think there is a lot more caution when people buy Porsches that have been modded, more so than there is say the hot hatch market. Even though I knew I'd by modding my car I wanted to find a standard one. Maybe that's just because I bought in to that same culture, who knows?Anyway I have no plans to ever sell this car. The only way I'd sell would be if I had to. As far as I'm concerned this car is a keeper. That's why I was pretty OK with making the changes. It's one of the last Metzger engines and it has a manual gearbox, it has very low mileage and should I ever 'need' more power there is a lot more to be had from this car with more money being poured in of course!
Edited by Isysman on Monday 19th May 11:06
markcoznottz said:
What happens to these vtg's if the boost is increased too much? Do they melt? How come hardly any other manufacturers have tried them. The standard boost gauge on the 997 turbo.1 reads to 1.2 bar doesn't it? And the .2 bit is used by the chrono option?, if specced?. 997 turbo tuning seems to generate some agro all round seems to be.
The boost gauge reads 1.0 bar but I have the other gauge which is the one I use 0.0 bar etc. if the engine overheats it's designed to reduce power to prevent damage so I'd imagine if it got too hot you'd put your foot down and get less power than you were expecting. Isysman said:
markcoznottz said:
What happens to these vtg's if the boost is increased too much? Do they melt? How come hardly any other manufacturers have tried them. The standard boost gauge on the 997 turbo.1 reads to 1.2 bar doesn't it? And the .2 bit is used by the chrono option?, if specced?. 997 turbo tuning seems to generate some agro all round seems to be.
The boost gauge reads 1.0 bar but I have the other gauge which is the one I use 0.0 bar etc. if the engine overheats it's designed to reduce power to prevent damage so I'd imagine if it got too hot you'd put your foot down and get less power than you were expecting. benny 61 said:
If these cars aren't tuned correctly you can end up with less power than you started with, cooling is critical. I think of it as a balancing act, as you turn the power up various other components need upgrading/changing.
Very true, that's why I upgraded the intercoolers under advisement from DMS.Por911T said:
To change the subject slightly - what the thoughts on the reasale of a modified car such as this ? Just curious on opinions .....
My views on this on not particularly logical, I bought my 997 turbo recently and discounted any modded cars although I would have been fine or positive on a good exhaust upgrade.It often amazes me how people buy nice things and don't look after them, maybe it shouldn't as many people have a lot more money for cars than I do so these assets are less significant. I enjoy looking after my cars and over-maintain them (I do very low miles), use the performance but don't over-stress them, warm them up and down properly etc
The 997 turbo is so bloody quick out the box, that only speed freaks will feel the need to remap.
However I would consider a remap, and know that if done well they can enhance the car with little downside.
So I would buy a remapped car but only from myself !
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