Discussion
agtlaw said:
Dblue said:
That's just a meaningless list which if any body could really be bothered to research would turn out to be largely identical in spec to the equivalent in the regular GT3.Listing the graphics as separate parts is nonsense and clearly done to make a point but it smacks of protesting too much. They are 99% the same car.
Maybe you should have bothered to do some research?The single-mass flywheel pares a significant nine kilograms from the weight of the GT3 RSs drive, explains engineer, Andreas Preuninger, project leader for the RS programme. We worked our way through the whole powertrain to see where we could save further weight, help gases flow more efficiently in and out of the engine, and finish up any tasks that were in the pipeline when the last two GT3 versions went to production.
The next item to be sorted was the cylinder-heads, he continues. These also have reshaped intake and exhaust ports for race homologation, although the exhaust system remains unchanged. Tappets remain hydraulic like the normal GT3s.
Critical to the whole mix is the ECU remapping. Most people in the chip tuning business do not realise it, but a lighter flywheel means that the fuelling and ignition can be much more aggressive on full throttle to take advantage of the dynamics of an engine that can now rev up faster," he explains.
The counterpoint is that we have to be very careful
with the fuel and ignition settings at small throttle openings, so that the car is not a pig to drive when you are parking or moving slowly in town. This is partly an issue of being able to get the airflow working properly at low speeds with small throttle openings.
Being able to rev higher helps as well, and the rev limit is raised to 8200rpm. Not many owners have complained about the power output, and on paper, Porsche still claims the same 381bhp at 7300rpm as the standard GT3. In reality, however, Andreas freely admits that the gains from all this work, as measured on Porsches control dyno, showed a jump to nearly 400bhp, possibly a shade more once the engine is properly run in.
Starting at the front, the springs are now progressive, rather than linear, and their stiffness index has been moved up from 40 to 45N/mm. The dampers are uprated to match the new spring rates, but they are not actually much stiffer, since simply reducing the weight of the car by 50kg increases the relative spring and damper ratings, and the Pirelli Corsa tyres have stiffer sidewalls.
We tried various different settings but in the end, the basic ones proved to be the best compromise, Andreas tells us. They end up somewhere between 10 and 15 percent stiffer than the normal GT3 in bounce and rebound.
The wheel carriers are totally redesigned to make the most of the improved dynamic camber control that has resulted from the new suspension mounting points. The Uniballs in the front end are now adjustable, as on the rear, and you can turn the suspension legs through 120 degrees to get more negative camber. Of course, this only applies to racecars, as you really would not want to run four degrees, or more, negative camber on a road car. The sum total of this work delivers better control and reduced bump-steer tendencies.
Andreas explains that the vast amount of experience Porsches racing department has gained in competition with the GT3, highlighted the fact that the 996 suspension configuration tends to exaggerate bump steer, the lower the ride height gets. The control arms, formerly adjustable at the rear only, are now adjustable at both ends of the car. Being lower, the racecars are obviously worse than road cars in this respect, so Porsche had no alternative but to carry out these changes. And, of course, the GT3 RS road car benefits from these race-led modifications and is 3mm lower than a regular GT3, front and rear.
For road use, the adjustable anti-roll bars are set to position three out of four in front, and two out of four at the rear on the normal GT3 RS. The even more focused Club Sport version, which comes with a full roll-cage (rear section installed at the factory and the front part delivered to the dealer with the car), gets position four in front and three at the rear for track use, along with slightly different camber and toe settings.
The brakes are the same as the regular car, with the
option of PCCB ceramics. The brake cooling ducts are a different design, although that has more to do with the new wheel carrier shape than anything else. The alloy axle struts were also redesigned because of the new wheel carriers.
The bodyshell is standard GT3 but with some modifications to the sheet metal aft of the drivers seat. Since there is no rear seat, we removed some of the bits to which you would normally attach the rear seatbelts and some other small parts. We saved about 14kg here, and deleting the side airbags was worth 3kg, the leather trim around 4kg, Andreas tells us.
The Kevlar bonnet saved another 8kg and a 2kg saving was found in the larger carbonfibre rear wing. This is just like the one on the Cup car and delivers 35kg ofdownforce at 125mph [200km/h], he says. In wind tunnel testing, the car showed zero lift on the front axle and 5kg downforce at the rear, which means that the rear wing counters the 30kg of lift induced by the rest of the car.
If you look under the front of the rear wing, you will notice ram air ducts for the engine bay. According to Andreas, these force cooling air into the intake with 15- 18Mb of pressure at 300km/h (187mph), and this is enough to create an additional 15bhp. That extra 15bhp cannot be homologated, though, since the official engine output figures are certified on a dyno!
The front cooler arrangement takes a leaf from the GT2s book and the radiator is angled so that air enters the nose from below, blows through the radiator and upwards in front of the bonnets leading edge. This in
itself creates 3-4kg of downforce on the nose.
The businesslike cabin of the GT3 RS has a unique dashboard without a glovebox, and this alone saves 6kg. Ironically, though, right-hand-drive cars got a normal dashboard, because only 140 cars were built. However, the right-hand-drive ones had a smaller 64-litre fuel
tank, so they ended up lighter, anyhow.
The polycarbonate rear window saves a further 2kg
and the carbon mirrors probably only a couple of grams over the stock glassfibre ones. The kerb weight of a GT3 RS Club Sport with its fire extinguisher system, rollcage, preparation for ignition-kill switch and a full fuel tank, is 1360kg. The optional PCCB brakes save a further 17kg.
The GT3 RS was only available in white, with Mexico Blue or Indian Red shades used for the decals along the
Thats a long winded piece to post on a forum like this but it is a launch publicity press interview detailing at length not quite as many differences as you seem determined to advance. The changes to the suspension design are considerable but mainly aimed at allowing motorsports homologation for ranges of adjustment that a road car, by his own admission, would never run. The body in white is the same , the wheels brakes, rack all shared.
The motor is essentially the same mill, reprofiled valves and superior selection at Zuffenhausen ensure they all make more on a dyne but its still quoted at the same output...by Porsche.
The Kevlar rather than CF (I'd forgotten it was Kevlar rather than CF) ) parts save some weight but Porsche claimed 1360kg as opposed to the GT3s 1380. Now call me a thicky but thats not 5% of 1380kg by my calculations.Its the weight of a small child in the passenger seat I think that weight is without A/C too isn't it. Lot of waffle for 30kg.
Its a publicity exercise to differentiate the 2 cars as much as possible. Claiming it runs 3mm lower is a ridiculous statement for example. Tyre pressures alone would amount to a greater difference than that.
The single mass flywheel is described as if it is a huge deal by AP here but mk1 996GT3 Clubsports ran a SMF.
Once again, I am not looking to undermine the 96RS but I stand by my assertion that its 99% the same car.
And thanks for the insulting opening to your post.
Unnecessay
Edited by Dblue on Thursday 22 May 21:11
agtlaw said:
Wrong. Different cylinder heads on the 996RS engine. RS produces approx 15PS more on the dyno - and the difference is even greater when moving as the RS has a 'ram air' duct on the engine cover.
Porsche: "The engine of the 911 GT3 is used in the 911 GT3 RS in model year 2004. The geometry of the inlet ports in the cylinder head have been optimised. This resulted in a new engine type, which for this vehicle is designated M79/80."
There are many differences from a GT3 clubsport - which is 5% heavier than an RS. Different roll cage, springs, dampers, wheel carriers, adjustable suspension arms (nb standard GT3 shares Boxster parts), single mass flywheel, various carbon fibre parts, etc, etc.
It's always interesting when the discussion of parts using part numbers or press release info comes out to quantify the RS. Porsche: "The engine of the 911 GT3 is used in the 911 GT3 RS in model year 2004. The geometry of the inlet ports in the cylinder head have been optimised. This resulted in a new engine type, which for this vehicle is designated M79/80."
There are many differences from a GT3 clubsport - which is 5% heavier than an RS. Different roll cage, springs, dampers, wheel carriers, adjustable suspension arms (nb standard GT3 shares Boxster parts), single mass flywheel, various carbon fibre parts, etc, etc.
Take the heads, what does that actually say? Optimised geometry. The heads changed to the smaller plug which indeed optimised geometry however they did nothing with it. The 997 saw Porsche use some of the potential benefit but only the 997 Cup car actually used it to the full potential.
Springs and shocks. There was a 5N/mm change to the front only. Dampers are same spec since the change is small.
The 2 piece rear arm offers only 1 single benefit over the 1 piece arm and that is the ability to shim for extra camber. Are people running rear camber so large they are shimming the arms back there?
The hubs are improved but that improvement comes into play at low ride heights. I don't see many 6RS running 80mm front ride heights (v the 115mm factory spec) where they can take the advantage.
There is cool stuff on the 6RS without doubt and I very much get that many posts are owners looking for a way to put into words an intangible. But listing parts as a method of doing so does nothing for the case unless one understands the change and can discuss the benefit. Just saying it has stuff does not do it. Its a fantastic car and I appreciate it must suck to have people want you to quantify it in some way all the time.
I always find it curious how the rear wing is never mentioned. It's the one part that is immediately obvious when driving I've always found. The car loses the rear end corkscrew settling effect in cornering with it. Its a massive change to the car but owners never discuss it. Maybe many dont or didn't drive regular 6GT3s.
|http://thumbsnap.com/ovmvscyI[/url]fioran0 said:
I always find it curious how the rear wing is never mentioned. It's the one part that is immediately obvious when driving I've always found. The car loses the rear end corkscrew settling effect in cornering with it. Its a massive change to the car but owners never discuss it. Maybe many dont or didn't drive regular 6GT3s.
Please elaborate. langdale said:
Well they've not fired him yet and every RS they have sold from the motorsport department since the 996 RS in limited numbers has sold rapido and now is worth more than list. So I guess from a company perspective what has he done wrong?
That's a funny bit too. The motorsport dept. They run all by themselves nowhere near the street car side of things. AP doesn't operate from there and the GT3s don't come out of there. But it suits the company to not correct the slip. It's all slightly grubby IMHO. The sad thing is, the cars don't (didn't) need the faux BS. I wasn't questioning the sales of cars, simply his credibility even then. The two are in no way linked. Entirely individual concepts.
Most people now realise he is a salesman pretending not to be. It was interesting given the recent penny drop after the 991 reading the BS associated with him even back with the 6RS. It was assumed he has once been a straight shooter.
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