This Months EVO: GT3 vs Spackerale vs Macca
Discussion
Question is, if you turn all the systems off on the speciale and try and drive it like a proper car is it just a bag of ole s
te ?
The problem with these jourmos is theyre so caught up in the status quo as far as modern cars go that they have fogotten what real motoring is all about. Only meaden gave an honest account of the 991 gt3 for example vis a vis his 964rs.
te ?The problem with these jourmos is theyre so caught up in the status quo as far as modern cars go that they have fogotten what real motoring is all about. Only meaden gave an honest account of the 991 gt3 for example vis a vis his 964rs.
I wonder how quickly the journalists actually drive such cars on the road. A couple of weeks ago I was driving over the same roads with some friends (all in early 911s). To be honest, although we were driving quite quickly, at least 90% of the time my speed was not limited by the car but rather by other factors such as visibility (usually lack of it) and ultimately because I am not willing to flout the law (and risk real problems if caught doing excessive speeds). On such roads I would not have been
faster in a Speciale - I would have just stopped accelerating earlier. I doubt a Speciale would have been any more fun (although I am sure it would have been great in its own way and sounded better). On the other hand, I am sure my butt would have been puckering more on the single track lanes will found ourselves on on occasion!
faster in a Speciale - I would have just stopped accelerating earlier. I doubt a Speciale would have been any more fun (although I am sure it would have been great in its own way and sounded better). On the other hand, I am sure my butt would have been puckering more on the single track lanes will found ourselves on on occasion!
jackal said:
Question is, if you turn all the systems off on the speciale and try and drive it like a proper car is it just a bag of ole ste ?
The problem with these jourmos is theyre so caught up in the status quo as far as modern cars go that they have fogotten what real motoring is all about. Only meaden gave an honest account of the 991 gt3 for example vis a vis his 964rs.
There was an interesting post on here recently by a guy who seemed like an experienced track/race driver comparing the Ferrari Daytona, 512BBi and 458. He reckoned if you switch off all the systems the 458's chassis is awful. Controversial...te ?The problem with these jourmos is theyre so caught up in the status quo as far as modern cars go that they have fogotten what real motoring is all about. Only meaden gave an honest account of the 991 gt3 for example vis a vis his 964rs.
barchetta_boy said:
There was an interesting post on here recently by a guy who seemed like an experienced track/race driver comparing the Ferrari Daytona, 512BBi and 458. He reckoned if you switch off all the systems the 458's chassis is awful. Controversial...
I've read quite a few times elsewhere that that is not the case. I suspect you have to be a pretty good driver though to drive a 458 in anger with all the safety systems turned off.barchetta_boy said:
There was an interesting post on here recently by a guy who seemed like an experienced track/race driver comparing the Ferrari Daytona, 512BBi and 458. He reckoned if you switch off all the systems the 458's chassis is awful. Controversial...
I remember that. Fiorano wasnt it? He said that it was verging on undrivable due to the chassis being designed and up for the electronic controls.Ant yet in this very EVO copy, the next feature is taking a Speciale around the Anglesey circuit Ty Croes, with all of the gubbins switched off and they were blown away by it.
Its hard to know who to believe anymore....
mollytherocker said:
Ant yet in this very EVO copy, the next feature is taking a Speciale around the Anglesey circuit Ty Croes, with all of the gubbins switched off and they were blown away by it.
The factory-tweaked and tailored Speciale was <0.2s ahead of the half-price GT3...Edited by sidicks on Saturday 28th June 21:26
mollytherocker said:
I remember that. Fiorano wasnt it? He said that it was verging on undrivable due to the chassis being designed and up for the electronic controls.
Ant yet in this very EVO copy, the next feature is taking a Speciale around the Anglesey circuit Ty Croes, with all of the gubbins switched off and they were blown away by it.
Its hard to know who to believe anymore....
I think it was Steve Rance but it was in the wet.Ant yet in this very EVO copy, the next feature is taking a Speciale around the Anglesey circuit Ty Croes, with all of the gubbins switched off and they were blown away by it.
Its hard to know who to believe anymore....
Wasn't me that one. Sadly my seat time in older ferraris isn't much of anything.
I can say that my Challenge Stradale with all systems off has a nice chassis and my 430 challenge race car had a nice chassis too without any assist. I haven't driven a 458 italia angry though have been out in the 458 challenge and liked that too. It certainly wasn't deficient in terms of chassis.
I am not sure Ferrari really make a bad chassis tbh. I know there is a lot of resentment towards Ferrari, often due to owners behavior (or perception of owners behavior) but Ferrari themselves, those guys know their $hit.
Ive seen the might of the Ferrari engineering knowledge directly ( I had them do a bunch of special work on one of my cars) and it is incredible to behold. Hands down on a whole other level.
Its probably not what people want to hear but thats how it is.
The Porsche GT3 line has been (until 991) very special indeed but its also on a whole level below what Ferrari do from a technical point of view. This is still the case but what has changed with this generation is my opinion on how special the 991 GT3 is.
As for the results of any track shoot out. Lap times schmap times!! People sure do love to measure their cars by what a clock says even though this isn't what shapes their ownership experience or their seat time. Its an interesting phenomena.
All that being said, I much prefer my Porsches. I like the rear engine over the mid engine from a drivers perspective and I like their mechanical purity.
I have already stated however that I found the new 991 GT3 to be a supremely beige experience. I had extended time with one that I didn't bother to use all up. I had low expectations and it failed to even meet them.
Its neither fish nor fowl imho. Neither good enough to compete with the bigger boys at what they do, not honest enough to be what I expect of a GT3. A sad state of affairs indeed. A true committee constructed machine if ever there was one. Gimmicks and BS replacing what used to be purity of purpose. Ferry must be dizzy from all that rolling.
But its opened the door to many new owners just as the 996 GT3 opened a door for me. There are plenty of other things (Porsche and otherwise) for me to drive and enjoy and hopefully those moving in have as much fun with this new generation of car as I have had with the older ones.
Of the cars reviewed in that group, only the Speciali is of interest to me. Means nothing of course however its interesting from the point of view that I am pretty old fashioned in what I want from a car. Somehow Ferrari seem to be able to continue to appeal to this section of people despite pushing engineering and technology hard. I suspect that this ability is something rather special and something that isn't picked up on in terms of the wider debate.
As for value for money... yawn. A GT3 didn't need to have a "good value" crutch.
I can say that my Challenge Stradale with all systems off has a nice chassis and my 430 challenge race car had a nice chassis too without any assist. I haven't driven a 458 italia angry though have been out in the 458 challenge and liked that too. It certainly wasn't deficient in terms of chassis.
I am not sure Ferrari really make a bad chassis tbh. I know there is a lot of resentment towards Ferrari, often due to owners behavior (or perception of owners behavior) but Ferrari themselves, those guys know their $hit.
Ive seen the might of the Ferrari engineering knowledge directly ( I had them do a bunch of special work on one of my cars) and it is incredible to behold. Hands down on a whole other level.
Its probably not what people want to hear but thats how it is.
The Porsche GT3 line has been (until 991) very special indeed but its also on a whole level below what Ferrari do from a technical point of view. This is still the case but what has changed with this generation is my opinion on how special the 991 GT3 is.
As for the results of any track shoot out. Lap times schmap times!! People sure do love to measure their cars by what a clock says even though this isn't what shapes their ownership experience or their seat time. Its an interesting phenomena.
All that being said, I much prefer my Porsches. I like the rear engine over the mid engine from a drivers perspective and I like their mechanical purity.
I have already stated however that I found the new 991 GT3 to be a supremely beige experience. I had extended time with one that I didn't bother to use all up. I had low expectations and it failed to even meet them.
Its neither fish nor fowl imho. Neither good enough to compete with the bigger boys at what they do, not honest enough to be what I expect of a GT3. A sad state of affairs indeed. A true committee constructed machine if ever there was one. Gimmicks and BS replacing what used to be purity of purpose. Ferry must be dizzy from all that rolling.
But its opened the door to many new owners just as the 996 GT3 opened a door for me. There are plenty of other things (Porsche and otherwise) for me to drive and enjoy and hopefully those moving in have as much fun with this new generation of car as I have had with the older ones.
Of the cars reviewed in that group, only the Speciali is of interest to me. Means nothing of course however its interesting from the point of view that I am pretty old fashioned in what I want from a car. Somehow Ferrari seem to be able to continue to appeal to this section of people despite pushing engineering and technology hard. I suspect that this ability is something rather special and something that isn't picked up on in terms of the wider debate.
As for value for money... yawn. A GT3 didn't need to have a "good value" crutch.
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 28th June 21:48
Yep. I drove them but I think my comments were a little mis understood. My point was with such high power outputs modern chassis have to rely on electronic systems to deploy it in situations of low grip. The chassis itself was ok for a road car ie; the usual default to understeer. But with the systems off in low grip the balance was awful and it took reasonably high levels of skill to drive the car with any vigour. Anyone with an understanding of vehicle dynamics will tell you that it would not be reasonable to expect any different from a chassis on road tyres with that amount of power. The grip isn't there.
Ultimately, the limiting factor of any road chassis compared to say a race chassis is tyre grip. With modern engined producing ever higher power outputs the only way around it is to effectively limit the accessible power in low grip situations in an attempt to create an artificial balance between chassis grip and power output. Stick a set of wets on the Ferrari and with the systems off it would have been a lot nicer but on road tyres in greasy conditions there was absolutely no balance at all. Far too much to ask any passive chassis to handle.
So we have a breed of cars produced to artificially create a balance in the moving target which is grip available. In achieving this they add a far more complex Mix of variables ( self created ) that a driver must cope with if he is trying to deploy his own skill sets to drive the car making him or her much more of a passenger in the over all process.
Ultimately, the limiting factor of any road chassis compared to say a race chassis is tyre grip. With modern engined producing ever higher power outputs the only way around it is to effectively limit the accessible power in low grip situations in an attempt to create an artificial balance between chassis grip and power output. Stick a set of wets on the Ferrari and with the systems off it would have been a lot nicer but on road tyres in greasy conditions there was absolutely no balance at all. Far too much to ask any passive chassis to handle.
So we have a breed of cars produced to artificially create a balance in the moving target which is grip available. In achieving this they add a far more complex Mix of variables ( self created ) that a driver must cope with if he is trying to deploy his own skill sets to drive the car making him or her much more of a passenger in the over all process.
Thanks for the clarification Steve, even I can understand that!
So its all about tyres and what power can actually be deployed through the tyres ability to grip.
Its quite ironic that the higher outputs that are generated, the more control systems are required to limit actual power deployed. Effectively holding the car back.
Therefore, any significant increases in real performance will come from tyre technology?
So its all about tyres and what power can actually be deployed through the tyres ability to grip.
Its quite ironic that the higher outputs that are generated, the more control systems are required to limit actual power deployed. Effectively holding the car back.
Therefore, any significant increases in real performance will come from tyre technology?
mollytherocker said:
Thanks for the clarification Steve, even I can understand that!
So its all about tyres and what power can actually be deployed through the tyres ability to grip.
Its quite ironic that the higher outputs that are generated, the more control systems are required to limit actual power deployed. Effectively holding the car back.
Therefore, any significant increases in real performance will come from tyre technology?
Yes. Power output levels of road cars are rapidly increasing over the relative performance of road tyres. Going back to the Ferrari, the reason why the Daytona and the 512BB1 were so much nicer to drive was that there was so much more feel engineered into their chassis compared to the 458. The more feel a driver has, the easier it is for him to react with his inputs, and crucially, the more engaged he feels with his vehicle. The 458 chassis is less concerned with providing engagement with the driver, it is designed to interpret data fed to it's own sensors which in turn communicate with receptors that control other systems. Effectively to engage with itself. Thus the provision of 'feel' as a fundamental part of the interaction process with the driver is no longer essential of the extraction of outright performance. In the 458's case, even with the traction and stability systems turned off , the final 'feel' layer remained diluted by what felt like an active damping system (not sure if the 458 has active but it felt like it to me) as well as a laughable surplus of power over grip.So its all about tyres and what power can actually be deployed through the tyres ability to grip.
Its quite ironic that the higher outputs that are generated, the more control systems are required to limit actual power deployed. Effectively holding the car back.
Therefore, any significant increases in real performance will come from tyre technology?
Anyway, by comparison, and for this reason, the 458 felt remote, unpredictable and far less pleasurable to drive than the older cars. The 'hermaphoritic' relationship of cars of this nature certainly produce the numbers in terms of performance but where does the driver fit in to the experience? - unless all he wants to do is 'go fast'. In the 458 I was a gooseberry sitting in a car that felt happier to have a (dysfunctional in the wet) relationship with itself.
There is no escaping it. The gap is widening between the persuit of outright performance (of the bragging rights kind) and of cars produced purely for an interactive and engaging experience.
Edited by Steve Rance on Sunday 29th June 11:12
Edited by Steve Rance on Sunday 29th June 11:25
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