The seemingly oft maligned 996 GT3 RS ........
Discussion
jackal said:
Drove one on kw and it was awful, all over the shop.
Drove a standard one and it was really nice. Not as fluid and well mannered as my mk1 but still real sweet and no big deal.
Come on Rich Drove a standard one and it was really nice. Not as fluid and well mannered as my mk1 but still real sweet and no big deal.
"Not as fluid and well mannered as my Mk1" tells us everything, but nothing. Neither does your experience of a similar car on KW's. Your car on KW's was hopeless (though a massive part of that was down to the round black things being as old as the Ark) whereas my Manthey car on shot Cups and KW's was impressive compared to my RS (see my OP) albeit not a patch on the Ohlins.
I've owned my RS for about 5 years; before that I had a 996 Mk2. I did about 30,000 in the Mk2, and now 13,000 miles in the RS.
My RS was completely stock when I bought it. On the road, it was better out of the box than the stock Mk2; sweeter steering (thanks to those revised geometry pick up points); lovely tactile handling and very throttle adjustable (and I don't mean when sliding - the front end would push on or tuck in mid corner as you applied / removed gas).
On track (mainly at the Ring where I used to race 996 / 7 GT3 Cup cars in the VLN) the OEM dampers were a bit too soft, but with a good geo it was excellent.
The car now has Manthey KWs, Manthey brakes (replacing the PCCBs), revised aero but stock engine. On the road it is actually rather fantastic. It is, of course, stiff, but the front end is sensationally pointy and provided I am sensible over the bumpy bits I can make good progress. Indeed on a recent run between Nurburg and Cochem, which is very fast section of road with smooth tarmac, the car was incredible.
On track (recently at DN10) it was perfection (thanks to Manthey's spot on set up). A much more experienced friend drove the car at race pace and the combination of accurate steering, no understeer (if you drive it properly) and huge traction was amazing.
So in both stock and modified form it is, for me, one of the best cars I have ever driven on road and track. But then I am biased. I love the challenge of driving 911s and the GT3s are without doubt, in my view, the best of that breed. And I enjoy the 996 above all other GT3s (including my 4.0). It's not necessarily better; it's just more fun, more engaging. And I love the fact that you have to really rev the engine to get the most out of it. A high water mark for analogue cars.
Cheers
My RS was completely stock when I bought it. On the road, it was better out of the box than the stock Mk2; sweeter steering (thanks to those revised geometry pick up points); lovely tactile handling and very throttle adjustable (and I don't mean when sliding - the front end would push on or tuck in mid corner as you applied / removed gas).
On track (mainly at the Ring where I used to race 996 / 7 GT3 Cup cars in the VLN) the OEM dampers were a bit too soft, but with a good geo it was excellent.
The car now has Manthey KWs, Manthey brakes (replacing the PCCBs), revised aero but stock engine. On the road it is actually rather fantastic. It is, of course, stiff, but the front end is sensationally pointy and provided I am sensible over the bumpy bits I can make good progress. Indeed on a recent run between Nurburg and Cochem, which is very fast section of road with smooth tarmac, the car was incredible.
On track (recently at DN10) it was perfection (thanks to Manthey's spot on set up). A much more experienced friend drove the car at race pace and the combination of accurate steering, no understeer (if you drive it properly) and huge traction was amazing.
So in both stock and modified form it is, for me, one of the best cars I have ever driven on road and track. But then I am biased. I love the challenge of driving 911s and the GT3s are without doubt, in my view, the best of that breed. And I enjoy the 996 above all other GT3s (including my 4.0). It's not necessarily better; it's just more fun, more engaging. And I love the fact that you have to really rev the engine to get the most out of it. A high water mark for analogue cars.
Cheers
Nicely put Stefan.
I have nothing to add to this thread, having never driven a one, but I'm enjoying the different views.
I've mentioned a few times on here that the 996RS has been my dream 911 since its release. I doubt I'll ever own one now due to the prices and the fact my mk1 offers 90% of the experience for 50% of the cost, but I still enjoy the chit chat around them and they are a special 911.
I have nothing to add to this thread, having never driven a one, but I'm enjoying the different views.
I've mentioned a few times on here that the 996RS has been my dream 911 since its release. I doubt I'll ever own one now due to the prices and the fact my mk1 offers 90% of the experience for 50% of the cost, but I still enjoy the chit chat around them and they are a special 911.
Slippydiff said:
Come on Rich "Not as fluid and well mannered as my Mk1" tells us everything, but nothing. Neither does your experience of a similar car on KW's.
Your car on KW's was hopeless (though a massive part of that was down to the round black things being as old as the Ark) whereas my Manthey car on shot Cups and KW's was impressive compared to my RS (see my OP) albeit not a patch on the Ohlins.
Apologies, i should have been clearer H. "Not as fluid and well mannered as my Mk1" tells us everything, but nothing. Neither does your experience of a similar car on KW's. Your car on KW's was hopeless (though a massive part of that was down to the round black things being as old as the Ark) whereas my Manthey car on shot Cups and KW's was impressive compared to my RS (see my OP) albeit not a patch on the Ohlins.
First car was bad because of the geo, rather than the kw. At least thats the way i read it.
Edited by jackal on Thursday 17th July 00:03
stefan1 said:
I've owned my RS for about 5 years; before that I had a 996 Mk2. I did about 30,000 in the Mk2, and now 13,000 miles in the RS.
My RS was completely stock when I bought it. On the road, it was better out of the box than the stock Mk2; sweeter steering (thanks to those revised geometry pick up points); lovely tactile handling and very throttle adjustable (and I don't mean when sliding - the front end would push on or tuck in mid corner as you applied / removed gas).
On track (mainly at the Ring where I used to race 996 / 7 GT3 Cup cars in the VLN) the OEM dampers were a bit too soft, but with a good geo it was excellent.
The car now has Manthey KWs, Manthey brakes (replacing the PCCBs), revised aero but stock engine. On the road it is actually rather fantastic. It is, of course, stiff, but the front end is sensationally pointy and provided I am sensible over the bumpy bits I can make good progress. Indeed on a recent run between Nurburg and Cochem, which is very fast section of road with smooth tarmac, the car was incredible.
On track (recently at DN10) it was perfection (thanks to Manthey's spot on set up). A much more experienced friend drove the car at race pace and the combination of accurate steering, no understeer (if you drive it properly) and huge traction was amazing.
So in both stock and modified form it is, for me, one of the best cars I have ever driven on road and track. But then I am biased. I love the challenge of driving 911s and the GT3s are without doubt, in my view, the best of that breed. And I enjoy the 996 above all other GT3s (including my 4.0). It's not necessarily better; it's just more fun, more engaging. And I love the fact that you have to really rev the engine to get the most out of it. A high water mark for analogue cars.
Cheers
High praise indeed for the 996.My RS was completely stock when I bought it. On the road, it was better out of the box than the stock Mk2; sweeter steering (thanks to those revised geometry pick up points); lovely tactile handling and very throttle adjustable (and I don't mean when sliding - the front end would push on or tuck in mid corner as you applied / removed gas).
On track (mainly at the Ring where I used to race 996 / 7 GT3 Cup cars in the VLN) the OEM dampers were a bit too soft, but with a good geo it was excellent.
The car now has Manthey KWs, Manthey brakes (replacing the PCCBs), revised aero but stock engine. On the road it is actually rather fantastic. It is, of course, stiff, but the front end is sensationally pointy and provided I am sensible over the bumpy bits I can make good progress. Indeed on a recent run between Nurburg and Cochem, which is very fast section of road with smooth tarmac, the car was incredible.
On track (recently at DN10) it was perfection (thanks to Manthey's spot on set up). A much more experienced friend drove the car at race pace and the combination of accurate steering, no understeer (if you drive it properly) and huge traction was amazing.
So in both stock and modified form it is, for me, one of the best cars I have ever driven on road and track. But then I am biased. I love the challenge of driving 911s and the GT3s are without doubt, in my view, the best of that breed. And I enjoy the 996 above all other GT3s (including my 4.0). It's not necessarily better; it's just more fun, more engaging. And I love the fact that you have to really rev the engine to get the most out of it. A high water mark for analogue cars.
Cheers
A superb (not to mention constructive) summation Stefan.
But let's dig a little further, specifically this bit :
stefan1 said:
It is, of course, stiff, but the front end is sensationally pointy and provided I am sensible over the bumpy bits I can make good progress.
My experience of the Manthey KW's on my Mk1 leads me to believe that whilst they're stiffer than the standard Mk1 spring/damper rates, they're not as stiff as the standard RS rates.That you find them stiff, and you have to be in your words "sensible over the bumpy bits" leaves me thinking that yes, the standard RS rates maybe a tad on the soft side for track use, but a bit like the 964 RS before it,they're "less than optimal" on anything other than billiard table smooth roads. That's certainly my experience. That Mike at Sports and Classic reported the KW suspended version he drove as being superb, only adds further credence to my theory the KW's front spring rates are softer than the OE RS items (as I believe the front springs in their 996 GT2 kits are too) or certainly they're progressive springs and the initial rate is softer.
stefan1 said:
I've owned my RS for about 5 years; before that I had a 996 Mk2. I did about 30,000 in the Mk2, and now 13,000 miles in the RS.
My RS was completely stock when I bought it. On the road, it was better out of the box than the stock Mk2; sweeter steering (thanks to those revised geometry pick up points); lovely tactile handling and very throttle adjustable (and I don't mean when sliding - the front end would push on or tuck in mid corner as you applied / removed gas).
On track (mainly at the Ring where I used to race 996 / 7 GT3 Cup cars in the VLN) the OEM dampers were a bit too soft, but with a good geo it was excellent.
The car now has Manthey KWs, Manthey brakes (replacing the PCCBs), revised aero but stock engine. On the road it is actually rather fantastic. It is, of course, stiff, but the front end is sensationally pointy and provided I am sensible over the bumpy bits I can make good progress. Indeed on a recent run between Nurburg and Cochem, which is very fast section of road with smooth tarmac, the car was incredible.
On track (recently at DN10) it was perfection (thanks to Manthey's spot on set up). A much more experienced friend drove the car at race pace and the combination of accurate steering, no understeer (if you drive it properly) and huge traction was amazing.
So in both stock and modified form it is, for me, one of the best cars I have ever driven on road and track. But then I am biased. I love the challenge of driving 911s and the GT3s are without doubt, in my view, the best of that breed. And I enjoy the 996 above all other GT3s (including my 4.0). It's not necessarily better; it's just more fun, more engaging. And I love the fact that you have to really rev the engine to get the most out of it. A high water mark for analogue cars.
Cheers
+1 My RS was completely stock when I bought it. On the road, it was better out of the box than the stock Mk2; sweeter steering (thanks to those revised geometry pick up points); lovely tactile handling and very throttle adjustable (and I don't mean when sliding - the front end would push on or tuck in mid corner as you applied / removed gas).
On track (mainly at the Ring where I used to race 996 / 7 GT3 Cup cars in the VLN) the OEM dampers were a bit too soft, but with a good geo it was excellent.
The car now has Manthey KWs, Manthey brakes (replacing the PCCBs), revised aero but stock engine. On the road it is actually rather fantastic. It is, of course, stiff, but the front end is sensationally pointy and provided I am sensible over the bumpy bits I can make good progress. Indeed on a recent run between Nurburg and Cochem, which is very fast section of road with smooth tarmac, the car was incredible.
On track (recently at DN10) it was perfection (thanks to Manthey's spot on set up). A much more experienced friend drove the car at race pace and the combination of accurate steering, no understeer (if you drive it properly) and huge traction was amazing.
So in both stock and modified form it is, for me, one of the best cars I have ever driven on road and track. But then I am biased. I love the challenge of driving 911s and the GT3s are without doubt, in my view, the best of that breed. And I enjoy the 996 above all other GT3s (including my 4.0). It's not necessarily better; it's just more fun, more engaging. And I love the fact that you have to really rev the engine to get the most out of it. A high water mark for analogue cars.
Cheers
Agree with so much of what you say there
It is particularly interesting when one does compare with the 4.0...both amazing, yet each has its own place. Perhaps surprisingly, I think I would find the 4.0 easier to get rid of then the 996 RS
Slippy, there is so much that could be said here but trying to keep it brief
First of all, I think you are asking the wrong question. If you put is as 'is this a good car or a bad car' question, you end up getting opposing views from each camp.
Everyone's needs, uses, roads, experience, desires, other cars in the household, etc, are so different that the answer is always personally loaded.
Plus as we know, there is so much adjustability in these cars added to which they are so so sensitive to each degree of adjustment, that no two cars are quite the same.
Therefore one of the joys in my view is to hone the car to your own particular needs over time....yes this usually means that those that spend more time on this, perhaps use it a little on track as well, will extract greater pleasure. Those that just jump in and drive around (perhaps with someone else's setup) may find it unrewarding.
In addition, I think not every car is running in tip top condition - are the dampers in good nick? Is the rear diff optimum? Are the tyres 'round' (I've had silly handling issues from two sets of used rubber only to be cured by a brand new set of tyres)? Is the engine working optimally (I had one car with a malfunctioning cam actuator..it was losing around 40/50 bhp...difficult to detect but takes away the sharp edge from the engine).
Stefan1's description of adjustability on the throttle (push/tuck in/rotation) only happens with a well functioning diff..ideally the more aggressive cup plates
I personally find alien reports of 'it threw me off the road' 'sniffs every camber' etc...but I cannot tell if they are due to other people's duff cars (e.g. setup) or something missing in driving ability (unlikely)
So, I think you need to consider it not as good/bad, but as what space it fills in the ownership experience.
- Old school analogue feel in a more modern and reliable package
- More analogue than the later variants....if you jump out of a big 997.2 RS into a svelte 996 RS the levels of connectivity and feel go up the scale (I've got both so not a biased opinion)
- Drive to a euro circuit, round all day, and back home without skipping a beat
- Heritage linking back to the 1999 LM GT1 and earlier race cars (yes, I know, all pre 991 GT3s share this)
- The first GT3 RS
- The closest RS to the race car of the time
- I found my second 996 RS (fresh dampers, a strong engine) easier to drive on the road than my first 996 GT3 mk2 (Parr stage 1 geo)
- Its an RS!...love the RS bits - carbon fibre bonnet, plastic windows, carbon spoiler, etc
- I can't put this into words, but even driving on fast A roads, sweeping bends, its like you are dancing on your toes...it reminds me of the old clint eastwood film 'firefox' where he is controlling the plane with his thoughts...I feel I can communicate with the car and it with me across so many interfaces (hands, bum, feet, pedals, etc)...and it translates your inputs almost immediately.
- yes, it skips around a little, the steering is fighting under your loose grip...but you need to learn to trust those steering movements and learn to read which ones are just 'road feedback' and which one need some corrective input...especially when you start to push on.
- I feel I can tell the car is slightly lighter on its toes than the standard 996 GT3 (which I also have) especially when the ceramic discs are on too...its a small difference...but noticeable.
- you can just sense that it is something special...in my view destined to be special in the future...that is just personal opinion
Some of us have been lucky to try it on a track and understand what it does and how it does it...yes, that is likely to reduce as the values go up.
Mine is now basically a garage queen..it is almost like a piece of art, a piece of automotive history (a bit sad that)...but each time I look at it, I 'know' what it is capable of...and funnily enough I do not need to spank it round a track to remind myself of it. It is like owning a 240mph Veyron...not many owners have been near 200mph with it...but they know it can and therefore love it for what it can do.
Of course, if it is your only sports car (in additional to the daily driver), then it may not fill all the usage boxes (i.e. take the girlfriend to a nice restaurant and park outside)..if you never take it to a track or have done in the past then you may wonder what the fuss was about...if you have not nurtured the setup you may never bond with it...etc
Also, lets be honest, the values debate is part of the charm...I like the fact that almost with all 996 GT3/RSs you can own them, drive them, and then sell them for more than you paid for them...I've done this for the last 6 years and it continues to be the case (yes, ignore the maintenance costs because if you get too hooked to the 'nurturing' game then its man maths time!)
Finally, at some point, I may need to let go of one of my Porsches to free up some capital. I will at some time put up a thread asking 'if you had to sell a 4.0 or a 996 RS, which one would it be?'...because right now, the head may say keep the 4.0 but the heart does not agree
Sorry...that was the brief version!
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 17th July 00:56
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 17th July 00:58
Slippydiff said:
My experience of the Manthey KW's on my Mk1 leads me to believe that whilst they're stiffer than the standard Mk1 spring/damper rates, they're not as stiff as the standard RS rates.
KWv3s are 40N/mm front (same as stock 996.2 GT3, RS is 45N/mm), rear are 170N/mm (996.2 stock is 95N/mm, RS is the same). All linear springs. Not sure if the Mantheys have different springs or valving. 996.1 is 35/65.LaSource said:
+1
Agree with so much of what you say there
It is particularly interesting when one does compare with the 4.0...both amazing, yet each has its own place. Perhaps surprisingly, I think I would find the 4.0 easier to get rid of then the 996 RS
Slippy, there is so much that could be said here but trying to keep it brief
First of all, I think you are asking the wrong question. If you put is as 'is this a good car or a bad car' question, you end up getting opposing views from each camp.
Everyone's needs, uses, roads, experience, desires, other cars in the household, etc, are so different that the answer is always personally loaded.
Plus as we know, there is so much adjustability in these cars added to which they are so so sensitive to each degree of adjustment, that no two cars are quite the same.
Therefore one of the joys in my view is to hone the car to your own particular needs over time....yes this usually means that those that spend more time on this, perhaps use it a little on track as well, will extract greater pleasure. Those that just jump in and drive around (perhaps with someone else's setup) may find it unrewarding.
In addition, I think not every car is running in tip top condition - are the dampers in good nick? Is the rear diff optimum? Are the tyres 'round' (I've had silly handling issues from two sets of used rubber only to be cured by a brand new set of tyres)? Is the engine working optimally (I had one car with a malfunctioning cam actuator..it was losing around 40/50 bhp...difficult to detect but takes away the sharp edge from the engine).
Stefan1's description of adjustability on the throttle (push/tuck in/rotation) only happens with a well functioning diff..ideally the more aggressive cup plates
I personally find alien reports of 'it threw me off the road' 'sniffs every camber' etc...but I cannot tell if they are due to other people's duff cars (e.g. setup) or something missing in driving ability (unlikely)
So, I think you need to consider it not as good/bad, but as what space it fills in the ownership experience.
- Old school analogue feel in a more modern and reliable package
- More analogue than the later variants....if you jump out of a big 997.2 RS into a svelte 996 RS the levels of connectivity and feel go up the scale (I've got both so not a biased opinion)
- Drive to a euro circuit, round all day, and back home without skipping a beat
- Heritage linking back to the 1999 LM GT1 and earlier race cars (yes, I know, all pre 991 GT3s share this)
- The first GT3 RS
- The closest RS to the race car of the time
- I found my second 996 RS (fresh dampers, a strong engine) easier to drive on the road than my first 996 GT3 mk2 (Parr stage 1 geo)
- Its an RS!...love the RS bits - carbon fibre bonnet, plastic windows, carbon spoiler, etc
- I can't put this into words, but even driving on fast A roads, sweeping bends, its like you are dancing on your toes...it reminds me of the old clint eastwood film 'firefox' where he is controlling the plane with his thoughts...I feel I can communicate with the car and it with me across so many interfaces (hands, bum, feet, pedals, etc)...and it translates your inputs almost immediately.
- yes, it skips around a little, the steering is fighting under your loose grip...but you need to learn to trust those steering movements and learn to read which ones are just 'road feedback' and which one need some corrective input...especially when you start to push on.
- I feel I can tell the car is slightly lighter on its toes than the standard 996 GT3 (which I also have) especially when the ceramic discs are on too...its a small difference...but noticeable.
- you can just sense that it is something special...in my view destined to be special in the future...that is just personal opinion
Some of us have been lucky to try it on a track and understand what it does and how it does it...yes, that is likely to reduce as the values go up.
Mine is now basically a garage queen..it is almost like a piece of art, a piece of automotive history (a bit sad that)...but each time I look at it, I 'know' what it is capable of...and funnily enough I do not need to spank it round a track to remind myself of it. It is like owning a 240mph Veyron...not many owners have been near 200mph with it...but they know it can and therefore love it for what it can do.
Of course, if it is your only sports car (in additional to the daily driver), then it may not fill all the usage boxes (i.e. take the girlfriend to a nice restaurant and park outside)..if you never take it to a track or have done in the past then you may wonder what the fuss was about...if you have not nurtured the setup you may never bond with it...etc
Also, lets be honest, the values debate is part of the charm...I like the fact that almost with all 996 GT3/RSs you can own them, drive them, and then sell them for more than you paid for them...I've done this for the last 6 years and it continues to be the case (yes, ignore the maintenance costs because if you get too hooked to the 'nurturing' game then its man maths time!)
Finally, at some point, I may need to let go of one of my Porsches to free up some capital. I will at some time put up a thread asking 'if you had to sell a 4.0 or a 996 RS, which one would it be?'...because right now, the head may say keep the 4.0 but the heart does not agree
Sorry...that was the brief version!
No need to apologise, it's cracking post !Agree with so much of what you say there
It is particularly interesting when one does compare with the 4.0...both amazing, yet each has its own place. Perhaps surprisingly, I think I would find the 4.0 easier to get rid of then the 996 RS
Slippy, there is so much that could be said here but trying to keep it brief
First of all, I think you are asking the wrong question. If you put is as 'is this a good car or a bad car' question, you end up getting opposing views from each camp.
Everyone's needs, uses, roads, experience, desires, other cars in the household, etc, are so different that the answer is always personally loaded.
Plus as we know, there is so much adjustability in these cars added to which they are so so sensitive to each degree of adjustment, that no two cars are quite the same.
Therefore one of the joys in my view is to hone the car to your own particular needs over time....yes this usually means that those that spend more time on this, perhaps use it a little on track as well, will extract greater pleasure. Those that just jump in and drive around (perhaps with someone else's setup) may find it unrewarding.
In addition, I think not every car is running in tip top condition - are the dampers in good nick? Is the rear diff optimum? Are the tyres 'round' (I've had silly handling issues from two sets of used rubber only to be cured by a brand new set of tyres)? Is the engine working optimally (I had one car with a malfunctioning cam actuator..it was losing around 40/50 bhp...difficult to detect but takes away the sharp edge from the engine).
Stefan1's description of adjustability on the throttle (push/tuck in/rotation) only happens with a well functioning diff..ideally the more aggressive cup plates
I personally find alien reports of 'it threw me off the road' 'sniffs every camber' etc...but I cannot tell if they are due to other people's duff cars (e.g. setup) or something missing in driving ability (unlikely)
So, I think you need to consider it not as good/bad, but as what space it fills in the ownership experience.
- Old school analogue feel in a more modern and reliable package
- More analogue than the later variants....if you jump out of a big 997.2 RS into a svelte 996 RS the levels of connectivity and feel go up the scale (I've got both so not a biased opinion)
- Drive to a euro circuit, round all day, and back home without skipping a beat
- Heritage linking back to the 1999 LM GT1 and earlier race cars (yes, I know, all pre 991 GT3s share this)
- The first GT3 RS
- The closest RS to the race car of the time
- I found my second 996 RS (fresh dampers, a strong engine) easier to drive on the road than my first 996 GT3 mk2 (Parr stage 1 geo)
- Its an RS!...love the RS bits - carbon fibre bonnet, plastic windows, carbon spoiler, etc
- I can't put this into words, but even driving on fast A roads, sweeping bends, its like you are dancing on your toes...it reminds me of the old clint eastwood film 'firefox' where he is controlling the plane with his thoughts...I feel I can communicate with the car and it with me across so many interfaces (hands, bum, feet, pedals, etc)...and it translates your inputs almost immediately.
- yes, it skips around a little, the steering is fighting under your loose grip...but you need to learn to trust those steering movements and learn to read which ones are just 'road feedback' and which one need some corrective input...especially when you start to push on.
- I feel I can tell the car is slightly lighter on its toes than the standard 996 GT3 (which I also have) especially when the ceramic discs are on too...its a small difference...but noticeable.
- you can just sense that it is something special...in my view destined to be special in the future...that is just personal opinion
Some of us have been lucky to try it on a track and understand what it does and how it does it...yes, that is likely to reduce as the values go up.
Mine is now basically a garage queen..it is almost like a piece of art, a piece of automotive history (a bit sad that)...but each time I look at it, I 'know' what it is capable of...and funnily enough I do not need to spank it round a track to remind myself of it. It is like owning a 240mph Veyron...not many owners have been near 200mph with it...but they know it can and therefore love it for what it can do.
Of course, if it is your only sports car (in additional to the daily driver), then it may not fill all the usage boxes (i.e. take the girlfriend to a nice restaurant and park outside)..if you never take it to a track or have done in the past then you may wonder what the fuss was about...if you have not nurtured the setup you may never bond with it...etc
Also, lets be honest, the values debate is part of the charm...I like the fact that almost with all 996 GT3/RSs you can own them, drive them, and then sell them for more than you paid for them...I've done this for the last 6 years and it continues to be the case (yes, ignore the maintenance costs because if you get too hooked to the 'nurturing' game then its man maths time!)
Finally, at some point, I may need to let go of one of my Porsches to free up some capital. I will at some time put up a thread asking 'if you had to sell a 4.0 or a 996 RS, which one would it be?'...because right now, the head may say keep the 4.0 but the heart does not agree
Sorry...that was the brief version!
I suspect we could spend a very long night in the pub discussing all the above......
But in essence I agree with pretty much everything in your post. It appears we share the same ownership philosophy and have arrived at the conclusions, all be it mine have been based solely on road usage, whereas you
and others have served your time on track too. Some (many) will maintain that's where these cars really shine. I'm not in complete agreement with that, as whilst flawed for many as a road car, I tend to view that as their primary raison d'être, and when it comes to providing a blend of practicality, durability, tactility & engagement in a road car, I tend to think the RS & GT models have NO peers.
Thank you too for posting in an unpatronising manner, I may be considered by some to be "only an enthusiast" (aren't we all ?) because I've not raced or served my time on track, but I suspect that in the last twelve or so years, I've spent more time behind the wheels of a greater number of water and arircooled GT/RS cars than many. I've also owned them, which I again suspect makes me better qualified than some individuals to comment on them and their road manners ! !
Interesting comments on the KW spring rates, they mirror and confirm exactly what I felt through the seat of my pants. And whilst a reduction of 5 n/mm sounds nothing, it makes a massive difference to how the front end of a 911 behaves over bumpy Tarmac.
Edited by Slippydiff on Thursday 17th July 09:00
what do people call road speeds, legal speeds or real speeds ?
My car was set up as soft as I could get away with, but you could not do the fosse way at 120mph which is still in 3rd gear ! :-)
And I still put it more down to the ARB's and not the dampers, any thing but full soft on the front ARB will have you in a ditch at speed on a bumpy B road.
I guess on track the dampers and springs will feel too soft, and there are no bumps to upset the ARB's and steering.
ie doing the A43 was no issue at speed. but who wants to drive a GT3 on A roads ?
My car was set up as soft as I could get away with, but you could not do the fosse way at 120mph which is still in 3rd gear ! :-)
And I still put it more down to the ARB's and not the dampers, any thing but full soft on the front ARB will have you in a ditch at speed on a bumpy B road.
I guess on track the dampers and springs will feel too soft, and there are no bumps to upset the ARB's and steering.
ie doing the A43 was no issue at speed. but who wants to drive a GT3 on A roads ?
I have had only a brief spell in a 996 GT3 RS after expressing an interest in one of the two that were for sale in circa 2010/11. Paragon kindly offered me a test drive. Whilst obviously not at full pelt in the rural roads of Sussex I enjoyed the experience. It certainly did not bounce me around anymore than my straight 996 GT3.
Again it depends what you want or expect but the raw feeling and close contact with everything on the road is what does it for me. Anyone who has ever driven the road from Monschau to Eupen (Monschauer Strasse N67/L214) through the Eifel Region in a 996 GT3 at full pelt will realize that experience. Until fairly recently it was concrete blocks covered in potholes with crests and dips along the 5 mile straight. In the last twelve months it has been covered in tarmac.
I put the bad experience with GT3/RS into the same box as those that complain of hard drives (suspension as opposed to effort) and descriptions of the tiring effort with a hard clutch pedal. It is not for everyone. Hard work when driving is part of the enjoyment for me at least.
Pip
Ps as for this (below) it is surely a difficult one especially as the prices of both are so far apart that this will throw in the question of how much you need to realise. On top of that it limits peoples opinions mainly to those who have driven/owned a RS 4.0 not solely of course but....
Again it depends what you want or expect but the raw feeling and close contact with everything on the road is what does it for me. Anyone who has ever driven the road from Monschau to Eupen (Monschauer Strasse N67/L214) through the Eifel Region in a 996 GT3 at full pelt will realize that experience. Until fairly recently it was concrete blocks covered in potholes with crests and dips along the 5 mile straight. In the last twelve months it has been covered in tarmac.
I put the bad experience with GT3/RS into the same box as those that complain of hard drives (suspension as opposed to effort) and descriptions of the tiring effort with a hard clutch pedal. It is not for everyone. Hard work when driving is part of the enjoyment for me at least.
Pip
Ps as for this (below) it is surely a difficult one especially as the prices of both are so far apart that this will throw in the question of how much you need to realise. On top of that it limits peoples opinions mainly to those who have driven/owned a RS 4.0 not solely of course but....
LaSource said:
Finally, at some point, I may need to let go of one of my Porsches to free up some capital. I will at some time put up a thread asking 'if you had to sell a 4.0 or a 996 RS, which one would it be?'...because right now, the head may say keep the 4.0 but the heart does not agree
Sorry...that was the brief version!
Sorry...that was the brief version!
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 17th July 00:56
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 17th July 00:58
Pip1968 said:
I have had only a brief spell in a 996 GT3 RS after expressing an interest in one of the two that were for sale in circa 2010/11. Paragon kindly offered me a test drive. Whilst obviously not at full pelt in the rural roads of Sussex I enjoyed the experience. It certainly did not bounce me around anymore than my straight 996 GT3.
Again it depends what you want or expect but the raw feeling and close contact with everything on the road is what does it for me. Anyone who has ever driven the road from Monschau to Eupen (Monschauer Strasse N67/L214) through the Eifel Region in a 996 GT3 at full pelt will realize that experience. Until fairly recently it was concrete blocks covered in potholes with crests and dips along the 5 mile straight. In the last twelve months it has been covered in tarmac.
I put the bad experience with GT3/RS into the same box as those that complain of hard drives (suspension as opposed to effort) and descriptions of the tiring effort with a hard clutch pedal. It is not for everyone. Hard work when driving is part of the enjoyment for me at least.
Pip
Ps as for this (below) it is surely a difficult one especially as the prices of both are so far apart that this will throw in the question of how much you need to realise. On top of that it limits peoples opinions mainly to those who have driven/owned a RS 4.0 not solely of course but....
I know what you mean!Again it depends what you want or expect but the raw feeling and close contact with everything on the road is what does it for me. Anyone who has ever driven the road from Monschau to Eupen (Monschauer Strasse N67/L214) through the Eifel Region in a 996 GT3 at full pelt will realize that experience. Until fairly recently it was concrete blocks covered in potholes with crests and dips along the 5 mile straight. In the last twelve months it has been covered in tarmac.
I put the bad experience with GT3/RS into the same box as those that complain of hard drives (suspension as opposed to effort) and descriptions of the tiring effort with a hard clutch pedal. It is not for everyone. Hard work when driving is part of the enjoyment for me at least.
Pip
Ps as for this (below) it is surely a difficult one especially as the prices of both are so far apart that this will throw in the question of how much you need to realise. On top of that it limits peoples opinions mainly to those who have driven/owned a RS 4.0 not solely of course but....
LaSource said:
Finally, at some point, I may need to let go of one of my Porsches to free up some capital. I will at some time put up a thread asking 'if you had to sell a 4.0 or a 996 RS, which one would it be?'...because right now, the head may say keep the 4.0 but the heart does not agree
Sorry...that was the brief version!
Sorry...that was the brief version!
The roads in the Eifel region are relatively smooth with great sight lines...perfect playground for these cars!
My final point on 996RS vs 4.0RS is perhaps more loaded towards future appreciation then it is towards driving experience...which I think more people can have a view on then just owners...but I see your point.
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 17th July 11:23
Slippydiff said:
Evening Steve !
Yep, I've already covered that base with the above specially for you ^
I struggle to believe that this is purely a set up issue, or indeed that so many of the these cars are that poorly set up ?
As I've said on here previously, I'd genuinely like to try a properly set up (within factory specs) car with accurately adjusted ride heights, corner weights and geo along with fresh dampers and new tyres. Does anyone on here have such a car (as in all honesty I'd happily settle for pax ride along a suitable section of testing A or B road in such a car)
I think that this is the nub of it to be honest. The GT3 in it's 996 form was a dumbed down race car. Far more extreme that previous RS models. I think that this gave porsche the green light to produce an uber extreme version of the car for the RS version - which it did. Yep, I've already covered that base with the above specially for you ^
I struggle to believe that this is purely a set up issue, or indeed that so many of the these cars are that poorly set up ?
As I've said on here previously, I'd genuinely like to try a properly set up (within factory specs) car with accurately adjusted ride heights, corner weights and geo along with fresh dampers and new tyres. Does anyone on here have such a car (as in all honesty I'd happily settle for pax ride along a suitable section of testing A or B road in such a car)
Based on this , there was only one way for Porsche to go which was to build the car even closer to the 996 Cup which was effectively the 'doner' car for the GT3 range. Like any race car, the closer you drive it to it's performance envelope - 9-10/10ths, the more it will reward.
I suppose that based on this, your argument that standard GT3's having 'better' road manners has merit. It is only a matter of degree as all of the 996 GT3 range was extreme and needs to be viewd as such when driving on the road. The RS was just a more extreme version of an already very extreme range.
In answer to your question Slippy, i've probably driven 10-15K road miles in various 996RS's in different states of set up from standard to full race. Never had a problem, always lovely and benign on the road. No 'bouncing' or scary waywardness at all. What I would say is that the 20+K Road miles that I travelled in my MK1 (wish i'd never sold it) were slightly more compliant and comfortable. The difference was that the RS always felt far more connected and responsive.
One thing that may be a factor in our relative experiences is that All of the cars that I drove on the road had well developed set ups which worked and had a good balance. Well i though so because I set them up! I havnt driven any (dont think) on the road that had other set ups on them. I have - however driven pleny of cars on the circuit with horrible set ups applied by tuners that didn't know what they were doing. These cars are VERY sensitive to geo changes and there was a tendancy to apply more rake to GT3's to improve turn in. This was NOT a good plan at all and would make cars VERY nervous on the road. The car already had good turn in. More rake made the car horrible. maybe this was the issue with your car.
All of the 6 GT3's are in my opinion extremely special. If you want a road compliant version and had little intention of track driving then I'd go for a Gen1. If you want a genuine GT race car experience for the road then the 6RS has absolutely no pier. I believe it to be the pinacle of the genuine modern (relatively) GT road/race car and falls into a very small and exclusive category which includes the 250GTO, 288GTO, D, Type, C type, F40. These are the cars by which the 6RS should be judged and in this company, it more than holds it's own.
Considering that you are buying into that experience with the provenance of being based on one of the most the most successful sports racing cars of all time, the 6RS is an absolute bargain never to be repeated.
The D type and the F40 have far worse road manners than the RS ( lucky enough to have driven them ) but they all bring a thrill to driving on the road that is so rare that it's almost priceless. Get them on the track and it gets even better.
So to get to your point. No, the 6RS is not a better road car than other 6GT3's but it offers something far rarer to the decerning driver
Edited by Steve Rance on Thursday 17th July 10:56
Edited by Steve Rance on Thursday 17th July 11:05
RDMcG said:
This is a superb thread ,no posturing,just lots of really good balanced information. I am grateful to those with experience and knowledge of this model for being able to describe it in more detail than I have previously seen.
^^, +1Steve Rance said:
All of the 6 GT3's are in my opinion extremely special. If you want a road compliant version and had little intention of track driving then I'd go for a Gen1. If you want a genuine GT race car experience for the road then the 6RS has absolutely no pier. I believe it to be the pinacle of the genuine modern (relatively) GT road/race car and falls into a very small and exclusive category which includes the 250GTO, 288GTO, D, Type, C type, F40. These are the cars by which the 6RS should be judged and in this company, it more than holds it's own.
If I could ask a potentially slightly out of topic question here - how does the driving experience of a CGT compare to the 6RS? The CGT for me was by far the most 'race-car' feeling road car I had ever been lucky enough to drive (infinitely more than the 7 gt3s) and if the 6RS can offer something like that, at 1/3rd the cost of a CGT with far lower maintenance costs, it's got to be a steal!Two comments caught my eye above:
First - absolutely agree that having a Cup rear diff improves the car; the standard diff wears out quite quickly.
Second - I strongly agree with Steve; the harder these cars are driven, the more they reward. And I'd go further - this is car to learn in and develop one's skills. The better you are as a driver, the more you can get from the GT3 (RS or not). I am still firmly in the learning phase - and that's a bit part of the fun. Few cars reward this learning process as richly.
First - absolutely agree that having a Cup rear diff improves the car; the standard diff wears out quite quickly.
Second - I strongly agree with Steve; the harder these cars are driven, the more they reward. And I'd go further - this is car to learn in and develop one's skills. The better you are as a driver, the more you can get from the GT3 (RS or not). I am still firmly in the learning phase - and that's a bit part of the fun. Few cars reward this learning process as richly.
isaldiri said:
If I could ask a potentially slightly out of topic question here - how does the driving experience of a CGT compare to the 6RS? The CGT for me was by far the most 'race-car' feeling road car I had ever been lucky enough to drive (infinitely more than the 7 gt3s) and if the 6RS can offer something like that, at 1/3rd the cost of a CGT with far lower maintenance costs, it's got to be a steal!
I drove a CGT at Lemans Bugatti shortly after it's launch. To me, it was a car that had been developed beyond the tyre technology of the time and felt a little gripless as a result. Wonderful chasis but more of a sports prototype feel than a GT car. Equally as impressive in this context as the 6RS. Quite amazing on current technology tyres I would imagine.However, like the 6RS, it provides huge amounts of feel through it's chasis for the driver to act upon but ultimately relies on the driver to provide all of the primary inputs. Fantastic drivers car
isaldiri said:
If I could ask a potentially slightly out of topic question here - how does the driving experience of a CGT compare to the 6RS? The CGT for me was by far the most 'race-car' feeling road car I had ever been lucky enough to drive (infinitely more than the 7 gt3s) and if the 6RS can offer something like that, at 1/3rd the cost of a CGT with far lower maintenance costs, it's got to be a steal!
The 6 is a bit closer to the CGT than a 7, but only a bit. The controls on the CGT, as you already know, are more precise, and obviously the balance of the cars is different. stefan1 said:
And I'd go further - this is car to learn in and develop one's skills. The better you are as a driver, the more you can get from the GT3 (RS or not). I am still firmly in the learning phase - and that's a bit part of the fun. Few cars reward this learning process as richly.
Excellent thread, agree with Stefan that this is the great deep end to learn & learn so well. But therein is also the issue - the entry cost is now so high that this facility is not available to most ( sorry value content in that post ).Not instant gratification (and why so many misunderstand ) but long term reverence if you persist - and you are a reasonably good driver.
Mermaid said:
stefan1 said:
And I'd go further - this is car to learn in and develop one's skills. The better you are as a driver, the more you can get from the GT3 (RS or not). I am still firmly in the learning phase - and that's a bit part of the fun. Few cars reward this learning process as richly.
Excellent thread, agree with Stefan that this is the great deep end to learn & learn so well. But therein is also the issue - the entry cost is now so high that this facility is not available to most ( sorry value content in that post ).Not instant gratification (and why so many misunderstand ) but long term reverence if you persist - and you are a reasonably good driver.
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