997 Gen 2 Engine Failure/Bore Scoring
Discussion
Hi Everyone,
Just curious/wondering if any of you (or know of anyone) have had a major engine problem/failure/bore scoring with a Gen 2 997?
I'am not new to Porsche, but currently own a gen 2 997. I am still unsure whether to extend the OPC warranty. I'am leaning not to do it. I know these engines are much more robust, have better cooling & are DFI etc, etc.But Hartech feel it is only a matter of time that we'll see some engine failures with these engines (possibly due to the Alusil construction) - but probably in much fewer numbers than Gen 1 cars.
Just curious/wondering if any of you (or know of anyone) have had a major engine problem/failure/bore scoring with a Gen 2 997?
I'am not new to Porsche, but currently own a gen 2 997. I am still unsure whether to extend the OPC warranty. I'am leaning not to do it. I know these engines are much more robust, have better cooling & are DFI etc, etc.But Hartech feel it is only a matter of time that we'll see some engine failures with these engines (possibly due to the Alusil construction) - but probably in much fewer numbers than Gen 1 cars.
Although Hartech has hinted at this due to the piston coating and not the bores but there are no specifics ie is it only early cars?was the piston coating changed during production ?and if any occurrence at what mileage?
Personally I would not worry about it and I have only read of early 2.9 engines failing due to Pistons and one random 997.2 engine failure on here which could have been down to a number of other factors!
So in over 7 years of production I would say that hints to a pretty robust engine although random failures can occur even on the mighty indestructible mezger engine!
Personally I would not worry about it and I have only read of early 2.9 engines failing due to Pistons and one random 997.2 engine failure on here which could have been down to a number of other factors!
So in over 7 years of production I would say that hints to a pretty robust engine although random failures can occur even on the mighty indestructible mezger engine!
I miised any info about the Gen 2 failure - any clues? What a shame we didn't get to see inside the Gen 2 engine (or a photo of a piston) - as this might have enabled us to establish the piston coating or cause! I guess it was sent back to the factory?
We have a Gen 2 engine stripped and it does have a type of ferrous coated piston (which is good) but it seems like the coating we tried on pistons in Lokasil that was not as good as the original ferrocoat used in the first M96 engines (although it doesn't need to be as good as Alusil used in Gen 2 is better than Lokasil used in Gen 1 - in our opinion - based on our own research).
We have been informed however and seen a piston we thought was from a Gen 2 that had a plastic coated piston (and had scored) hence the uncertainty - was that a mistake or red herring (so there are two types of coating in use) or are they all some form of ferrous coating? All obviously important to start trying to analyse what the likelihood is of Gen 2 failures.
I don't expect there to be many failures unless plastic coating was tried and found not to be as good as the other pistons which now supersede them?
Inside the various engines we have stripped over the last 10 years we do occasionally find a different part with no unusual identifying marks (but definitely a different design or specification) and this makes me wonder if sometimes different designs are tried on sales cars to test out which is best?
A good example is some crank carriers manufactured without the heavy metal inserts but just all aluminium.
Baz
We have a Gen 2 engine stripped and it does have a type of ferrous coated piston (which is good) but it seems like the coating we tried on pistons in Lokasil that was not as good as the original ferrocoat used in the first M96 engines (although it doesn't need to be as good as Alusil used in Gen 2 is better than Lokasil used in Gen 1 - in our opinion - based on our own research).
We have been informed however and seen a piston we thought was from a Gen 2 that had a plastic coated piston (and had scored) hence the uncertainty - was that a mistake or red herring (so there are two types of coating in use) or are they all some form of ferrous coating? All obviously important to start trying to analyse what the likelihood is of Gen 2 failures.
I don't expect there to be many failures unless plastic coating was tried and found not to be as good as the other pistons which now supersede them?
Inside the various engines we have stripped over the last 10 years we do occasionally find a different part with no unusual identifying marks (but definitely a different design or specification) and this makes me wonder if sometimes different designs are tried on sales cars to test out which is best?
A good example is some crank carriers manufactured without the heavy metal inserts but just all aluminium.
Baz
I recently saw on watchdog,complaints from owners of the Audi 2.0 fsi constantly feeding there cars oil,there was a manufacturing fault with the pistons,this was rectified in america but not here,or at least till it was aired on watchdog
when the upshot was audi then put there hands up and repaired the cars that where affected.
I also own a Nissan primastar 2.0 115 dci, and very recently had a misfire on one of the injectors.I gave the vehicle to my fitter who assured me he could not remove the injector without snapping it as they weld themselves to the cylinder head and this was a manufacturing fault,I approached Nissan commercial whom did not want to get involved and denied having any knowledge of this problem.I then had to spend a large amount of money to get the offending injector out.After a few weeks I just happened to be in the front room when watchdog was on and they were talking about the problem with the nissan primastar , they had embarrassed nissan into fixing the issue.The upshot was I then rang nissan uk who have now given me the money back that I had spent fixing this.
Surely this should go the same way with affected Porsche 911's,I personally own a 997 c4s with very low mileage and I do a very strict warm up with the car before I drive it,I dont know for sure if this is correct but it makes me feel happy
and my car uses no Oil and does not smoke from cold. I have read numerous threads on this problem and it is only a small amount of cars that have had these issues but all the same it would be interesting to see if anyone is willing to go to watchdog with this and see how Porsche react
when the upshot was audi then put there hands up and repaired the cars that where affected.
I also own a Nissan primastar 2.0 115 dci, and very recently had a misfire on one of the injectors.I gave the vehicle to my fitter who assured me he could not remove the injector without snapping it as they weld themselves to the cylinder head and this was a manufacturing fault,I approached Nissan commercial whom did not want to get involved and denied having any knowledge of this problem.I then had to spend a large amount of money to get the offending injector out.After a few weeks I just happened to be in the front room when watchdog was on and they were talking about the problem with the nissan primastar , they had embarrassed nissan into fixing the issue.The upshot was I then rang nissan uk who have now given me the money back that I had spent fixing this.
Surely this should go the same way with affected Porsche 911's,I personally own a 997 c4s with very low mileage and I do a very strict warm up with the car before I drive it,I dont know for sure if this is correct but it makes me feel happy
and my car uses no Oil and does not smoke from cold. I have read numerous threads on this problem and it is only a small amount of cars that have had these issues but all the same it would be interesting to see if anyone is willing to go to watchdog with this and see how Porsche react
I know this is a little off topic but is anyone else not bitterly dissapointed at these sort of "expected" problems with porsches?
I really think its next to a joke that half the time you are waiting for a porsche engine to go pop!
I know some people will come to its defense but with the greatest of respect if these sorts of major problems were happeneing for over a decade on any other main stream car they would be mocked to kingdom come for years and years.
It seems to be because its a porsche it gets away with it to some extent.
Seen a lovely 996 2003 I was interested in and it was flawless in everyway. Called a few specialists including hartech and it fundementally came down to, own it, enjoy it but also be ready to fork out 8K+ for an engine rebuild when it needs it, it might be in your ownership it might not.
Who on earth wants to own a car that is very very very likely to pop at some stage in its life.
Don't get me wrong I know most cars at some point or another have issues - of course they do but the issues porsche has seem to be fundemental to its function!
I really think its next to a joke that half the time you are waiting for a porsche engine to go pop!
I know some people will come to its defense but with the greatest of respect if these sorts of major problems were happeneing for over a decade on any other main stream car they would be mocked to kingdom come for years and years.
It seems to be because its a porsche it gets away with it to some extent.
Seen a lovely 996 2003 I was interested in and it was flawless in everyway. Called a few specialists including hartech and it fundementally came down to, own it, enjoy it but also be ready to fork out 8K+ for an engine rebuild when it needs it, it might be in your ownership it might not.
Who on earth wants to own a car that is very very very likely to pop at some stage in its life.
Don't get me wrong I know most cars at some point or another have issues - of course they do but the issues porsche has seem to be fundemental to its function!
Very true that's why I always say /advise people do not buy a porsche built between 1998 and 2009( turbo and gt3 models excluded)!It doesn't get the tag chocolate engine for no reason !
Yes there are good companies like hartech who can address the problems but like you say who wants to drive a ticking time bomb wondering if the engine is going to implode whilst out driving!
Bore scoring can be caught in time limiting damage but an IMS failure is usually catastrophic
Yes there are good companies like hartech who can address the problems but like you say who wants to drive a ticking time bomb wondering if the engine is going to implode whilst out driving!
Bore scoring can be caught in time limiting damage but an IMS failure is usually catastrophic
You could be right but I think that prices of older used versions are lower (due to their reputation) than the equivalent would have been for a 993 at similar age (relative to the new price) and they are great cars.
Taking into consideration that we already know that bore go oval and eventually crack, on some models piston coatings wear off and they score bores, while on others an IMS failure may occur - there seems some sense to me if the whole engine has all potential faults fixed during a rebuild that renders it more reliable for a long time ahead.
They are relatively inexpensive to run on other essentials and wear and tear components and all Porsche over a longer period of time appreciate (and those with the engines fixed properly even more so).
Gearboxes are good (especially tiptronics) and they are quiet, comfy, fast and can be reliable.
Modern production methods and costs savings mean all modern sports cars will have some problems in the mix of statistics (even much older ones converted from road engines were similar) and there is always a price to pay for performance - of which these have plenty!
I think the bodywork will outlast the 964/993 style without major expensive work as well - so - I would be less certain about my conclusion and feel it is more likely that future owners will see the sense in having an engine rebuilt before there is a failure and in the process result in two levels of prices.
Yes you could accuse me of having a vested interest but you know anything I say on this network (with limited readership of those already interested in the models) will make no difference to the outcome - the market is much bigger and stronger than anything I can influence - no - these are just my opinions and no one will know who is right or wrong until the fullness of time a few years hence.
Baz
Taking into consideration that we already know that bore go oval and eventually crack, on some models piston coatings wear off and they score bores, while on others an IMS failure may occur - there seems some sense to me if the whole engine has all potential faults fixed during a rebuild that renders it more reliable for a long time ahead.
They are relatively inexpensive to run on other essentials and wear and tear components and all Porsche over a longer period of time appreciate (and those with the engines fixed properly even more so).
Gearboxes are good (especially tiptronics) and they are quiet, comfy, fast and can be reliable.
Modern production methods and costs savings mean all modern sports cars will have some problems in the mix of statistics (even much older ones converted from road engines were similar) and there is always a price to pay for performance - of which these have plenty!
I think the bodywork will outlast the 964/993 style without major expensive work as well - so - I would be less certain about my conclusion and feel it is more likely that future owners will see the sense in having an engine rebuilt before there is a failure and in the process result in two levels of prices.
Yes you could accuse me of having a vested interest but you know anything I say on this network (with limited readership of those already interested in the models) will make no difference to the outcome - the market is much bigger and stronger than anything I can influence - no - these are just my opinions and no one will know who is right or wrong until the fullness of time a few years hence.
Baz
hartech said:
I think the bodywork will outlast the 964/993 style without major expensive work as well - so - I would be less certain about my conclusion and feel it is more likely that future owners will see the sense in having an engine rebuilt before there is a failure and in the process result in two levels of prices.
Baz
Very true in many ways. The piece above that I have quoted is true if anyone was in the market for say a 996 NA, Gen 1 997 NA or even older 911s where there is known to be a problem. Take your point - it would be worth sorting the engine issues out. But with a Gen 2 997, 991s where there is little evidence (yet) of what the potential problems are etc it is a big ask for someone to get major engine rebuild work done. Surely it is too early to tell? Baz
Andrew911 said:
But with a Gen 2 997, 991s where there is little evidence (yet) of what the potential problems are etc it is a big ask for someone to get major engine rebuild work done. Surely it is too early to tell?
the story so far after 7 years of gen2 no real problems have raised there ugly heads and for now you can buy a gen2 with confidence that it most likely will not need a rebuild any time soon if at all
itsybitsy said:
so far after 7 years of gen2 no real problems have raised their ugly heads and for now you can buy a gen2 with confidence that it most likely will not need a rebuild any time soon if at all
Nice to read and I have no doubt of that being true. It saddens me that negative threads generate the most unnerving response and a google search shows that they eclipse thousands of Gen 1 and Gen2 owners that have never had a single issue in this respect..
Edited by bigkeeko on Friday 11th September 04:50
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