996 Turbo X50 Manual - Can't Decide?
Discussion
I've been using the classifieds section and reading the forum on Pistonheads for over 10 years so I'd welcome the views from fellow petrolheads.
Having previously been fortunate to own various sports cars (964 RS x 2, M3 CSL, 968CS, Saleen Mustang) I'm now hoping to acquire another 911. Sadly due to the massive rise in prices (!!) it won't be another 964 or a 993 but a 996.
Due to all the potential issues associated with the standard 996/997 engines I'm looking at a 996 Turbo. Finding exactly the right spec especially a manual X50 is proving difficult however one has emerged, but ..... there's usually a but.
It's the much debated subject of over revs. The data recently obtained from an OPC is as follows:-
Range One Over Revs 25232 ignitions @ 3637 operating hours
Range Two Over Revs 391 ignitions @ 3627 operating hours
Total Operating Hours 3639 hours
Mileage 63000 miles
Year 2004
The recent RR1 over rev was only two hours before the test and I suspect this was either a test drive or a sales guy on a pizza run over lunch !!
The latest RR2 was 12 hours prior and is within the considered 50 hours 'area of concern'.
Myself and a good friend (Porsche Turbo owner) have test driven the car without knowing about the over revs and it's one of the best I've driven so far. The previous owners have adhered to the official service schedule ie every 2 years or 20k miles (why on earth did Porsche change to this its madness). Ideally I'd prefer to see an oil and filter change at least every year.
If I were to go ahead I'd want leak down and compression tests to be done plus a borescope examination. My question then surrounds the RR2 over rev, how concerning is this?
The dilemma is that 996 Turbo prices have been rising at an alarming rate and manuals with reasonable mileage are increasing almost weekly judging by dealers ads. A similar spec'd car is currently advertised at £50k and its not an X50.
Do I pass on this one and wait for more cars to be come available in the Spring although will prices have jumped beyond reach by then?
Many thanks in advance for any thoughts .......
Having previously been fortunate to own various sports cars (964 RS x 2, M3 CSL, 968CS, Saleen Mustang) I'm now hoping to acquire another 911. Sadly due to the massive rise in prices (!!) it won't be another 964 or a 993 but a 996.
Due to all the potential issues associated with the standard 996/997 engines I'm looking at a 996 Turbo. Finding exactly the right spec especially a manual X50 is proving difficult however one has emerged, but ..... there's usually a but.
It's the much debated subject of over revs. The data recently obtained from an OPC is as follows:-
Range One Over Revs 25232 ignitions @ 3637 operating hours
Range Two Over Revs 391 ignitions @ 3627 operating hours
Total Operating Hours 3639 hours
Mileage 63000 miles
Year 2004
The recent RR1 over rev was only two hours before the test and I suspect this was either a test drive or a sales guy on a pizza run over lunch !!
The latest RR2 was 12 hours prior and is within the considered 50 hours 'area of concern'.
Myself and a good friend (Porsche Turbo owner) have test driven the car without knowing about the over revs and it's one of the best I've driven so far. The previous owners have adhered to the official service schedule ie every 2 years or 20k miles (why on earth did Porsche change to this its madness). Ideally I'd prefer to see an oil and filter change at least every year.
If I were to go ahead I'd want leak down and compression tests to be done plus a borescope examination. My question then surrounds the RR2 over rev, how concerning is this?
The dilemma is that 996 Turbo prices have been rising at an alarming rate and manuals with reasonable mileage are increasing almost weekly judging by dealers ads. A similar spec'd car is currently advertised at £50k and its not an X50.
Do I pass on this one and wait for more cars to be come available in the Spring although will prices have jumped beyond reach by then?
Many thanks in advance for any thoughts .......
Edited by PorscheTB0 on Tuesday 5th January 13:25
Edited by PorscheTB0 on Tuesday 5th January 13:32
On a 996, range 2 is a worry (not so on 997 or later). Personally, I'd probably walk away from this one. If I was to consider it, I'd want a really thorough inspection of that engine, to the point that it would probably be necessary to drop the engine out of the car for the inspection.
Range 2 incidents can damage more than just bores - they can impact on many parts of the engine.
Read the last paragraph on this page to see the potential impact:
http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-informa...
Range 2 incidents can damage more than just bores - they can impact on many parts of the engine.
Read the last paragraph on this page to see the potential impact:
http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-informa...
End of the day anything can go at anytime. If somebody tracks the car and does a spin without jumping on the clutch and goes backwards the timing chain could for example fail after 200 hours. Who knows....
Yes - turbos are expensive and they will fail. One of the reasons I moved to a GT3, not that this is any cheaper!
Yes - turbos are expensive and they will fail. One of the reasons I moved to a GT3, not that this is any cheaper!
Onetrackmind said:
Could you not just buy it but insist on a long warranty? Surely the engine would fail relatively soon if there was damage and then you could have it rebuilt at no cost to you.
Unfortunately the dealer will only offer a 3 month warranty and I'm not sure that would cover a rebuild as there's a max claim limit of £5k. I could pay more for a longer warranty however the limit would be the same. As an investment the car will clearly not be as good as a 'clean' car, as you have already seen people would walk purely on RR data.
However I'm not a fan of buying cars based on supplementing paperwork only and bought my GT2 with more ignitions then yours (1 was maxed out, computer only reads 35000 something and in 2 it has 1100 or so, but mine also is tuned and has limiter set to 7250).
After speaking to two well respected UK specialist on the matter, and also two race teams with much experience on these engines the consensus was that there was no real consensus. But for one thing these engines can safely run at higher rpm, though in standard trim there is no point due to restrictions to the inlet. The other thing was that if the engine was seriously over revved it would fail straight away. None of them could provide an example of a car that was over revved and failed at a later point due this, but never the less one of the specialists wouldn't buy an over revved car. I suspect because it would be lots harder to sell on. The 50 hour rule seems take out of feeling rather then anything else.
If it was me and I wanted a car for investment I would probably continue my search, I mean you can see the reluctance to buy these cars right here with threads where people wouldn't even touch 997's with RR1 or RR2 ignitions!
But as a drivers car do you research, use the RR data to negotiate and buy the thing. Also I suggest doing further research on any car with zero ignitions as I was offered to have my ECU reset to 0 without trace, and there has also been threads on here about the subject though some specialist claims it can't be done (without trace).
To me it feels like Porsche's crude way of analyzing data to regulate warranty claims.
However I'm not a fan of buying cars based on supplementing paperwork only and bought my GT2 with more ignitions then yours (1 was maxed out, computer only reads 35000 something and in 2 it has 1100 or so, but mine also is tuned and has limiter set to 7250).
After speaking to two well respected UK specialist on the matter, and also two race teams with much experience on these engines the consensus was that there was no real consensus. But for one thing these engines can safely run at higher rpm, though in standard trim there is no point due to restrictions to the inlet. The other thing was that if the engine was seriously over revved it would fail straight away. None of them could provide an example of a car that was over revved and failed at a later point due this, but never the less one of the specialists wouldn't buy an over revved car. I suspect because it would be lots harder to sell on. The 50 hour rule seems take out of feeling rather then anything else.
If it was me and I wanted a car for investment I would probably continue my search, I mean you can see the reluctance to buy these cars right here with threads where people wouldn't even touch 997's with RR1 or RR2 ignitions!
But as a drivers car do you research, use the RR data to negotiate and buy the thing. Also I suggest doing further research on any car with zero ignitions as I was offered to have my ECU reset to 0 without trace, and there has also been threads on here about the subject though some specialist claims it can't be done (without trace).
To me it feels like Porsche's crude way of analyzing data to regulate warranty claims.
Edited by fredt on Tuesday 5th January 14:45
Ultimately this is a personal question about propensity to risk.
IMV, the mezger engines are really strong and can withstand the odd overrev. 391 ingnitions is not astronomical - someone can work out the total seconds spent above the limit, I expect it to be less than 1 second (assuming all ignitions happened at the same time).
If you intend to keep the car for medium term then they will evntually fall out of the 50 hour window....perhaps you can use it a lot within the 3 month warranty period?
From your description I would be minded to go for it....with a £10k buffer 'just in case'.
IMV, the mezger engines are really strong and can withstand the odd overrev. 391 ingnitions is not astronomical - someone can work out the total seconds spent above the limit, I expect it to be less than 1 second (assuming all ignitions happened at the same time).
If you intend to keep the car for medium term then they will evntually fall out of the 50 hour window....perhaps you can use it a lot within the 3 month warranty period?
From your description I would be minded to go for it....with a £10k buffer 'just in case'.
As others have mentioned these engines are incredibly robust, it's very easy for people to flippantly tell you to run for the hills from the comfort of their keyboard and search for another, but that's the problem isn't it,there's hardly any X50's on the market.
If the rest of the car checks out, and your gut say's to go with it just do as you've already said and get the engine thoroughly inspected.
There's more to these than just the rev range, and whose to say the next car that come's along with impeccable R1 & R2 maybe 10k more and could still need all the other bit's doing i.e suspension refresh, rads etc.
Just my thoughts, good luck with your seach
If the rest of the car checks out, and your gut say's to go with it just do as you've already said and get the engine thoroughly inspected.
There's more to these than just the rev range, and whose to say the next car that come's along with impeccable R1 & R2 maybe 10k more and could still need all the other bit's doing i.e suspension refresh, rads etc.
Just my thoughts, good luck with your seach
I have close to 260 996 turbos on our books. What I would say is that at least 75% of them has some RR2 activity similar to your example. Most of them have 65556 in RR1 after which it stops recording anyway.
The issue clearly is what you don't know whether the last occurrence was a money shot. The changes are it was not, just simply hitting the hard limiter - also remember that a lot of these have tunes on them and in many cases rev limits modified as well which affects the RR2 recordings.
A money shot would materialise within 50 hours for sure. A serious money shot would be obvious - a less serious one not so obviously - for example there is in the 996 turbo a large amount of valve clearance - a 5th to 2nd shift could bend a valve but not give damage other than the bent valve.
A compression test will not show valve damage - only a leak down will and actually on a 996 turbo unless the engine is on the floor it is very hard to get an accurate leak down test performed.
Imo the RR1 figure is actually low in comparison to my sample - that would tend to suggest positive to me.
However there are no guarantees.
Frankly I would be more concerned about an owner who boosts the car from cold all the time than RR.
One last point - check the warranty / it changed in October - you are automatically covered for 6 months provided the condition was preexisting.
Ken
The issue clearly is what you don't know whether the last occurrence was a money shot. The changes are it was not, just simply hitting the hard limiter - also remember that a lot of these have tunes on them and in many cases rev limits modified as well which affects the RR2 recordings.
A money shot would materialise within 50 hours for sure. A serious money shot would be obvious - a less serious one not so obviously - for example there is in the 996 turbo a large amount of valve clearance - a 5th to 2nd shift could bend a valve but not give damage other than the bent valve.
A compression test will not show valve damage - only a leak down will and actually on a 996 turbo unless the engine is on the floor it is very hard to get an accurate leak down test performed.
Imo the RR1 figure is actually low in comparison to my sample - that would tend to suggest positive to me.
However there are no guarantees.
Frankly I would be more concerned about an owner who boosts the car from cold all the time than RR.
One last point - check the warranty / it changed in October - you are automatically covered for 6 months provided the condition was preexisting.
Ken
arcticGT said:
Rev range data wouldn't worry me, if it sounds right and runs right it probably is right. I've driven an X50 std and modified and it's incredibly easy to bounce the limiter.
The average speed seems very low at 17mph tho, do you have a reading for the airbag operating hours ?
It def runs right and i agree it would be very easy to hit the limiter in the lower gears if you weren't used to it or the red mist came down.The average speed seems very low at 17mph tho, do you have a reading for the airbag operating hours ?
The ave speed does seem low although I put this down to mainly city/town driving. On the plus side this would suggest it hasn't been tracked much if at all. All the other paperwork, MOT's, service records etc match the mileage figures though.
Nineexcellence said:
I have close to 260 996 turbos on our books. What I would say is that at least 75% of them has some RR2 activity similar to your example. Most of them have 65556 in RR1 after which it stops recording anyway.
The issue clearly is what you don't know whether the last occurrence was a money shot. The changes are it was not, just simply hitting the hard limiter - also remember that a lot of these have tunes on them and in many cases rev limits modified as well which affects the RR2 recordings.
A money shot would materialise within 50 hours for sure. A serious money shot would be obvious - a less serious one not so obviously - for example there is in the 996 turbo a large amount of valve clearance - a 5th to 2nd shift could bend a valve but not give damage other than the bent valve.
A compression test will not show valve damage - only a leak down will and actually on a 996 turbo unless the engine is on the floor it is very hard to get an accurate leak down test performed.
Imo the RR1 figure is actually low in comparison to my sample - that would tend to suggest positive to me.
However there are no guarantees.
Frankly I would be more concerned about an owner who boosts the car from cold all the time than RR.
One last point - check the warranty / it changed in October - you are automatically covered for 6 months provided the condition was preexisting.
Ken
Many thanks for the advice Ken. The issue clearly is what you don't know whether the last occurrence was a money shot. The changes are it was not, just simply hitting the hard limiter - also remember that a lot of these have tunes on them and in many cases rev limits modified as well which affects the RR2 recordings.
A money shot would materialise within 50 hours for sure. A serious money shot would be obvious - a less serious one not so obviously - for example there is in the 996 turbo a large amount of valve clearance - a 5th to 2nd shift could bend a valve but not give damage other than the bent valve.
A compression test will not show valve damage - only a leak down will and actually on a 996 turbo unless the engine is on the floor it is very hard to get an accurate leak down test performed.
Imo the RR1 figure is actually low in comparison to my sample - that would tend to suggest positive to me.
However there are no guarantees.
Frankly I would be more concerned about an owner who boosts the car from cold all the time than RR.
One last point - check the warranty / it changed in October - you are automatically covered for 6 months provided the condition was preexisting.
Ken
I'd forgotten about the change in the 'warranty terms' due to the new Consumer Rights Act from 1 Oct. Perhaps I should buy it and put 50 to 100 additional hours on it asap and if it goes bang give it back to the dealer to fix !!
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