996 targa problems
Discussion
Demort said:
If you have to push it to help it close then its more than likely the cables / mechanism sticking .. the roof is slow in normal operation and people often lubricate the cables , it will make it quicker but only in the short term as dirt collects on the drive mechanism and makes it even worse.
Any noises are usually the cables starting to slip on the motors or possibly the plastic feet on the mechanism are breaking up .. unlikely though.
I think i said above about cable faults .. its not cheap im afraid , the roof cassette has to come out to replace the cables and its a 2 day job with approx £500 on parts.
There is no quick fix other than lubricateing the cables but that will only make it worse in the long run as more dirt collects and will totally stop the roof from working.
With Immark i gave him my number so we could chat on the phone .. easier to explain that way so if you want ill happily explain it on the phone .
No, no, no. That's the wrong answer! You're supposed to tell me a quick spurt of WD40 and everything will be OK!!!Demort. Any noises are usually the cables starting to slip on the motors or possibly the plastic feet on the mechanism are breaking up .. unlikely though.
I think i said above about cable faults .. its not cheap im afraid , the roof cassette has to come out to replace the cables and its a 2 day job with approx £500 on parts.
There is no quick fix other than lubricateing the cables but that will only make it worse in the long run as more dirt collects and will totally stop the roof from working.
With Immark i gave him my number so we could chat on the phone .. easier to explain that way so if you want ill happily explain it on the phone .
If it does need new cables anyway, is there any harm in trying to lube it up now? What would be the best sort to use and where/how would I apply it?
I also think I might do as suggested above, remove the motors and move the roof to and fro by hand, to see if that loosens the whole affair up a bit....
Thanks again for all your advice Demort, your knowledge on these matters is a rare thing indeed!
swindorski said:
No, no, no. That's the wrong answer! You're supposed to tell me a quick spurt of WD40 and everything will be OK!!!Demort.
If it does need new cables anyway, is there any harm in trying to lube it up now? What would be the best sort to use and where/how would I apply it?
I also think I might do as suggested above, remove the motors and move the roof to and fro by hand, to see if that loosens the whole affair up a bit....
Thanks again for all your advice Demort, your knowledge on these matters is a rare thing indeed!
So sorry its been so long to reply , computer problems im afraid ...If it does need new cables anyway, is there any harm in trying to lube it up now? What would be the best sort to use and where/how would I apply it?
I also think I might do as suggested above, remove the motors and move the roof to and fro by hand, to see if that loosens the whole affair up a bit....
Thanks again for all your advice Demort, your knowledge on these matters is a rare thing indeed!
If its jamming then as mentioned new cables are the most likely fault , the problem is the cables run through a steel tube and exit into a plastic tube , that takes the run off of the cable at full open and full closed , the probelm is a dirt build up in the plastic side on the cable that then jams against the smaller steel tube.
If you pull off the rear cover and look far left and far right you will see the plastic tubes and they often have black marks inside .. thats shows its a cable fault.
If your looking at new cables any way then lubricateing it may get it to work in the short term but will ultimatly make it worse in the long run.WD40 is fine and you are looking to spray it so it runs down the cables so its either roof open or disconnect the front side skirts to get to the channels.
If you want as i did before we can chat on the phone and ill try to explain better .. let me know
I have in the past tryed cleaning cables in situe with brake cleaner .. bit risky as its flamable ! but it again was only a short term fix.
If you remove both motors and move roof by hand you WILL unsync the cables and thats a bit tricky to set back up , if you do then you will have to push the roof all the way back as far as each side will go then reinstall the motors to try and rysync the cables .. not something ive ever done as really you need the cables disconnected from the glass to sync.
Edited by Demort on Sunday 13th March 15:54
cd1957 said:
Hi demot,I have targa with water leaking into rear of car,but its dripping from past the rear hatch lock on both sides.
I cant c anything because the rear hatch mechanism.
Any ideas
Chris
Do you mean the water leak is dripping behind the rear hatch or out of either side of the hatch lock ? a photo if possible as im not sure of where but its either going to be a frame seal that has seperated ( not so good ) or a possible blocked drain and water is running to its lowest point and into the car.It could also be the rear wiper shaft seal and again the water is running along then dripping down.I cant c anything because the rear hatch mechanism.
Any ideas
Chris
Check the hatch drains , lift hatch and look at each side corner just by the seal to see if blocked.
Rear panel off , someone with a hose on spray NOT jet pouring water over the rear and a good look to see where its comeing in , it may be x1 leak that seams to be more.
As above im happy to chat on the phone if needed .. let me know
Sent you an email , didnt realise who you were .. opps ..
Edited by Demort on Sunday 13th March 16:57
Hi Dermot, car appeared to be sorted, by replacing outer passenger roof moulding, as this was letting so much water into the drains,that they could not cope.
The drivers moulding has caused same leak on that side, It arrived yesterday, just need to book car in.
The water was coming out past the hatch lock/wiper motor assembly,about 4 inches, which is no where near any seals or drain tubes.
I am going to change the catch tank and outer moulding,and see how I get on.The car did have a complete roof cassette a
few years ago, so i am thinking the sealing tape between cassette and car roof, where it bolts to may have been damaged.
Chris
The drivers moulding has caused same leak on that side, It arrived yesterday, just need to book car in.
The water was coming out past the hatch lock/wiper motor assembly,about 4 inches, which is no where near any seals or drain tubes.
I am going to change the catch tank and outer moulding,and see how I get on.The car did have a complete roof cassette a
few years ago, so i am thinking the sealing tape between cassette and car roof, where it bolts to may have been damaged.
Chris
Hi Chris
it may be the roof seal , if so it normally drips off the x4 bolts at the very rear 2 of which are each side of the hatch lock so sounds to be in the right place.
Ive got a feeling that replaceing the outer strips might just be reduceing the amount of water thats reaching the frame seal and so stopping most of the leak.
But hey if it works it works
it would be worth puting an air gun down the frame drains while your there though .. the white topped drain left/right.
I sent you a mail with a contact number for me should you ever need it or i can be contacted through 911uk.com , same name .
Iain
it may be the roof seal , if so it normally drips off the x4 bolts at the very rear 2 of which are each side of the hatch lock so sounds to be in the right place.
Ive got a feeling that replaceing the outer strips might just be reduceing the amount of water thats reaching the frame seal and so stopping most of the leak.
But hey if it works it works
it would be worth puting an air gun down the frame drains while your there though .. the white topped drain left/right.
I sent you a mail with a contact number for me should you ever need it or i can be contacted through 911uk.com , same name .
Iain
Edited by Demort on Thursday 5th January 19:39
Just a quick update to say that I had the cables and seal done a couple of weeks ago at Northway and now all is well.
Opens smoothly and quietly and closes perfectly.
OPC "fears" of it needing new motors appear to have been unfounded.
Good to get it fixed - hopefully it will last another 10 years.
Many thanks to Demort for all the advice.
Sorry to hear about your leaky Targa.
Do you know for definite how the water is getting there? Sometimes it’s water dropping directly onto the seats but sometimes it’s water coming in around the back and then gravity taking it down the wheel arches into the rear seat area. Fairly ease to rule out the former by watching water ingress from inside (or put paper on top of the seat squabs).
If it is the former there are two things you need to check each side:
1. That the rubber gutter that runs along the back of the sliding glass roof has both its drainpipes tucked into the gap in the nylon trim
2. That the flexibile rubber tubes at either corner of the sliding glass roof (connected to the rubber trim all around it) are positioned correctly, ie not kinked or split and pointing down correctly into the rain channel behind the nylon. Also check there is a clear plastic pipe inside it; that this hasn’t shrunk, cracked or fallen out completely. To access this area all you have to do is GENTLY move forward the nylon trim above the front windows. It should move forward by around an inch without difficulty allowing you to see the tube in question.
If you google ‘996 Targa leak’ there are numerous threads, pictures and guidance. In particular pictures of how the drainage tube in point 2 should sit (pointing forwards the front of the car which is somewhat counter intuitive as the water has to drain out towards the rear!). If the piece of plastic pipe inside it needs replacing you can just cut a piece of plastic tube (c 1.5 cm) insert it and cable tie it.
Bear in mind that due to the quirky design it’s not 100% foolproof - it works on fine margins and if you get a lot of water coming in in a short space of time it can overwhelm the drainage system. Also bear in mind when leak testing rain water acts differently to tap water, and seems to cause leaks better :-/
Good luck with it! Pm me if you like and/or if you can’t cure it I’d recommend either Northway or Precision Porsche. They know their targas!
C (996 Targa owner)
Do you know for definite how the water is getting there? Sometimes it’s water dropping directly onto the seats but sometimes it’s water coming in around the back and then gravity taking it down the wheel arches into the rear seat area. Fairly ease to rule out the former by watching water ingress from inside (or put paper on top of the seat squabs).
If it is the former there are two things you need to check each side:
1. That the rubber gutter that runs along the back of the sliding glass roof has both its drainpipes tucked into the gap in the nylon trim
2. That the flexibile rubber tubes at either corner of the sliding glass roof (connected to the rubber trim all around it) are positioned correctly, ie not kinked or split and pointing down correctly into the rain channel behind the nylon. Also check there is a clear plastic pipe inside it; that this hasn’t shrunk, cracked or fallen out completely. To access this area all you have to do is GENTLY move forward the nylon trim above the front windows. It should move forward by around an inch without difficulty allowing you to see the tube in question.
If you google ‘996 Targa leak’ there are numerous threads, pictures and guidance. In particular pictures of how the drainage tube in point 2 should sit (pointing forwards the front of the car which is somewhat counter intuitive as the water has to drain out towards the rear!). If the piece of plastic pipe inside it needs replacing you can just cut a piece of plastic tube (c 1.5 cm) insert it and cable tie it.
Bear in mind that due to the quirky design it’s not 100% foolproof - it works on fine margins and if you get a lot of water coming in in a short space of time it can overwhelm the drainage system. Also bear in mind when leak testing rain water acts differently to tap water, and seems to cause leaks better :-/
Good luck with it! Pm me if you like and/or if you can’t cure it I’d recommend either Northway or Precision Porsche. They know their targas!
C (996 Targa owner)
Here’s a picture of how the tube in question should sit (this is a picture of the driver’s side tube)
If you need to pull back the rear curtain a little as well you can do, but it clips onto a stud - you need to pull the plastic part of the trim away from the stud to allow the nylon trim to move freely. The stud is at the bottom of the picture.
If you need to pull back the rear curtain a little as well you can do, but it clips onto a stud - you need to pull the plastic part of the trim away from the stud to allow the nylon trim to move freely. The stud is at the bottom of the picture.
Thanks. Both rear tubes seem to be in the right place. I opened the roof and the ‘seal ‘ between the rear screen and the roof when closed seems fairly knackered and wet. I’m wondering if the seal has gone here but still can’t see how the water gets on the back seat area. Doesn’t seem to drip. Trouble is finding the time to get to precision.
Thanks for the update.
If the drain hole and tubes above the B pillar look okay and you can’t see any water coming in from there (ie dripping down onto the rear seats from the roof) then it’s probably not to do with those and the water is likely coming in somewhere else.
It could be coming in the rear quarters (from blocked, split or badly seated drain tubes), through the rear, due to leaks around wiper spindle or boot lock (or a combination of all three). Less likely is through the rear quarter lights - due to faulty rubber seals - but possible.
If the rubber seal between the roof and rear screen (just a long strip of rubber isn’t it?) has gone then possibly water is getting into the car there. But instead of dripping downwards the water is travelling down the C pillars towards the sides and rear of the car.
A slow leak can accumulate over time with the foam soundproofing acting as a big sponge. By the time you notice it a lot of water will have already come in. When the sponge gets to saturation point the water then moves downwards, and the seat bases are the second lowest part of the inside (the lowest is the footwell of course). Do whatever you can to stop the water getting to the foot wells as an ECU and alarm unit is down there...
For diagnosis, you ideally need someone to pour rain water on the roof (from something like a watering can with a fine mist to replicate rain) while you sit inside the car and look for leaks. But, unless you get lucky, that might mean stripping out a lot of the carpet, soundproofing and gubbins under the rear screen...
Is Northway (near Reading) any easier for you to get to?
If the drain hole and tubes above the B pillar look okay and you can’t see any water coming in from there (ie dripping down onto the rear seats from the roof) then it’s probably not to do with those and the water is likely coming in somewhere else.
It could be coming in the rear quarters (from blocked, split or badly seated drain tubes), through the rear, due to leaks around wiper spindle or boot lock (or a combination of all three). Less likely is through the rear quarter lights - due to faulty rubber seals - but possible.
If the rubber seal between the roof and rear screen (just a long strip of rubber isn’t it?) has gone then possibly water is getting into the car there. But instead of dripping downwards the water is travelling down the C pillars towards the sides and rear of the car.
A slow leak can accumulate over time with the foam soundproofing acting as a big sponge. By the time you notice it a lot of water will have already come in. When the sponge gets to saturation point the water then moves downwards, and the seat bases are the second lowest part of the inside (the lowest is the footwell of course). Do whatever you can to stop the water getting to the foot wells as an ECU and alarm unit is down there...
For diagnosis, you ideally need someone to pour rain water on the roof (from something like a watering can with a fine mist to replicate rain) while you sit inside the car and look for leaks. But, unless you get lucky, that might mean stripping out a lot of the carpet, soundproofing and gubbins under the rear screen...
Is Northway (near Reading) any easier for you to get to?
Some info i posted about Targas here which might be of use ..
http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=116450
http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=116450
Demort said:
To be perfectly honest ive removed , stripped and rebuilt 15 targa roofs 996/997 and never needed to find the actual exits of the drains pipes , i just put an airline down them.
The drain is going to be in the rear section of the wheel arch from the pipe position and the other i think is in the boot aperture top left , so the bit the boot sits on .
Basically if you can blow down it with your mouth its going to be fine , ive never seen the pipes split before.
Your more likely to have a blockage in the plastic cover the channel drain goes onto , thats a bit harder to clear as removeing it is a bit of a mission and it HAS to be siliconed in the right places or it will leak. How about finding some tube to connect onto that cover and blowing up that or .. take car to a petrol station and use the tyre machine to blow out tubes and covers at the same time.
The front broken tube is a clever repair to be honest .. but .. i can see a problem , your going to hate me for this ! the tube when the roof is opened is pushed into a Z shape , its then squashed totally flat , trust me if you see it in operation your wouldn,t belive it could survive. Where im going with this is i think when you open and close the roof a few times it will just rip it off.Try it and let me know though please as any susccessfull repair is always usefull to know and ive had to replace many front seals for this problem and it would be nice to be able to offer a cheap solution if possible.
The metal wheels on the drive motors have a slight curve in the middle , that might be what you are seeing and its perfectly normal .. not worn at all .. and the motors are very rarely a problem .. its always cables and linkage jamming.
Ill describe how i set up the cables with the roof out and its upto you if you want to try it in situe but i would struggle doing this in the car......
I have the roof cassete removed and upside down on a ramp roof in closed position .... disconnect the front seal drain tubes by cutting the small cable ties each side and pull out of the retaining plastic bracket , remove the snall C shaped clip holding the blinds to the mechanism , gently pull the cover out to detatch it from the mechanism and slide the cover back on each side.Dont go all the way to the back as it will detach at the rear end if you go all the way.
remove both motors.
Undo the x4 allen key bolts holding the roof frame to the mechanism each side , (use the tools in the back cover) and pull each mechanism all the way back untill it stops .. it hits a small rivet close to the back of the roof frame and will stop at that point.
Reconnect motors and slowly move them forward to the front frame so you can reconnect the allen key bolts , i use the manuel way on the motors as roof is out and no power PLUS its slower and you can see if anything catches as it goes forward , mainly the frame seal tubes.
You will have the roof pushing down as not upside down as i do them so may need someone to push the glass up to get the mechaism under the frame and into the right position.
This will get the cables alighned to within a tooth which is fine , porsche issued a bullitin years ago basically getting the roof cables to be slightly out to stop rattles and this procedue works fine .. the porsche way is to make up wood blocks and measure various bits and is a pain .. this works fine.
If you really want to do this ( to be fair if your confident i dont see why not ) id rather you could mail me or ill be on the phone if needed .. so let me know if so and ill mail you my number.
as always this is advise and its upto you how you use it ( thats the legal bit lol )
I did think of just disconnecting the mechanism on the bad side and trying to pull it forward .. it might be worth a try but as with all of this it depends on how tight the cables are .. and there pretty dam tight on a roof with new cables.
i think thats covered it all .. just taken 15 mins to write this lot lol , good luck either way.
The drain is going to be in the rear section of the wheel arch from the pipe position and the other i think is in the boot aperture top left , so the bit the boot sits on .
Basically if you can blow down it with your mouth its going to be fine , ive never seen the pipes split before.
Your more likely to have a blockage in the plastic cover the channel drain goes onto , thats a bit harder to clear as removeing it is a bit of a mission and it HAS to be siliconed in the right places or it will leak. How about finding some tube to connect onto that cover and blowing up that or .. take car to a petrol station and use the tyre machine to blow out tubes and covers at the same time.
The front broken tube is a clever repair to be honest .. but .. i can see a problem , your going to hate me for this ! the tube when the roof is opened is pushed into a Z shape , its then squashed totally flat , trust me if you see it in operation your wouldn,t belive it could survive. Where im going with this is i think when you open and close the roof a few times it will just rip it off.Try it and let me know though please as any susccessfull repair is always usefull to know and ive had to replace many front seals for this problem and it would be nice to be able to offer a cheap solution if possible.
The metal wheels on the drive motors have a slight curve in the middle , that might be what you are seeing and its perfectly normal .. not worn at all .. and the motors are very rarely a problem .. its always cables and linkage jamming.
Ill describe how i set up the cables with the roof out and its upto you if you want to try it in situe but i would struggle doing this in the car......
I have the roof cassete removed and upside down on a ramp roof in closed position .... disconnect the front seal drain tubes by cutting the small cable ties each side and pull out of the retaining plastic bracket , remove the snall C shaped clip holding the blinds to the mechanism , gently pull the cover out to detatch it from the mechanism and slide the cover back on each side.Dont go all the way to the back as it will detach at the rear end if you go all the way.
remove both motors.
Undo the x4 allen key bolts holding the roof frame to the mechanism each side , (use the tools in the back cover) and pull each mechanism all the way back untill it stops .. it hits a small rivet close to the back of the roof frame and will stop at that point.
Reconnect motors and slowly move them forward to the front frame so you can reconnect the allen key bolts , i use the manuel way on the motors as roof is out and no power PLUS its slower and you can see if anything catches as it goes forward , mainly the frame seal tubes.
You will have the roof pushing down as not upside down as i do them so may need someone to push the glass up to get the mechaism under the frame and into the right position.
This will get the cables alighned to within a tooth which is fine , porsche issued a bullitin years ago basically getting the roof cables to be slightly out to stop rattles and this procedue works fine .. the porsche way is to make up wood blocks and measure various bits and is a pain .. this works fine.
If you really want to do this ( to be fair if your confident i dont see why not ) id rather you could mail me or ill be on the phone if needed .. so let me know if so and ill mail you my number.
as always this is advise and its upto you how you use it ( thats the legal bit
lol )I did think of just disconnecting the mechanism on the bad side and trying to pull it forward .. it might be worth a try but as with all of this it depends on how tight the cables are .. and there pretty dam tight on a roof with new cables.
i think thats covered it all .. just taken 15 mins to write this lot lol , good luck either way.
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