911R at Bonhams - sold for...

[xjay1337]

footsoldier said:

Or,in 2yrs, loads of people who bought cars at inflated prices have been completely blown out and lost lots of money as prices crash. Which is more likely..? Logically it's option 2...but logic hasn't got us this far!

Maybe...but when has any gt porsche lost money in the last 5 years.

[Mogul]

The VAT issues here are a nightmare (unless the new owner is resident in Sweden)!

Here is the lot listing...

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23596/lot/35/?cat...

It is stated that the car is/was registered in the EU (Sweden) to a private individual so we can assume that Swedish VAT was paid up front.

If the new owner intends to register the car in Sweden, there would be no further VAT to pay (in Sweden).

However, transfer and re-registration to any other another country would be subject to that country's importation legislation...

If a UK resident bought the car, the UK's NOVA scheme would apply and it seems pretty rigid since it was beefed up in 2013.

The car would surely qualify as a New Means of Transport ("NMT") given that it is less than 6 months old AND less than 6,000kms.

I used to be under the impression that the AND here was an OR and therefore, cars over 6 months old but with less than 6,000kms were not considered as 'new' but this does not appear to be the case anymore so no chance to delay the import by a few months to circumvent that issue.

One might 'hope' that even if the HMRC considered it to be NMT, they might be satisfied with charging UK VAT on the €160k original ex-VAT MSRP so a UK resident owner might get his dog to eat the Bonhams contract and ask to be taxed on that basis (and not his €483k purchase price) but not sure that it would be realistic.

Putting the car into storage in Sweden until it is at least 6 months old (and getting fido to eat the Bonhams contract again) might help but not if the destination country has this 6 months AND min. 6,000kms limit. Perhaps the the recorded milage will need to be 'adjusted' to >6,000kms for import purposes and then back down to 52 thereafter?

My suggestion to the new owner would be to rent a flat in Stockholm and then register the car at that address! After 6 months (or 12), it might be possible to return to their home country and take the car with them as a personal possession with no VAT liability...

[ChrisW.]

pete.g said:

Thankfully I don't keep company with people who would spend £600k on a car to keep as a collector's item and regard it as an investment vehicle (sorry!) - what is the point in keeping a car at delivery miles?

But in my view it's not really that special ....

It's a brand new "limited numbers" parts bin' concoction ....

It may be a nice concoction, but its a bit of this and a bit of that in an attempt to cheese-pare established market segments ...

Anybody remember when the rumour was that it was also going to have narrow tyres to help it slide a lot ??

Surely this must be a bubble ...

[pete.g]

ChrisW. said:

pete.g said:

Thankfully I don't keep company with people who would spend £600k on a car to keep as a collector's item and regard it as an investment vehicle (sorry!) - what is the point in keeping a car at delivery miles?

But in my view it's not really that special ....

It's a brand new "limited numbers" parts bin' concoction ....

It may be a nice concoction, but its a bit of this and a bit of that in an attempt to cheese-pare established market segments ...

Anybody remember when the rumour was that it was also going to have narrow tbyres to help it slide a lot ??

Surely this must be a bubble ...
'

That's not the point I'm making - I'll probably never see one on the road because they're all in air conditioned garages being used as conversation pieces and to avoid capital gains tax.

Rarity/perceived specialness aren't the issue to me - it's a 500hp rwd manual 911 - that'll do well enough for me.

[pete.g]

ChrisW. said:

pete.g said:

Thankfully I don't keep company with people who would spend £600k on a car to keep as a collector's item and regard it as an investment vehicle (sorry!) - what is the point in keeping a car at delivery miles?

But in my view it's not really that special ....

It's a brand new "limited numbers" parts bin' concoction ....

It may be a nice concoction, but its a bit of this and a bit of that in an attempt to cheese-pare established market segments ...

Anybody remember when the rumour was that it was also going to have narrow tbyres to help it slide a lot ??

Surely this must be a bubble ...
'

That's not the point I'm making - I'll probably never see one on the road because they're all in air conditioned garages being used as conversation pieces and to avoid capital gains tax.

Rarity/perceived specialness aren't the issue to me - it's a 500hp rwd manual 911 - that'll do well enough for me.

[xjay1337]

I wonder how much it would cost to build a 911R.

I reckon it could be done for under £200k including the starter car!

Buy a crashed 991.2 GT3/RS for the engine.
Mate it to a manual gearbox (not hard).
Fit some upgraded suspension / GT3 front end.

There you go.

[LaSource]

xjay1337 said:

I wonder how much it would cost to build a 911R.

I reckon it could be done for under £200k including the starter car!

Buy a crashed 991.2 GT3/RS for the engine.
Mate it to a manual gearbox (not hard).
Fit some upgraded suspension / GT3 front end.

There you go.

You are right. But then I guess it will be worth under £200k too for its inherent engineering capabilities.
Whilst an original chassis will be worth over twice as much (or whatever) for being one of the 991 original museum pieces.
My point being the value of the car once it is in collectable territory is not related to its engineering capabilities. It could just be considered to be a painted car upon a painted tarmac.

[footsoldier]

xjay1337 said:

I wonder how much it would cost to build a 911R.

I reckon it could be done for under £200k including the starter car!

Buy a crashed 991.2 GT3/RS for the engine.
Mate it to a manual gearbox (not hard).
Fit some upgraded suspension / GT3 front end.

There you go.

Porsche is doing it for £140k...

[WCZ]

another car where if you're lucky enough to get a slot and not extremely rich you'd be insane to drive it at all

that kind of profit is just too much to resist

[hondansx]

xjay1337 said:

I wonder how much it would cost to build a 911R.

I reckon it could be done for under £200k including the starter car!

Buy a crashed 991.2 GT3/RS for the engine.
Mate it to a manual gearbox (not hard).
Fit some upgraded suspension / GT3 front end.

There you go.

Or just buy a 997 GT3?

There's this odd contradiction in the Porsche community that older is better (purer, more involving, whatever), yet they will pay well over the odds for the latest model.

[NoPaddleShiftForMe]

pete.g said:

ChrisW. said:

pete.g said:

Thankfully I don't keep company with people who would spend £600k on a car to keep as a collector's item and regard it as an investment vehicle (sorry!) - what is the point in keeping a car at delivery miles?

But in my view it's not really that special ....

It's a brand new "limited numbers" parts bin' concoction ....

It may be a nice concoction, but its a bit of this and a bit of that in an attempt to cheese-pare established market segments ...

Anybody remember when the rumour was that it was also going to have narrow tbyres to help it slide a lot ??

Surely this must be a bubble ...
'

That's not the point I'm making - I'll probably never see one on the road because they're all in air conditioned garages being used as conversation pieces and to avoid capital gains tax.

Rarity/perceived specialness aren't the issue to me - it's a 500hp rwd manual 911 - that'll do well enough for me.

Here is one that was collected yesterday and is out for a hoon today with some friends. I can only assume ChrisW hasn't driven one because I can assure you, the 911R is very special.

[Cheib]

I wonder what kind of buying history you need to get on the list ? I suspect buying new cars two or three times a year for a few years would get you close to it. And they'd have to be 991 Turbo's and the like rather than a base Carrera. Still if you've had an RS, GT4, and an R in the last two years that's a very conservative £200k....that covers a lot of depreciation on your 'normal' cars!

[AnthonyR]

Cheib said:

I wonder what kind of buying history you need to get on the list ? I suspect buying new cars two or three times a year for a few years would get you close to it. And they'd have to be 991 Turbo's and the like rather than a base Carrera. Still if you've had an RS, GT4, and an R in the last two years that's a very conservative £200k....that covers a lot of depreciation on your 'normal' cars!

Interesting question.

I have a friend with a 911R and although he is a serial Porsche buyer, he is not at the exulted level some might expect.

I would guess that he has bought 2 Boxsters, 3-4 normal 911, a least 1 Cayenne and a couple of GT cars, all from the same main dealer which I guess really helps.

[ChrisW.]

NoPaddleShiftForMe said:

Here is one that was collected yesterday and is out for a hoon today with some friends. I can only assume ChrisW hasn't driven one because I can assure you, the 911R is very special.

I doubt if hardly anybody has driven one.

That wasn't my point either

But the auction price is still bonkers !

[supermono]

I was chatting with a couple of salesmen at OPCs, one I've used for the past 10 years without fail -- every service, every job, on my GT2, no expense spared.

He flat refused even to take a deposit for a GT3RS because I'm the wrong sort of customer.

That's fine -- but when they bleat about avoiding speculators they can't then turn around and refuse someone who quite obviously buys the car to use and to enjoy not to rake in a quick turnaround.

My problem is I'm not arriving with an open wallet every time a new 911 comes out.

[v8ksn]

supermono said:

I was chatting with a couple of salesmen at OPCs, one I've used for the past 10 years without fail -- every service, every job, on my GT2, no expense spared.

He flat refused even to take a deposit for a GT3RS because I'm the wrong sort of customer.

That's fine -- but when they bleat about avoiding speculators they can't then turn around and refuse someone who quite obviously buys the car to use and to enjoy not to rake in a quick turnaround.

My problem is I'm not arriving with an open wallet every time a new 911 comes out.

Thats bonkers!

How can they expect to build a relationship with the owners if they are even refusing to accept deposits from long term faithful customers!?

[footsoldier]

They don't take deposits from anyone...its LOIs until they announce the car and confirm allocation

[Porsche911R]

footsoldier said:

They don't take deposits from anyone...its LOIs until they announce the car and confirm allocation

most don't take loi now, other wise they would have 1000's for every future GT3 In the next 10 years

[Twinfan]

supermono said:

I was chatting with a couple of salesmen at OPCs, one I've used for the past 10 years without fail -- every service, every job, on my GT2, no expense spared.

He flat refused even to take a deposit for a GT3RS because I'm the wrong sort of customer.

That's fine -- but when they bleat about avoiding speculators they can't then turn around and refuse someone who quite obviously buys the car to use and to enjoy not to rake in a quick turnaround.

My problem is I'm not arriving with an open wallet every time a new 911 comes out.

You haven't bought enough new cars, that'll be the problem. Owning one and having it maintained isn't anywhere near enough by the sound of things. You need to be a serial new car buyer like the example above.

[GT3cs]

Twinfan said:

You haven't bought enough new cars, that'll be the problem. Owning one and having it maintained isn't anywhere near enough by the sound of things. You need to be a serial new car buyer like the example above.

I've had 9 in last 3 years out of them - 5 x Macans , Gt4 ,Gt3 (991), GTS Targa, Cayman R . ( And sold both GT cars back to them at well under market value )

Along with a 997 and 996 GT3 , another Cayman R and 981 Spyder which I bought elsewhere but serviced and maintained with them over the last 7 or 8 years.

Also personally introduced 2 new customers who have spent around £200k between them .

And I still got nowhere near a RS never-mind an R . Its a tough game but cant deny I'm enjoying trying :-)