How important is outright performance?
Discussion
Hello,
I was heading home on the motorway in my 996 Turbo and there was a C63 AMG behind me. I gave the car the beans. Annoyingly the baby Merc was right on my tail and I wasn't pulling away. It was a little deflating. However the flip side is that I sit lower to the ground, I have a manual gearbox, better steering feel and AWD traction etc.
I was just wandering how everyone else feels about our Super Cars not being very Super fast anymore. We spend a lot of money on our Porsche's and now small salon cars are just as fast. The new E Class AMG and BMW M5 will have 600BHP. A new Panamera Turbo will leave me for DEAD!
I was heading home on the motorway in my 996 Turbo and there was a C63 AMG behind me. I gave the car the beans. Annoyingly the baby Merc was right on my tail and I wasn't pulling away. It was a little deflating. However the flip side is that I sit lower to the ground, I have a manual gearbox, better steering feel and AWD traction etc.
I was just wandering how everyone else feels about our Super Cars not being very Super fast anymore. We spend a lot of money on our Porsche's and now small salon cars are just as fast. The new E Class AMG and BMW M5 will have 600BHP. A new Panamera Turbo will leave me for DEAD!
Its very subjective I think.
My GT3RS can be humiliated in a straight line by a four door Tesla, and of course my older cars are in no way competitive with much more modest modern cars. I have long given up the idea that I can have competitive cars in the numbers game, and in any case the limiting factor is my own skill rather than a set of stats.
Buy that car that gives you the most person fun, ( and we are all different,) and don't worry about the latest/greatest.
My GT3RS can be humiliated in a straight line by a four door Tesla, and of course my older cars are in no way competitive with much more modest modern cars. I have long given up the idea that I can have competitive cars in the numbers game, and in any case the limiting factor is my own skill rather than a set of stats.
Buy that car that gives you the most person fun, ( and we are all different,) and don't worry about the latest/greatest.
Who cares about being the fastest, especially on the road.
Performance is one piece of an infinitely larger puzzle.
Guess it depends why you bought the turbo. To smoke anyone on the street? Long-term it'll never maintain this position.
Because it's a Porsche 911, the most iconic car ever made? That'll never change.
Performance is one piece of an infinitely larger puzzle.
Guess it depends why you bought the turbo. To smoke anyone on the street? Long-term it'll never maintain this position.
Because it's a Porsche 911, the most iconic car ever made? That'll never change.
n12maser said:
Who cares about being the fastest, especially on the road.
Performance is one piece of an infinitely larger puzzle.
Guess it depends why you bought the turbo. To smoke anyone on the street? Long-term it'll never maintain this position.
Because it's a Porsche 911, the most iconic car ever made? That'll never change.
Straight Line Performance is not important to me. I have owned 280BHP NSX Manual and loved it. I have owned 118BHP Elise and loved it and I love my Rolls Royce 220BHP 3 Speed Automatic. I was just curious what others think. Performance is one piece of an infinitely larger puzzle.
Guess it depends why you bought the turbo. To smoke anyone on the street? Long-term it'll never maintain this position.
Because it's a Porsche 911, the most iconic car ever made? That'll never change.
I bought my 911 because I have always wanted one. I wanted a Manual car with the more reliable Mezger Engine .The fact the engine was in the Le Mans winning GT1 in a nice bit of heritage. I bought the Turbo because it is better suited to the roads that I drive on in Scotland and not massive like a 991
RDMcG said:
Its very subjective I think.
My GT3RS can be humiliated in a straight line by a four door Tesla, .
as would every single car on the road inc most million £ cars , they are stomach wrenching fast 2.3 seconds to 60 mph and it does turn the insides unlike any Engine car I have been in that inc 918 and RUF CTR3 and have been lucky enough to go >200mph in.My GT3RS can be humiliated in a straight line by a four door Tesla, .
Try one it's outstanding, and while a dull car over all, the off the line Ludicrous Mode will stay with you for a long time.
One day all cars will be 5 seconds to 100mph and it will be mental.
Jumpingjackflash said:
I was heading home on the motorway in my 996 Turbo and there was a C63 AMG behind me.
I've got a 996 turbo - you could always, easily get yours re-mapped if outright grunt is a worry. Mine was done by Wayne, more to replace a crappy map, but it's about 500bhp and very driveable.My neighbour has a C63 AMG. They do sound great - it's like a chapter of the Hell's Angels is drawing up his driveway when he arrives home.
The thing is, the Merc, like many contemporary M series BMWs now, will struggle with its weight as soon as it gets a sniff of a proper track. At DN16, an M5 suffered complete engine shutdown because the gearbox got too hot and an M4 was having brake overheating issues. Make of that what you will.
n12maser said:
Who cares about being the fastest, especially on the road.
Performance is one piece of an infinitely larger puzzle.
Guess it depends why you bought the turbo. To smoke anyone on the street? Long-term it'll never maintain this position.
Because it's a Porsche 911, the most iconic car ever made? That'll never change.
Having the performance on the road is next to useless here in UK but send a Porsche turbo to any proper tuner and you will be smoking Ferrari 488, Maccas, NSX, GTR, Aventador, Huracan, F12 and the list goes on. Friend was in an F12 TDF last weekend and he thinks my 9e turbo pulls harder than it! I was amazed and the trap results at VMAX verified what he was saying about my banger being quicker than a TDF. You can run anywhere from 550bhp, 600bhp, 650bhp, 680bhp on stock engine and above that rods and head studs (simplistically speaking as a lot of work goes into a forged engine build with Porsche motorsport parts) and we are talking 750bhp, 850bhp all the way up to 1500bhp +. Saw a 996 turbo with built engine and gearbox at 9e a few weeks ago. Should be good for well in excess of 230 mph. I actually know its theoretical top speed but am not allowed to say at this stage... this 996 turbos currently in Germany being dialled in on the autobahn. Not even a new Macca 720 S will be able to live with it even with a big head start over say a 1.5 mile run. For heavy cars turbos handle reasonably well too. Can't think of one car other than a FF that could replace it and I bet they're very expensive to run.Performance is one piece of an infinitely larger puzzle.
Guess it depends why you bought the turbo. To smoke anyone on the street? Long-term it'll never maintain this position.
Because it's a Porsche 911, the most iconic car ever made? That'll never change.
IMI A said:
For heavy cars turbos handle reasonably well too.
Given the added stuff; turbos and intercoolers (both x2) and also the 4WD system, it's surprising how little difference there is between the turbo and the GT3. Throwing out the very heavy, electric seats in favour of buckets goes a fair way to redressing that too.Digga said:
IMI A said:
For heavy cars turbos handle reasonably well too.
Given the added stuff; turbos and intercoolers (both x2) and also the 4WD system, it's surprising how little difference there is between the turbo and the GT3. Throwing out the very heavy, electric seats in favour of buckets goes a fair way to redressing that too.
On the OP question, straight line is of little importance to me and less so as I grow old and crusty. I came out of two 997 turbos into a GTS as straightline pace was just getting me into trouble and I more enjoy the corners and feel of the car than just pace. I love the 63 mercs not for pace but sound but they are a different groove to your 996. The rate of development at the moment means any 10 year old supercar is going to get smoked by the latest MPV so you have to let the straightline speed thing go eventually and think who is having the most fun in the corners and through feedback and involvement in the process of driving. As others have said, your 996 could give you the best of all world as you can keep the drivability and tweak it to 600+bhp for a relatively modest outlay if it matters to you that much. Personally I would leave well alone and enjoy the ride!
I've had more cars than I can remember and totally agree the most fun can be had from lower HP cars with a more analog delivery!
It is defiantly the twisties that count in my opinion where it's not all about out and out BHP.
I recently bought this bonkers build and rare EVO6RS and have to say I have never had more fun driving than in this thing!
Just 450hp circa 1200kgs, the only thing anything will see on the twisties is the rear end dissaper no matter what the horse power!
Long live the older less powerful analog light cars
GT3 still on order but for now this is my current fun!
Clean as well
It is defiantly the twisties that count in my opinion where it's not all about out and out BHP.
I recently bought this bonkers build and rare EVO6RS and have to say I have never had more fun driving than in this thing!
Just 450hp circa 1200kgs, the only thing anything will see on the twisties is the rear end dissaper no matter what the horse power!
Long live the older less powerful analog light cars
GT3 still on order but for now this is my current fun!
Clean as well
It is all about how it makes you feel. The visceral experience is all that matters. Not all about outright performance.
Weekend before last I was out with a mate in his 2012 M5 performance edition. They apparently make near on 700 not the 560 quoted. 1.4 bar of boost on a twin turbo 4.4 V8 I can believe it. Bloody quick bit of kit and handled exceptionally well. Left 300 yards of 11's outside my house when he left. Immediately searched classifieds, found two for sale, then sat back and thought about it.
Nope. The Hellcat is more brutal and ferocious. The wail of the supercharger and deep bass of the V8 (not the winy flat plain crank of the AMG63) is completely addictive and the joy is not having to travel at warp speed to savour the delights. It would not live with the M5 PE through the twisties or low speed traction either.
Last weekend I was out in the 73S. First proper trip out with the missus. Nice bit of dual carriageway. Nailing it through second off a roundabout, 7200rpm through second, third, fourth then up into fifth. The mfi sounds glorious. A smile as wide as ever on both our faces yet maybe touching 1.1 into fifth. Feels light as a feather and so beautifully analogue.
Came home and then took the V for a spin. Never took it over 4000rpm. Too much traffic but the emotional reaction and the fully connected feel is second to none.
I had the great pleasure of meeting IMIA at a terminal velocity day last year. We watched some tuned 997 turbo's run some very impressive speeds. I believe over 200 in a standing half mile for one of them. Awesome numbers but the car itself leaves me cold.
It has taken me a long time to realise what I want from my cars. Overall outright performance is not the be all and end all. It is when you get in, turn the key or punch the button. If it makes you smile job done
Weekend before last I was out with a mate in his 2012 M5 performance edition. They apparently make near on 700 not the 560 quoted. 1.4 bar of boost on a twin turbo 4.4 V8 I can believe it. Bloody quick bit of kit and handled exceptionally well. Left 300 yards of 11's outside my house when he left. Immediately searched classifieds, found two for sale, then sat back and thought about it.
Nope. The Hellcat is more brutal and ferocious. The wail of the supercharger and deep bass of the V8 (not the winy flat plain crank of the AMG63) is completely addictive and the joy is not having to travel at warp speed to savour the delights. It would not live with the M5 PE through the twisties or low speed traction either.
Last weekend I was out in the 73S. First proper trip out with the missus. Nice bit of dual carriageway. Nailing it through second off a roundabout, 7200rpm through second, third, fourth then up into fifth. The mfi sounds glorious. A smile as wide as ever on both our faces yet maybe touching 1.1 into fifth. Feels light as a feather and so beautifully analogue.
Came home and then took the V for a spin. Never took it over 4000rpm. Too much traffic but the emotional reaction and the fully connected feel is second to none.
I had the great pleasure of meeting IMIA at a terminal velocity day last year. We watched some tuned 997 turbo's run some very impressive speeds. I believe over 200 in a standing half mile for one of them. Awesome numbers but the car itself leaves me cold.
It has taken me a long time to realise what I want from my cars. Overall outright performance is not the be all and end all. It is when you get in, turn the key or punch the button. If it makes you smile job done
Edited by SRT Hellcat on Wednesday 5th April 07:41
FWIW and how it sounds, I'm pretty sure the latest AMG V8s are not flat plane cranks. I know some of the new BMW M units may be, but do not believe the Mercs are.
I think NA cars are key. I do love my 996 turbo and the power delivery is intoxicating, plus I love the subtle styling and engine links to the legendary GT1 and 959, but once on track, the throttle control through corners is much less adjustable, because of the effects of the turbos.
I think NA cars are key. I do love my 996 turbo and the power delivery is intoxicating, plus I love the subtle styling and engine links to the legendary GT1 and 959, but once on track, the throttle control through corners is much less adjustable, because of the effects of the turbos.
SRT Hellcat said:
I had the great pleasure of meeting IMIA at a terminal velocity day last year. We watched some tuned 997 turbo's run some very impressive speeds. I believe over 200 in a standing half mile for one of them. Awesome numbers but the car itself leaves me cold.
Hi Gra, that 997 turbo owned by a friend of mine and its mad. Runs well over 220mph by the 1/2 mile! Undrivable on road though as sequential box with straight cut gears. Quite frightening to drive. Its in Bahrain at the mo but if you do perhaps pop down to TV at the end of this month I can arrange a p ride if you'd like. Trust me it will not leave you cold. Its as mad as a box of frogs.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjTPwxGr1LQ
That why it is much more fun to go (relatively) fast in a slow car than slowly in a fast car. On today's congested roads and with law enforcement putting you in jail for (even minor) traffic offences the era of the 500hp+ car is truly over. Going at the legal speed limit on the motor you will still be taken over by a grandma in her Fiesta - so what is the point ?
Old / Vintage cars are having a resurrection because it takes the joy back into motoring and you are not at the receiving end of the envy of other motorist and the general public despite the fact that old cars are much more valuable than most recent supercars.
Old / Vintage cars are having a resurrection because it takes the joy back into motoring and you are not at the receiving end of the envy of other motorist and the general public despite the fact that old cars are much more valuable than most recent supercars.
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