How important is outright performance?
Discussion
Happy to agree the CGT is not an LMP car for the road, nor even close. In fairness I doubt the original statement was meant to be taken too literally.
The inboard suspension is bolted directly to the carbon tub. The engine is in a carbon cradle. You sit in a lightweight leather covered carbon shell seat with minimal padding which is on low rails bolted to the carbon tub. There is a vestigial thin carpet covering only part of the footwell. The rest of the tub around and behind you is exposed. Limited concession to NVH in that configuration. Stationary there is a lot of noise. On the move at slow speed there is even more noise and chatter. There is a load of tyre noise. You need quite a lot of rpm before the engine note overcomes the background and by then you may be going very quickly.
The floor hinged pedals are fine for heel and toe, the braking easy to modulate. The steering is very direct and feelsome. The view forward excellent but plenty of blind spots to the rear. Turning left from stationary at an up hill T junction gets your attention.
So definitely not an LMP car but not too many comparables either.
Life affirming. It surely is.
The inboard suspension is bolted directly to the carbon tub. The engine is in a carbon cradle. You sit in a lightweight leather covered carbon shell seat with minimal padding which is on low rails bolted to the carbon tub. There is a vestigial thin carpet covering only part of the footwell. The rest of the tub around and behind you is exposed. Limited concession to NVH in that configuration. Stationary there is a lot of noise. On the move at slow speed there is even more noise and chatter. There is a load of tyre noise. You need quite a lot of rpm before the engine note overcomes the background and by then you may be going very quickly.
The floor hinged pedals are fine for heel and toe, the braking easy to modulate. The steering is very direct and feelsome. The view forward excellent but plenty of blind spots to the rear. Turning left from stationary at an up hill T junction gets your attention.
So definitely not an LMP car but not too many comparables either.
Life affirming. It surely is.
lowndes said:
Happy to agree the CGT is not an LMP car for the road, nor even close. In fairness I doubt the original statement was meant to be taken too literally.
The inboard suspension is bolted directly to the carbon tub. The engine is in a carbon cradle. You sit in a lightweight leather covered carbon shell seat with minimal padding which is on low rails bolted to the carbon tub. There is a vestigial thin carpet covering only part of the footwell. The rest of the tub around and behind you is exposed. Limited concession to NVH in that configuration. Stationary there is a lot of noise. On the move at slow speed there is even more noise and chatter. There is a load of tyre noise. You need quite a lot of rpm before the engine note overcomes the background and by then you may be going very quickly.
The floor hinged pedals are fine for heel and toe, the braking easy to modulate. The steering is very direct and feelsome. The view forward excellent but plenty of blind spots to the rear. Turning left from stationary at an up hill T junction gets your attention.
So definitely not an LMP car but not too many comparables either.
Life affirming. It surely is.
Agreed. LMP analogy was a little OTT. I never fully appreciated the CGT until relatively recently. You can look at one for an age and find little details you had not noticed before. Very engaging The inboard suspension is bolted directly to the carbon tub. The engine is in a carbon cradle. You sit in a lightweight leather covered carbon shell seat with minimal padding which is on low rails bolted to the carbon tub. There is a vestigial thin carpet covering only part of the footwell. The rest of the tub around and behind you is exposed. Limited concession to NVH in that configuration. Stationary there is a lot of noise. On the move at slow speed there is even more noise and chatter. There is a load of tyre noise. You need quite a lot of rpm before the engine note overcomes the background and by then you may be going very quickly.
The floor hinged pedals are fine for heel and toe, the braking easy to modulate. The steering is very direct and feelsome. The view forward excellent but plenty of blind spots to the rear. Turning left from stationary at an up hill T junction gets your attention.
So definitely not an LMP car but not too many comparables either.
Life affirming. It surely is.
SRT Hellcat said:
It is all about how it makes you feel. The visceral experience is all that matters. Not all about outright performance.
Weekend before last I was out with a mate in his 2012 M5 performance edition. They apparently make near on 700 not the 560 quoted. 1.4 bar of boost on a twin turbo 4.4 V8 I can believe it. Bloody quick bit of kit and handled exceptionally well. Left 300 yards of 11's outside my house when he left. Immediately searched classifieds, found two for sale, then sat back and thought about it.
Nope. The Hellcat is more brutal and ferocious. The wail of the supercharger and deep bass of the V8 (not the winy flat plain crank of the AMG63) is completely addictive and the joy is not having to travel at warp speed to savour the delights. It would not live with the M5 PE through the twisties or low speed traction either.
Last weekend I was out in the 73S. First proper trip out with the missus. Nice bit of dual carriageway. Nailing it through second off a roundabout, 7200rpm through second, third, fourth then up into fifth. The mfi sounds glorious. A smile as wide as ever on both our faces yet maybe touching 1.1 into fifth. Feels light as a feather and so beautifully analogue.
Came home and then took the V for a spin. Never took it over 4000rpm. Too much traffic but the emotional reaction and the fully connected feel is second to none.
I had the great pleasure of meeting IMIA at a terminal velocity day last year. We watched some tuned 997 turbo's run some very impressive speeds. I believe over 200 in a standing half mile for one of them. Awesome numbers but the car itself leaves me cold.
It has taken me a long time to realise what I want from my cars. Overall outright performance is not the be all and end all. It is when you get in, turn the key or punch the button. If it makes you smile job done
You'll love this Weekend before last I was out with a mate in his 2012 M5 performance edition. They apparently make near on 700 not the 560 quoted. 1.4 bar of boost on a twin turbo 4.4 V8 I can believe it. Bloody quick bit of kit and handled exceptionally well. Left 300 yards of 11's outside my house when he left. Immediately searched classifieds, found two for sale, then sat back and thought about it.
Nope. The Hellcat is more brutal and ferocious. The wail of the supercharger and deep bass of the V8 (not the winy flat plain crank of the AMG63) is completely addictive and the joy is not having to travel at warp speed to savour the delights. It would not live with the M5 PE through the twisties or low speed traction either.
Last weekend I was out in the 73S. First proper trip out with the missus. Nice bit of dual carriageway. Nailing it through second off a roundabout, 7200rpm through second, third, fourth then up into fifth. The mfi sounds glorious. A smile as wide as ever on both our faces yet maybe touching 1.1 into fifth. Feels light as a feather and so beautifully analogue.
Came home and then took the V for a spin. Never took it over 4000rpm. Too much traffic but the emotional reaction and the fully connected feel is second to none.
I had the great pleasure of meeting IMIA at a terminal velocity day last year. We watched some tuned 997 turbo's run some very impressive speeds. I believe over 200 in a standing half mile for one of them. Awesome numbers but the car itself leaves me cold.
It has taken me a long time to realise what I want from my cars. Overall outright performance is not the be all and end all. It is when you get in, turn the key or punch the button. If it makes you smile job done
Edited by SRT Hellcat on Wednesday 5th April 07:41
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2018-dodge-chall...
I have to say in answer to answer the question: once you've had a comfortable road car that does 1/4 mile in sub 11 seconds, stops incredibly and handles too, then it is difficult - if not too boring - to go back to less. imo.
you don't have to use it often, but the smile it gives for those few seconds of roller coaster like experience, track day fun, followed by civilised pootling is one you want to have when you want it and never gets old.
you don't have to use it often, but the smile it gives for those few seconds of roller coaster like experience, track day fun, followed by civilised pootling is one you want to have when you want it and never gets old.
lowndes said:
Happy to agree the CGT is not an LMP car for the road, nor even close. In fairness I doubt the original statement was meant to be taken too literally.
The inboard suspension is bolted directly to the carbon tub. The engine is in a carbon cradle. You sit in a lightweight leather covered carbon shell seat with minimal padding which is on low rails bolted to the carbon tub. There is a vestigial thin carpet covering only part of the footwell. The rest of the tub around and behind you is exposed. Limited concession to NVH in that configuration. Stationary there is a lot of noise. On the move at slow speed there is even more noise and chatter. There is a load of tyre noise. You need quite a lot of rpm before the engine note overcomes the background and by then you may be going very quickly.
The floor hinged pedals are fine for heel and toe, the braking easy to modulate. The steering is very direct and feelsome. The view forward excellent but plenty of blind spots to the rear. Turning left from stationary at an up hill T junction gets your attention.
So definitely not an LMP car but not too many comparables either.
Life affirming. It surely is.
Not a great deal to add other than it sounds utterly superb! The inboard suspension is bolted directly to the carbon tub. The engine is in a carbon cradle. You sit in a lightweight leather covered carbon shell seat with minimal padding which is on low rails bolted to the carbon tub. There is a vestigial thin carpet covering only part of the footwell. The rest of the tub around and behind you is exposed. Limited concession to NVH in that configuration. Stationary there is a lot of noise. On the move at slow speed there is even more noise and chatter. There is a load of tyre noise. You need quite a lot of rpm before the engine note overcomes the background and by then you may be going very quickly.
The floor hinged pedals are fine for heel and toe, the braking easy to modulate. The steering is very direct and feelsome. The view forward excellent but plenty of blind spots to the rear. Turning left from stationary at an up hill T junction gets your attention.
So definitely not an LMP car but not too many comparables either.
Life affirming. It surely is.
IMI A said:
Yes I have been waiting along with many on the HC forum for all the info. Quite an awesome piece of kit,and I think you will quite like this. Old and New
Jumpingjackflash said:
Hello,
I was heading home on the motorway in my 996 Turbo and there was a C63 AMG behind me. I gave the car the beans. Annoyingly the baby Merc was right on my tail and I wasn't pulling away. It was a little deflating. However the flip side is that I sit lower to the ground, I have a manual gearbox, better steering feel and AWD traction etc.
I was just wandering how everyone else feels about our Super Cars not being very Super fast anymore. We spend a lot of money on our Porsche's and now small salon cars are just as fast. The new E Class AMG and BMW M5 will have 600BHP. A new Panamera Turbo will leave me for DEAD!
It works both ways though, I recently raced a BMW i8 and a new Audi RS6, in both cases I kept on having to back off for fear of going into their boot.I was heading home on the motorway in my 996 Turbo and there was a C63 AMG behind me. I gave the car the beans. Annoyingly the baby Merc was right on my tail and I wasn't pulling away. It was a little deflating. However the flip side is that I sit lower to the ground, I have a manual gearbox, better steering feel and AWD traction etc.
I was just wandering how everyone else feels about our Super Cars not being very Super fast anymore. We spend a lot of money on our Porsche's and now small salon cars are just as fast. The new E Class AMG and BMW M5 will have 600BHP. A new Panamera Turbo will leave me for DEAD!
You could argue that if you were the driver of either car you would be disappointed that you could not out drag a poor mans Porsche (981) costing half as much.
Before anyone says either driver wasn't trying, who wellies it out of a service station onto an empty destricted autobahn up to 150 without using full throttle.
OldBob said:
I have to say in answer to answer the question: once you've had a comfortable road car that does 1/4 mile in sub 11 seconds, stops incredibly and handles too, then it is difficult - if not too boring - to go back to less. imo.
you don't have to use it often, but the smile it gives for those few seconds of roller coaster like experience, track day fun, followed by civilised pootling is one you want to have when you want it and never gets old.
I think it gets old within about 3 months, and hence why the GTR boys just keep going for power after power mods.you don't have to use it often, but the smile it gives for those few seconds of roller coaster like experience, track day fun, followed by civilised pootling is one you want to have when you want it and never gets old.
once you get used to the speed it's very normal even on a 200bhp bike
OldBob said:
I have to say in answer to answer the question: once you've had a comfortable road car that does 1/4 mile in sub 11 seconds, stops incredibly and handles too, then it is difficult - if not too boring - to go back to less. imo.
you don't have to use it often, but the smile it gives for those few seconds of roller coaster like experience, track day fun, followed by civilised pootling is one you want to have when you want it and never gets old.
This you don't have to use it often, but the smile it gives for those few seconds of roller coaster like experience, track day fun, followed by civilised pootling is one you want to have when you want it and never gets old.
A few more idle observations. If you drive a 996tt on the road with the boost gauge showing then, in the vast majority of road and traffic situations, you are using little to no boost whatsoever. Not even a lunatic can get much boost for long on roads. It's no wonder there are so many cars getting stuck or seized boost valves.
I think the grunt of the 996 turbo helps me on track days. I'm not a crap driver but, I would guess - even armed with the scalpel-sharp chassis of a GT3 - I'd struggle to muster either the skill or bravery to run much higher corner speeds. That being the case, the sheer power on the straights helps to minimise the number of times I have to yield to better pilots (which I am always ready and prepared to do), especially somewhere like the Ring. In the right environment, fully unleashing the twin-turbo Mezger engine is always awe inspiring.
Power delivery is also a thing; the nature of an engine, besides the mere power and torque numbers, can determine the excitement, and something NA can often give a more visceral and intense experience.
I think the grunt of the 996 turbo helps me on track days. I'm not a crap driver but, I would guess - even armed with the scalpel-sharp chassis of a GT3 - I'd struggle to muster either the skill or bravery to run much higher corner speeds. That being the case, the sheer power on the straights helps to minimise the number of times I have to yield to better pilots (which I am always ready and prepared to do), especially somewhere like the Ring. In the right environment, fully unleashing the twin-turbo Mezger engine is always awe inspiring.
Power delivery is also a thing; the nature of an engine, besides the mere power and torque numbers, can determine the excitement, and something NA can often give a more visceral and intense experience.
Shazbat said:
A well setup caterham with about 250bhp will leave the evo for dead in about 3 corners. It can stop, change direction and get into an apex far far quicker, not to mention a higher bhp/ton so faster up to about 120/130.
On a dry track, yes. On the road, unless the surface is bone dry, the road is perfectly-surfaced and the landscape completely flat, you might be surprised. I can press on much harder on the road in my Impreza than my Evora (both cars are identical power to weight) simply because in the Subaru I can see much further ahead - in the Lotus I am lifting or even braking for blind crests which in the Subaru I’d be taking comfortably with power. A Caterham is even lower still.The gap becomes even greater in less-than-perfect weather conditions or a poor road surface, which let's face it describes 80% of driving situations in the UK. I love the idea of Caterhams but IMO their usability window is too small for me to actually take the plunge and own one.
Porsche911R said:
OldBob said:
I have to say in answer to answer the question: once you've had a comfortable road car that does 1/4 mile in sub 11 seconds, stops incredibly and handles too, then it is difficult - if not too boring - to go back to less. imo.
you don't have to use it often, but the smile it gives for those few seconds of roller coaster like experience, track day fun, followed by civilised pootling is one you want to have when you want it and never gets old.
I think it gets old within about 3 months, and hence why the GTR boys just keep going for power after power mods.you don't have to use it often, but the smile it gives for those few seconds of roller coaster like experience, track day fun, followed by civilised pootling is one you want to have when you want it and never gets old.
once you get used to the speed it's very normal even on a 200bhp bike
I went through that journey to an extent too - ending up somewhere in the spec I used in the original comment.
I spent some time talking my chosen tuner - he was very pragmatic and not at all pushy sales wise. When I said that I was considering something different - like a 997 GT3, he said I'd be disappointed in it's power/performance and would miss the straight line bursts being available on tap. I sold up and had a period without the GTR - driving normal and some well tuned other pork (not a GT3) - also playing with my lads mk7 golf R. - he was right I missed buzz. Many "GTR boys" went back to GTR's after some hiatus as a result. I opted for TT S - I am back to the buzz when I need it.
OldBob said:
Funny enough I was a GTR boy - lol
I went through that journey to an extent too - ending up somewhere in the spec I used in the original comment.
I spent some time talking my chosen tuner - he was very pragmatic and not at all pushy sales wise. When I said that I was considering something different - like a 997 GT3, he said I'd be disappointed in it's power/performance and would miss the straight line bursts being available on tap. I sold up and had a period without the GTR - driving normal and some well tuned other pork (not a GT3) - also playing with my lads mk7 golf R. - he was right I missed buzz. Many "GTR boys" went back to GTR's after some hiatus as a result. I opted for TT S - I am back to the buzz when I need it.
I 'll take your son Cayman R every time, shame he sold it.I went through that journey to an extent too - ending up somewhere in the spec I used in the original comment.
I spent some time talking my chosen tuner - he was very pragmatic and not at all pushy sales wise. When I said that I was considering something different - like a 997 GT3, he said I'd be disappointed in it's power/performance and would miss the straight line bursts being available on tap. I sold up and had a period without the GTR - driving normal and some well tuned other pork (not a GT3) - also playing with my lads mk7 golf R. - he was right I missed buzz. Many "GTR boys" went back to GTR's after some hiatus as a result. I opted for TT S - I am back to the buzz when I need it.
One does need a fast car now and again I find, but the enjoyment is always short lived I find.
Porsche911R said:
OldBob said:
Funny enough I was a GTR boy - lol
I went through that journey to an extent too - ending up somewhere in the spec I used in the original comment.
I spent some time talking my chosen tuner - he was very pragmatic and not at all pushy sales wise. When I said that I was considering something different - like a 997 GT3, he said I'd be disappointed in it's power/performance and would miss the straight line bursts being available on tap. I sold up and had a period without the GTR - driving normal and some well tuned other pork (not a GT3) - also playing with my lads mk7 golf R. - he was right I missed buzz. Many "GTR boys" went back to GTR's after some hiatus as a result. I opted for TT S - I am back to the buzz when I need it.
I 'll take your son Cayman R every time, shame he sold it.I went through that journey to an extent too - ending up somewhere in the spec I used in the original comment.
I spent some time talking my chosen tuner - he was very pragmatic and not at all pushy sales wise. When I said that I was considering something different - like a 997 GT3, he said I'd be disappointed in it's power/performance and would miss the straight line bursts being available on tap. I sold up and had a period without the GTR - driving normal and some well tuned other pork (not a GT3) - also playing with my lads mk7 golf R. - he was right I missed buzz. Many "GTR boys" went back to GTR's after some hiatus as a result. I opted for TT S - I am back to the buzz when I need it.
One does need a fast car now and again I find, but the enjoyment is always short lived I find.
plenty said:
Shazbat said:
A well setup caterham with about 250bhp will leave the evo for dead in about 3 corners. It can stop, change direction and get into an apex far far quicker, not to mention a higher bhp/ton so faster up to about 120/130.
On a dry track, yes. On the road, unless the surface is bone dry, the road is perfectly-surfaced and the landscape completely flat, you might be surprised. I can press on much harder on the road in my Impreza than my Evora (both cars are identical power to weight) simply because in the Subaru I can see much further ahead - in the Lotus I am lifting or even braking for blind crests which in the Subaru I’d be taking comfortably with power. A Caterham is even lower still.The gap becomes even greater in less-than-perfect weather conditions or a poor road surface, which let's face it describes 80% of driving situations in the UK. I love the idea of Caterhams but IMO their usability window is too small for me to actually take the plunge and own one.
Caterham usability window is very narrow compared to a regular sports car (not much fun in the cold and drizzle!), but when you do get out, they're magic, the perfect road car so long as it's not an extreme version like the 620
Shazbat said:
IMI A said:
Having the performance on the road is next to useless here in UK but send a Porsche turbo to any proper tuner and you will be smoking Ferrari 488, Maccas, NSX, GTR, Aventador, Huracan, F12 and the list goes on. Friend was in an F12 TDF last weekend and he thinks my 9e turbo pulls harder than it! .
TDF is a piece of automotive aristocracy, probably one of the most exciting, most coveted machines of the past 2 decades. Mentioning some crappy max powered blown 911 in the same paragraph is just insulting.I wouldn't want your Scuderia to come against something like a Golf GTI CS on track- I think you may well feel insulted - doh you never take it on track do you?
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