The 997 Appreciation Thread
Discussion
STiG911 said:
Gregmitchell said:
Hippea said:
wow full rebuild required at 18k miles, makes you realise how bad these engines are. Plus this is £10k over priced
Very easy to cause damage to any engine when it's not treated properly.
I believe that a Hartech rebuilt engine should be able to withstand any form of inconsiderate or unsympathetic usage. Otherwise what's the point. Therefore in my mind this just makes it into the car it should have been. And why I would never consider owning one of these without.
ATM said:
How anyone can see an 18k mile car needing a full engine rebuild and assume it was the fault of the owners mistreating it is beyond me. We like the Porsche brand because we believe they are well engineered. If we believe an inconsiderate owner can trash an engine in 18k miles that's hardly well engineered. Clearly these engines were not up to standard.
I believe that a Hartech rebuilt engine should be able to withstand any form of inconsiderate or unsympathetic usage. Otherwise what's the point. Therefore in my mind this just makes it into the car it should have been. And why I would never consider owning one of these without.
That’s right, Porsche hasn’t got a clue how to build a high performance engine that lasts years and years of abuse. The same Porsche that have built LeMans winning engines, F1 engines, endurance engines. The same company that has built millions of engines that are still top notch 20 plus years after being built. Does Hartech have that kind of pedigree? I believe that a Hartech rebuilt engine should be able to withstand any form of inconsiderate or unsympathetic usage. Otherwise what's the point. Therefore in my mind this just makes it into the car it should have been. And why I would never consider owning one of these without.
I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
maz8062 said:
That’s right, Porsche hasn’t got a clue how to build a high performance engine that lasts years and years of abuse. The same Porsche that have built LeMans winning engines, F1 engines, endurance engines. The same company that has built millions of engines that are still top notch 20 plus years after being built. Does Hartech have that kind of pedigree?
I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
I think the 996/997 generation had a lot of budget constraints and research costs moving to the water cooled engines. We all know porsche can produce well engineered machinery, its just the bean counters that hold purse strings that leave us with basic steel parts that rust ie exhaust clamps etc which for the price of the car you would think they could go stainless.I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
To me that is why the we have the issues with the 996/997 engines.
sja360 said:
I think the 996/997 generation had a lot of budget constraints and research costs moving to the water cooled engines. We all know porsche can produce well engineered machinery, its just the bean counters that hold purse strings that leave us with basic steel parts that rust ie exhaust clamps etc which for the price of the car you would think they could go stainless.
To me that is why the we have the issues with the 996/997 engines.
Quite right. It baffles me how people cant understand the difference between a race car and a road car. A LM GTE Engine likely costs around €150k and ended up being a 4.2L engine mounted in the middle in the RSR. IIRC 95% of the body parts on the RSR were different too. Race engineers dont typically work on road cars / understand the requirements very well. Race engines are designed without the same constraints levels of road car engines (Cost, useability, longevity, service ease etc). Arguably building a road car engine that operates from -20 to +50 with all types of terrain, QA issues, driving styles is a lot harder than making a bespoke engine. Even the likes of Cosworth & JUDD would struggle in making a road car engine that is affordable & reliable despite being some of the best engine builders in the worldTo me that is why the we have the issues with the 996/997 engines.
maz8062 said:
...If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
I'm not challenging your point (even if I don't entirely agree with it), but just a note that Hartech DO (or did) in fact race their engines and with some success. Obviously in small leages, but in proportion to their resources, I feel.maz8062 said:
That’s right, Porsche hasn’t got a clue how to build a high performance engine that lasts years and years of abuse. The same Porsche that have built LeMans winning engines, F1 engines, endurance engines. The same company that has built millions of engines that are still top notch 20 plus years after being built. Does Hartech have that kind of pedigree?
I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
Would you say the well known M96 and M97 engine issues are broadly in line with reliability of other car manufacturers? Do you know many people who have had to pay for full rebuilds of their non-Porsche engines at relatively low miles? Do you know of many other engines apart from maybe the RX8 / JLR 2.0D Ingeniums with such a poor reputation? I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
jakesmith said:
maz8062 said:
That’s right, Porsche hasn’t got a clue how to build a high performance engine that lasts years and years of abuse. The same Porsche that have built LeMans winning engines, F1 engines, endurance engines. The same company that has built millions of engines that are still top notch 20 plus years after being built. Does Hartech have that kind of pedigree?
I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
Would you say the well known M96 and M97 engine issues are broadly in line with reliability of other car manufacturers? Do you know many people who have had to pay for full rebuilds of their non-Porsche engines at relatively low miles? Do you know of many other engines apart from maybe the RX8 / JLR 2.0D Ingeniums with such a poor reputation? I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
jakesmith said:
maz8062 said:
That’s right, Porsche hasn’t got a clue how to build a high performance engine that lasts years and years of abuse. The same Porsche that have built LeMans winning engines, F1 engines, endurance engines. The same company that has built millions of engines that are still top notch 20 plus years after being built. Does Hartech have that kind of pedigree?
I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
Would you say the well known M96 and M97 engine issues are broadly in line with reliability of other car manufacturers? Do you know many people who have had to pay for full rebuilds of their non-Porsche engines at relatively low miles? Do you know of many other engines apart from maybe the RX8 / JLR 2.0D Ingeniums with such a poor reputation? I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
My MY07 .1 is 17 years old and has 135k on the clock - original engine, gearbox, clutch, shocks. It still pulls like a train and probably still retains everyone of its claimed 325bhp. It’s still a great car. If it needs a rebuild tomorrow I wouldn’t blame Porsche engine or “future proofing” it with a X company rebuild with different ideas. The car is old and the rest of the body is likely to give up before the engine once rebuilt.
These cars are now at an affordable level for mere mortals but as is the way with these things, up keep will still be Sky high. We take the risk buying them because we too want to experience these cars. In period if they went wrong the owners could afford to fix them or paid £0000,s for extended warranties. We don’t have to do that but the car can still throw a ruinous bill and thank god for the likes of Hartech and others that can repair them a lot cheaper than Porsche. Are they better than Porsche? Not in my view, no.
I think when you take into account how many of these engines have been sold and most of them reach 100k and more specially the earlier 996's they arn't that bad bad considering the stick they get, so it cost's around 10k to rebuild one maybe more maybe less but it's the same with the aircooled some have to rebuilt around same miles. Most other cars are cubed by now, once rebuilt with the issues sorted by the likes of hartect these cars will go until wrapped up no doubt.
maz8062 said:
My MY07 .1 is 17 years old and has 135k on the clock - original engine, gearbox, clutch, shocks. It still pulls like a train and probably still retains everyone of its claimed 325bhp. It’s still a great car. If it needs a rebuild tomorrow I wouldn’t blame Porsche engine or “future proofing” it with a X company rebuild with different ideas.
I don't get it. You are being wilfully blind to the very well known fundamental design weaknesses of the engine in your car. Porsche addressed most or all of them with the updated engines in the 997.2.If you went to Porsche to rebuild your engine, it will have the same design weaknesses. If you take it to Hartech, you basically never have to worry about the engine for the rest of the life of the car. The idea that this degrades the value of the car is nuts.
braddo said:
maz8062 said:
My MY07 .1 is 17 years old and has 135k on the clock - original engine, gearbox, clutch, shocks. It still pulls like a train and probably still retains everyone of its claimed 325bhp. It’s still a great car. If it needs a rebuild tomorrow I wouldn’t blame Porsche engine or “future proofing” it with a X company rebuild with different ideas.
I don't get it. You are being wilfully blind to the very well known fundamental design weaknesses of the engine in your car. Porsche addressed most or all of them with the updated engines in the 997.2.If you went to Porsche to rebuild your engine, it will have the same design weaknesses. If you take it to Hartech, you basically never have to worry about the engine for the rest of the life of the car. The idea that this degrades the value of the car is nuts.
maz8062 said:
braddo said:
maz8062 said:
My MY07 .1 is 17 years old and has 135k on the clock - original engine, gearbox, clutch, shocks. It still pulls like a train and probably still retains everyone of its claimed 325bhp. It’s still a great car. If it needs a rebuild tomorrow I wouldn’t blame Porsche engine or “future proofing” it with a X company rebuild with different ideas.
I don't get it. You are being wilfully blind to the very well known fundamental design weaknesses of the engine in your car. Porsche addressed most or all of them with the updated engines in the 997.2.If you went to Porsche to rebuild your engine, it will have the same design weaknesses. If you take it to Hartech, you basically never have to worry about the engine for the rest of the life of the car. The idea that this degrades the value of the car is nuts.
PRO 5T said:
Hartech invoice says "Supply and fit", I wondered if it was either done as preventative maintenance which meant it was cheaper (as no damage had occurred) or if the owner removed the engine and stripped it down for Hartech thus removing a lot of the labour charges?
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2006-porsche-911-997-carrera-s-20Reading the comments on the face of what the seller says it looks to be the above. This could be an awesome buy for someone if it stacks up.
maz8062 said:
That’s right, Porsche hasn’t got a clue how to build a high performance engine that lasts years and years of abuse. The same Porsche that have built LeMans winning engines, F1 engines, endurance engines. The same company that has built millions of engines that are still top notch 20 plus years after being built. Does Hartech have that kind of pedigree?
I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
Hartech do. And successfully. But, surprisingly, they don’t have quite the same race budget as Porsche.I read so much nonsense on t’internet about small engineering shops righting the wrongs, poor design even, of Porsche. Rubbish. If these companies were so good why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and go racing; proper racing, and let’s see how far they get.
As for engines. I have been lucky enough to had many 911s - and done lots of miles in them - but only 2 have required engine work. Both 997s.
First needed complete new engine due to bore score at 1 year old and 7500 miles (just after I bought it used so can’t vouch for how first owner treated it). Second at 65000 miles. I went Hartech 4.1 with this one. Great cars, poor engine design.
I would not buy a used one unless it had been rebuilt by Hartech. I suspect it’s not a matter of if so much as when with bore score and a clear scope at purchase only suggests you should be OK for at least 10k miles.
How lucky do you feel?
Thought i'd add some positivity here and post about the PCCM+ upgrade I did on my Turbo last week. Aside from the scandalous lack of instructions from Porsche, it was a decent DIY job that took me under 2 hours and is really all just plug an play.
It's strange for something unrelated to the physical driving experience to give such a feelgood factor (and maybe I'm a weirdo), but it really has lifted the appeal of the entire car for me. Shame it's not wireless Carplay, but the way Porsche has integrated the unit with car is really nice, from the trip computer data to the nav instructions showing on the driver information screen.
It's strange for something unrelated to the physical driving experience to give such a feelgood factor (and maybe I'm a weirdo), but it really has lifted the appeal of the entire car for me. Shame it's not wireless Carplay, but the way Porsche has integrated the unit with car is really nice, from the trip computer data to the nav instructions showing on the driver information screen.
Jefferson Steelflex said:
Thought i'd add some positivity here and post about the PCCM+ upgrade I did on my Turbo last week. Aside from the scandalous lack of instructions from Porsche, it was a decent DIY job that took me under 2 hours and is really all just plug an play.
It's strange for something unrelated to the physical driving experience to give such a feelgood factor (and maybe I'm a weirdo), but it really has lifted the appeal of the entire car for me. Shame it's not wireless Carplay, but the way Porsche has integrated the unit with car is really nice, from the trip computer data to the nav instructions showing on the driver information screen.
Good job. I am looking forward to the 997.2 version being avaliableIt's strange for something unrelated to the physical driving experience to give such a feelgood factor (and maybe I'm a weirdo), but it really has lifted the appeal of the entire car for me. Shame it's not wireless Carplay, but the way Porsche has integrated the unit with car is really nice, from the trip computer data to the nav instructions showing on the driver information screen.
RiccardoG said:
Wow, only 2 hours to fit as a DIY job? When I saw some videos of this last year it seemed like a massive undertaking to me! Are you relatively experienced in this kind of stuff?
Asking as I have the PCCM+ on my radar. Gave it a miss last year but thiking again about it for 2024...
I'm ok at some DIY tasks but it was relatively straightforward. You only need to remove the old PCM unit (removing the two side panels and then turning the 4 allen bolts to free it up) and then both A pillar trims to replace the FM boosters. I just followed online guides, the A pillars are a PITA to reattach but nothing on these cars is overly difficult, it's all clips and screws.Asking as I have the PCCM+ on my radar. Gave it a miss last year but thiking again about it for 2024...
The PCCM unit is plug and play, and Porsche kindly made it so each of the connectors is uniquely shaped so they only attach one way. I then followed YouTube videos on the various pieces of assembly of the PCCM (it come is a few pieces you have to assemble with a screwdriver).
The only thing to consider is if you have Bose with the MOST Fibre Optics as there are a couple of extra bits to do (remove DVD/CD Changer in the frunk and a bypass by the pedals) but Friend's Green Porsche did a great video on it.
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