997 gt3 or gt4
Discussion
To be fair, The engine in the GT4 was never meant to compete with the GT3 engine. It feels like a decent road engine and a quits itself well enough on the race track but where you need it in the higher rev ranges it is understandably lacking. Road engines that are cammed to deliver at the high end of their working rev range go bang very quickly. A race engine is designed to work in this range continually. On the road, it's nice sometimes to rev up to the line in the lower gears but opportunities are sadly few and far between.
What really disappointed me with the GT4 was the rear end stability on downhill sections and a general vaiguness at 10/10ths. In a GT3 you can enter Eu Rouge flat, small settle on the brakes in the compression and flat on exit as you climb. In the GT4 the same approach has me sideways up the hill which was not much fun. The car needs settling on the brakes before the compression which for a mid engined configuration was very dissapointing. Mid engined configurations are never easy at 10/10ths but the GT4 was vaigue and it was generally difficult to get 'in front' of the car which led to a reactive driving style. If I were tuning a GT4 this is the first olace I'd be spending my money.
What really disappointed me with the GT4 was the rear end stability on downhill sections and a general vaiguness at 10/10ths. In a GT3 you can enter Eu Rouge flat, small settle on the brakes in the compression and flat on exit as you climb. In the GT4 the same approach has me sideways up the hill which was not much fun. The car needs settling on the brakes before the compression which for a mid engined configuration was very dissapointing. Mid engined configurations are never easy at 10/10ths but the GT4 was vaigue and it was generally difficult to get 'in front' of the car which led to a reactive driving style. If I were tuning a GT4 this is the first olace I'd be spending my money.
Yep. There is s big difference. Every time an engine gets tracked the wear and street rate increases dramatically over the road environment. Honda make very good engines but the units that run in race cars will be very different units. Why use a sledge hammer to crack a wallnut. It doesn't make commercial sence for most manufacturers. Race units are very expenseve to build. A replacement Metz cup unit is the thick end of £40k. Of course it will need rebuilding eventually but the interval will be a lot longer by comparison. Even then, the rebuild is generally to retain power rather than prevent failure. It's certainly the best race unit that I've ever driven and that included the DFV and DFR units. It's probably the most successful race unit of the modern era. Fair play to Porsche for putting that unit in a road car. I think that the quality and significance of the Metzger unit are still not appreciated
Steve Rance said:
I think that the quality and significance of the Metzger unit are still not appreciated
Seems to have been some work on the DFI behind the scenes though. Word is the Carrera Cup engines on the .2 cars will get service intervals extended to 100hrs. In a way, that in itself shows how good the old Mezger unit was.Steve Rance said:
Yep. There is s big difference. Every time an engine gets tracked the wear and street rate increases dramatically over the road environment. Honda make very good engines but the units that run in race cars will be very different units. Why use a sledge hammer to crack a wallnut. It doesn't make commercial sence for most manufacturers. Race units are very expenseve to build. A replacement Metz cup unit is the thick end of £40k. Of course it will need rebuilding eventually but the interval will be a lot longer by comparison. Even then, the rebuild is generally to retain power rather than prevent failure. It's certainly the best race unit that I've ever driven and that included the DFV and DFR units. It's probably the most successful race unit of the modern era. Fair play to Porsche for putting that unit in a road car. I think that the quality and significance of the Metzger unit are still not appreciated
I've seen plenty in bits Steve, and they're Swiss watch like in both their design and complexity. Little wonder Stuttgart couldn't wait to phase them out, they're neither cheap, easy or quick to build.I concur, they're all but bomb-proof when operated at high revs consistently. Failures are rare, wear moreso, but even when worn, they keep going with but a small drop in performance and efficiency. A truly incredible engine that's still not truly appreciated by many.
Personally I think the GT4 power delivery has been blown out of proportion.
996.1 GT3 make max power at 7,200, and the 996.2 at 7,400 (exactly the same as the GT4). I therefore wouldn't exactly refer to the GT4 power delivery as a diesel without including the 996 GT3 in this statement.
Yes a little bit extra top end of the GT4 would be nice (like the 997 GT3), but a moot point anyway when the majority of these cars are garage queens
996.1 GT3 make max power at 7,200, and the 996.2 at 7,400 (exactly the same as the GT4). I therefore wouldn't exactly refer to the GT4 power delivery as a diesel without including the 996 GT3 in this statement.
Yes a little bit extra top end of the GT4 would be nice (like the 997 GT3), but a moot point anyway when the majority of these cars are garage queens
It's perfect common sence from porsche. Set the cam profile to give a decent spread of power and don't encourage the driver to red line the engine to extract its power. In order to sustain constant high revs you need a very strong bottom end which is expensive to build. In racing engines it's essential to have a bottom end capable of sustained use at high revs because if you are looking to extract power, that's where you will find it. Thus racing engines are always much more expensive to build than road engines. Theoretically you could change the cam profile of the Metzger engine to extract less power and more torque lower down the rev range but that would be madness as the engine would be rediculously over engineered and under perform to its potential.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Oh I totally agree, but to be quite frank, I cba writing chapter and verse about the schematics of the engines. The point I wanted to make was there are some massive exaggerations in this thread, often by people that have had little time in these cars.Im actually all for high revving n/a engines, and recently purchased a '94 Peugeot 106 1.3 Rallye, with a massive 100bhp at 7,200 coupled to a ridiculously close ratio box for exactly that reason. Unfortunately most modern cars are dull for the reasons stated earlier regarding power delivery, but the GT4 is most definitely not one of them.
An observation, FWIW. I went from a 964RS into the GT4, I don't think anybody would doubt the motorsport credentials of the '64RS, but I find the GT4 motor is a more exciting to use. The top end zing over 5.5k revs is certainly a differentiator, and it sounds better too.
I've driven a few Mezger engined cars, and while I while I would certainly be in the queue for a GT4 with the 991GT3 engine for the extra specialness (if that's a word) it would add, I think the GT4 at it's price point is a pretty special thing.
I think the OP would have a fine time in either of his choices, and would get slightly different things from each. I doubt he would lose much money on either (provide no major crash in the economy of course), but the 997 I would guess is a safer bet.
David
I've driven a few Mezger engined cars, and while I while I would certainly be in the queue for a GT4 with the 991GT3 engine for the extra specialness (if that's a word) it would add, I think the GT4 at it's price point is a pretty special thing.
I think the OP would have a fine time in either of his choices, and would get slightly different things from each. I doubt he would lose much money on either (provide no major crash in the economy of course), but the 997 I would guess is a safer bet.
David
I don't think anyone here is saying that the GT4 isn't a special thing to drive. Maybe the next one will have the motorsport powerplant the chassis deserves. Hell, I'm still tempted!!
Right now tho' OP I think I'd struggle to keep my £85k from nailing down this gorgeous cobalt blue 997.1 clubbie at JZM............
https://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Po...
Right now tho' OP I think I'd struggle to keep my £85k from nailing down this gorgeous cobalt blue 997.1 clubbie at JZM............
https://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Po...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I do not think that is quite right. I think only one very highly used (over 100k miles with 80k track miles) car has had a rebuild. In fact it is the other way round, given the number of track miles there are hardly any mezgers (or at least in 996 guise) at indy garages awaiting rebuilds.LaSource said:
I think the 996 GT3 is the best car Porsche have made, they are just so so good.
I use mine mainly on the road these days and with the right geo it’s beautiful.
I do not think that is quite right. I think only one very highly used (over 100k miles with 80k track miles) car has had a rebuild. In fact it is the other way round, given the number of track miles there are hardly any mezgers (or at least in 996 guise) at indy garages awaiting rebuilds.
I use mine mainly on the road these days and with the right geo it’s beautiful.
I do not think that is quite right. I think only one very highly used (over 100k miles with 80k track miles) car has had a rebuild. In fact it is the other way round, given the number of track miles there are hardly any mezgers (or at least in 996 guise) at indy garages awaiting rebuilds.
kevs 172 said:
LaSource said:
I think the 996 GT3 is the best car Porsche have made, they are just so so good.
I use mine mainly on the road these days and with the right geo it’s beautiful.
I do not think that is quite right. I think only one very highly used (over 100k miles with 80k track miles) car has had a rebuild. In fact it is the other way round, given the number of track miles there are hardly any mezgers (or at least in 996 guise) at indy garages awaiting rebuilds.
I use mine mainly on the road these days and with the right geo it’s beautiful.
I do not think that is quite right. I think only one very highly used (over 100k miles with 80k track miles) car has had a rebuild. In fact it is the other way round, given the number of track miles there are hardly any mezgers (or at least in 996 guise) at indy garages awaiting rebuilds.
I didn’t mean to alter your quote!
Cheers
kevs 172 said:
LaSource said:
I think the 996 GT3 is the best car Porsche have made, they are just so so good.
I use mine mainly on the road these days and with the right geo it’s beautiful.
I do not think that is quite right. I think only one very highly used (over 100k miles with 80k track miles) car has had a rebuild. In fact it is the other way round, given the number of track miles there are hardly any mezgers (or at least in 996 guise) at indy garages awaiting rebuilds.
I use mine mainly on the road these days and with the right geo it’s beautiful.
I do not think that is quite right. I think only one very highly used (over 100k miles with 80k track miles) car has had a rebuild. In fact it is the other way round, given the number of track miles there are hardly any mezgers (or at least in 996 guise) at indy garages awaiting rebuilds.
I didn’t mean to alter your quote!
Cheers
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