997 gt3 or gt4

[lowndes]

I have never driven a GT4 so can’t contribute to the comparative aspects of this debate, however, there have been some comments earlier in the thread about GT3 which run counter to my own experience.

Porsche911R said:

“look people don't track GT3's any more”.

This is demonstrably not the case. It was pretty wet at Castle Combe on Thursday but there were GT2, GT3, GT4 and RS and an R amongst the other cars out on track.

Porsche911R said:

“So why are people buying a GT3 when we all know they really don't make that good a road car.”

I have done 7k miles this year in a 997.2 GT3 CS and found it to be a very nice road car indeed. Plenty of space for luggage for a 10 day trip and Cup2 is such a good tyre these days that the car remains very driveable in poor weather.

Porsche911R said:

“Very few enthusiasts are ending up in these cars and for me any one with a stock geo is NOT really interested in the car really,”

I have a 997.2 GT3, 991.2 GT3 and CGT. All are on factory settings. If I got to the point where I felt the car was underperforming I would get some more instruction.

Porsche911R said:

“I def don't get the 50% of people buying PDK GT3's or 70% specing PCCB's in the UK, again it's all pub talk and look at me buyers.”

My half day at PEC on Monday convinced me that I had done the right thing by specifying PDK for the 991.2GT3 though it has to be said that that was without the benefit of trying the manual version. Nevertheless, I have some experience of other 6 speed manual boxes and thought PDK was deeply impressive and in my view complements some of the other electronically controlled systems such as RWS and eDiff. Few people in the Eight Bells would have the slightest idea what PCCB are so if that were the motive it would be an expensive and nugatory gesture.

[RSVP911]

lowndes said:

I have never driven a GT4 so can’t contribute to the comparative aspects of this debate, however, there have been some comments earlier in the thread about GT3 which run counter to my own experience.

Porsche911R said:

“look people don't track GT3's any more”.

This is demonstrably not the case. It was pretty wet at Castle Combe on Thursday but there were GT2, GT3, GT4 and RS and an R amongst the other cars out on track.

Porsche911R said:

“So why are people buying a GT3 when we all know they really don't make that good a road car.”

I have done 7k miles this year in a 997.2 GT3 CS and found it to be a very nice road car indeed. Plenty of space for luggage for a 10 day trip and Cup2 is such a good tyre these days that the car remains very driveable in poor weather.

Porsche911R said:

“Very few enthusiasts are ending up in these cars and for me any one with a stock geo is NOT really interested in the car really,”

I have a 997.2 GT3, 991.2 GT3 and CGT. All are on factory settings. If I got to the point where I felt the car was underperforming I would get some more instruction.

Porsche911R said:

“I def don't get the 50% of people buying PDK GT3's or 70% specing PCCB's in the UK, again it's all pub talk and look at me buyers.”

My half day at PEC on Monday convinced me that I had done the right thing by specifying PDK for the 991.2GT3 though it has to be said that that was without the benefit of trying the manual version. Nevertheless, I have some experience of other 6 speed manual boxes and thought PDK was deeply impressive and in my view complements some of the other electronically controlled systems such as RWS and eDiff. Few people in the Eight Bells would have the slightest idea what PCCB are so if that were the motive it would be an expensive and nugatory gesture.

Congratulations this post has officially been judged to be THE post of 2017 - it’s a cracker , I particularly like the point about further instruction - as always, I personally find the weakest link by some considerable margin, is me and not the car

Edited by RSVP911 on Saturday 21st October 13:11

[Porsche911R]

I cannot take the post serious myself. But will not go into the reasons why.

[Digga]

Fl0pp3r said:

I don't think anyone here is saying that the GT4 isn't a special thing to drive. Maybe the next one will have the motorsport powerplant the chassis deserves. Hell, I'm still tempted!!

Right now tho' OP I think I'd struggle to keep my £85k from nailing down this gorgeous cobalt blue 997.1 clubbie at JZM............
https://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Po...

Nigh on identical age, mileage and spec to the white car I bought from them the other week. This must have been 'waiting in the wings' because it wasn't on display and although I'd still have chosen white, this car looks lovely.

As I'd said earlier in the thread, I was very much aware of the fact that my money would get me a very nice and obviously newer GT4, but my heart had been set a long time ago.

[Fl0pp3r]

How you bonding with the new car Digga? Hope you’re enjoying it!

[Fl0pp3r]

RSVP911 said:

Congratulations this post has officially been judged to be THE post of 2017 - it’s a cracker , I particularly like the point about further instruction - as always, I personally find the weakest link by some considerable margin, is me and not the car

Edited by RSVP911 on Saturday 21st October 13:11

Well there’s always plenty to get one’s teeth stuck into when MrD posts

[Digga]

Fl0pp3r said:

How you bonding with the new car Digga? Hope you’re enjoying it!

Love it, but it's not turned a wheel since the day I picked it up. Just the way things worked out - an already planned holiday last weekend and the weather (it's been dire), extremely busy with work - but I have got dates to get the PPF and ceramic coating done, so it will need properly christening.

[FocusRS3]

I've owned 2 997 GT3's , one was crap from an Opc and the other bought privately .

I sold the GT3 as I had a GT4 incoming and looking back I've no regrets .

I sat in a 997 GT3 at RPM the other week and as good as they are it felt old and dated .
Yes I know the 997 has the Mezger engine but the Cayman is a brilliant bit of kit too.

If I had to choose between the two now I'd go GT4

[nudgerwilliams]

Fl0pp3r said:

I don't think anyone here is saying that the GT4 isn't a special thing to drive. Maybe the next one will have the motorsport powerplant the chassis deserves. Hell, I'm still tempted!!

This is kind of my point. For a car that everyone (well nearly everyone!) agrees is special to drive, there's a lot of moaning about the engine.

[GT4RS]

I would have to say the newer gt4 purely on the more up today technology and in my opinion a better looking car.

[Paul-0uao7]

I'm in a similar positon to the OP and have recently asked the question to the team at JZM and at 911Sport. Interestingly, despite the fact that they each had both a GT3 and a GT4 in stock that they could sell me for roughly the same money, both said it was "no contest, you want the GT3".

Please keep the advice coming guys - I'm teetering on the edge of Porsche ownership!

[Digga]

Paul-0uao7 said:

Please keep the advice coming guys - I'm teetering on the edge of Porsche ownership!

There's no wrong answer really.

I bought with heart being set on a GT3 in the first place, but had I not been of that mindset - were I in your position, I'd try to get a drive in both.

[PaulAlex]

Digga said:

here's no wrong answer really.

I bought with heart being set on a GT3 in the first place, but had I not been of that mindset - were I in your position, I'd try to get a drive in both.

TBH I've competed in motorsport a little over the years, plus really value the experts' opinion, so the GT3 looks set to get my vote too. In my mind, the fact that the GT3 may come with bigger bills is largely offset by the likelihood of the values holding slightly better in comparison with the GT4 over the length of ownership.....

[braddo]

In terms of enjoyment, I would think a key thing for the OP to think about is where your preference sits on the spectrum for the age of a car and the resulting changes in tactility and electronics. There's no wrong answer, just different preferences.

Newer = driving controls get less feelsome, more electronic systems.

GT4 - relatively numb e-steering, PASM, PSM, not sure how brake feel compares, e-throttle, better refinement, more 'modern' engine character re: refinement, noise (not exhaust) and torque/power curve shape.

997.1 GT3 - hydraulic steering but variable ratio, PASM, no PSM but basic traction control, e-throttle.

996.2 GT3 - more feelsome linear steering, passive suspension, no traction/stability control, e-throttle

996.1 GT3 - as above but with a cable throttle(?)

Then as you go older with the 911 it continues on further, getting progressively more tactile/raw - 993 > 964 > impact bumper cars > 2.7 RS probably at the far end of the spectrum.

If things about the older cars aren't to your preference (including styling, interior etc) then the GT4 is the answer.

[GT4RS]

braddo said:

In terms of enjoyment, I would think a key thing for the OP to think about is where your preference sits on the spectrum for the age of a car and the resulting changes in tactility and electronics. There's no wrong answer, just different preferences.

Newer = driving controls get less feelsome, more electronic systems.

GT4 - relatively numb e-steering, PASM, PSM, not sure how brake feel compares, e-throttle, better refinement, more 'modern' engine character re: refinement, noise (not exhaust) and torque/power curve shape.

997.1 GT3 - hydraulic steering but variable ratio, PASM, no PSM but basic traction control, e-throttle.

996.2 GT3 - more feelsome linear steering, passive suspension, no traction/stability control, e-throttle

996.1 GT3 - as above but with a cable throttle(?)

Then as you go older with the 911 it continues on further, getting progressively more tactile/raw - 993 > 964 > impact bumper cars > 2.7 RS probably at the far end of the spectrum.

If things about the older cars aren't to your preference (including styling, interior etc) then the GT4 is the answer.

Agree with above, well put.

[Slippydiff]

GT4RS said:

braddo said:

In terms of enjoyment, I would think a key thing for the OP to think about is where your preference sits on the spectrum for the age of a car and the resulting changes in tactility and electronics. There's no wrong answer, just different preferences.

Newer = driving controls get less feelsome, more electronic systems.

GT4 - relatively numb e-steering, PASM, PSM, not sure how brake feel compares, e-throttle, better refinement, more 'modern' engine character re: refinement, noise (not exhaust) and torque/power curve shape.

997.1 GT3 - hydraulic steering but variable ratio, PASM, no PSM but basic traction control, e-throttle.

996.2 GT3 - more feelsome linear steering, passive suspension, no traction/stability control, e-throttle

996.1 GT3 - as above but with a cable throttle(?)

Then as you go older with the 911 it continues on further, getting progressively more tactile/raw - 993 > 964 > impact bumper cars > 2.7 RS probably at the far end of the spectrum.

If things about the older cars aren't to your preference (including styling, interior etc) then the GT4 is the answer.

Agree with above, well put.

Anon said:

To me, as an averagely talented road car driver it's that very 'analogue', unfiltered feedback from the controls that gives me the warm glow of satisfaction that comes with handling something so obviously mechanical, a machine rather than a slick consumer product. Like all the nuances in the soundtrack of a truly great engine and the way you can almost feel the cogs separating and engaging in a gooed manual shift gearbox, all the tiny movements of the steering wheel in your hands, telegraphing what's going on between tyres and road surface beyond a simple message of 'grip/no grip' that enrichen and enliven the experience.

It's why classics and some low-volume specials can get under ones skin so much more easily than arguably vastly superior machinery. It doesn't make me any faster. It doesn't make me any more confident (given the constraints of road driving, either is probably a good thing). But it does make me happier.

Amen.

[PaulAlex]

Would most of you agree that values for both models will be heading south for the foreseeable future, but that the GT3 will probably move at a slower rate than the GT4?

My thoughts on this being that the GT3 has reached its "icon" status, despite already been replaced by various models, whereas the GT4 is yet to be super-ceded. Obviously miles and condition being an important factor too.

Thanks,

Paul

[Porsche911R]

PaulAlex said:

Would most of you agree that values for both models will be heading south for the foreseeable future,
Thanks,

Paul

both models look very stable imo the GT4 has gone up if you want the spec, they were £85k for about a year then a drop to £83k and now the cheapest OPC with leather and buckets and Carbon is £87k

just like the GT3 there is now a £20k divide from the low end higer miles models to the high spec lower miles models.

the thing is with the GT4 it seems if they drop to circa £83k at an OPC with the spec they sell very fast, the low spec ones don't and the high price ones don't sell that fast.

but for value the GT4 has most cars licked imo if you want a sub 10kmile 997 GT3 its over a £100k and if the want the 997.2 GT3 it's £130k (with buckets)

but you can buy a low miles high spec GT4 for £85k

[Cheburator mk2]

When you start seeing GT4s appearing on teenager's bedroom walls, then, maybe, just maybe we can talk about it being an iconic car. When it starts winning left-right-and-centre, and when it starts delivering that feeling of real achievement - man AGAINST the machine, not WITH, then maybe, just maybe it can make it on the all time Porsche list somewhere towards the back...

Don't get me wrong - they are blindingly fast and very accomplished cars. I see them at track days and keeping them at bay/staying in touch in my super tricked 996.1 CS K400 is very hard work. However, I have zero interest in them. Just in the same way I have zero interest in a cooking 911...

[Cheib]

PaulAlex said:

Would most of you agree that values for both models will be heading south for the foreseeable future, but that the GT3 will probably move at a slower rate than the GT4?

My thoughts on this being that the GT3 has reached its "icon" status, despite already been replaced by various models, whereas the GT4 is yet to be super-ceded. Obviously miles and condition being an important factor too.

Thanks,

Paul

I think values will most likely diverge to be honest....good spec i..e. Clubsport 997 GT3's of either generation still sell for decent money...they take longer to sell than they did at the beginning of this year than they did but still get good money. Don't see that changing as there are so few of them and obviously they do have a USP for a lot of people given the engine, hydraulic steering etc

There are plenty of GT4's (It's a high volume product by Porsche GT standards in the UK) on the market with some delivery miles cars coming out of the woodwork at the moment which you can only assume are making way for 991.2 GT3's...but they're selling despite the time of year! GT4 is much harder to call as we don't know for sure what it's going to get replaced with....it's great value when you look what else the money buys you and I suspect the price point of whatever replaces it might be somewhat higher than the current cars RRP. If it's replaced with a car powered by a turbo 4 pot I reckon the current model will firm up in price. Worst case scenario is GT4 prices drift lower I reckon....there are plenty of people that will look at them who haven't previously been able to afford. £70k currently buys you something like a 12yr old 40k mile 996 GT3....if GT4's get to that level next year I think I'd go for the newer car.

Overall market is definitely a little bit soft but I think both have lots to recommend these against cars at similar prices.