997 gt3 or gt4

[Steve Rance]

Weight distribution aside, The power unit - in terms of quality and ability - is what truly separates the cars. The M engine is frankly in a different league But if you have no intention of tracking the car I can't see the point of buying a GT3 over a GT4 unless you want to polish it and put it in a studio somewhere. I cannot think of a worse fate for one of these beautiful cars. As a road car, the GT4 has few piers in my opinion

[Twinfan]

Good points, but you can enjoy the fabulous engine of the GT3 every time you go for a drive - even just pottering about. Enjoying the handling benefits of the GT4 on the road requires higher speeds than cruising around.

I'd argue any GT product is wasted if it doesn't go on track, and you'd be better off in a 997/991/981 GTS as a road only car...

[Fokker]

Twinfan said:

Good points, but you can enjoy the fabulous engine of the GT3 every time you go for a drive - even just pottering about. Enjoying the handling benefits of the GT4 on the road requires higher speeds than cruising around.

I'd argue any GT product is wasted if it doesn't go on track, and you'd be better off in a 997/991/981 GTS as a road only car...

I disagree with you there I'm afraid. You don't need very high speeds to enjoy the GT4 to appreciate its qualities, gorgeous balance and grip. Cardiff to Snowdonia and back over the course of a weekend is something I have done over 200 times in the past 17 years. Its a complete blast and a very good journey to sample the differences between engines, chassis, brakes you name it. I've sampled it in some fantastic machinery over the years and the GT4 is the best yet by some margin. I did the journey in a Cayman GTS once and although excellent, there was very little between that and a standard Cayman S, at least to me anyway. I know you love the GTS and its a great car but it's just a bit too much everyday for me. Manual GT3 incoming but I can't imagine it being that much better than the GT4, if at all.. Faster, yes, but the GT4 is plenty fast enough for those roads.

[Twinfan]

And disagreeing with me is of course fine, I've no problem with that Different opinions are available of course

[Steve Rance]

Yep. That's my point. It's an engine designed to live its life at 8000 plus rpm and never break. The car is geared to that it defines it. It's a GT racing car experience for the road and - more importantly - track. There have been very few cars ever built that offer that experience. If you are not looking for that, a GT3 isn't for you. There are a lot of drivers that would love to experience that but they won't because somebody else with more money and less idea has bought one to polish with zymol instead.

[Digga]

I'd add that having now owned two Mezger engined cars, aside from the high-rev sparkle of the GT3, the quality that even the stratospherically high-revving 991 GT3 engine has no answer for is the wonderfully idiosyncratic nature of the Mezger on idle and warm up. You just know it's no stock, standard production engine by that.

[Porsche911R]

RSVP911 said:

Genuine question - not a swipe, honestly : Do you think the 991.2 will solve your frustrations with the GT3 as reading this, I can’t see why you’d want one ?

My biggest issues with the GT4 are gearing and the lack of fun on that engine at max revs, ie no point hitting red line in a GT4.

I am sure people are not stupid on here, but the manual 991.2 GT3 has shorter ratio's and 500BHP and a load more torque lower down. nothing like a 997 or a 997.2 Mezger engine or gear box.

will I find it frustrating ?, I have no idea, but as they are free cars to own you may as well try them and if you like them you keep them, it's very simple.

[Porsche911R]

Steve Rance said:

But if you have no intention of tracking the car I can't see the point of buying a GT3 over a GT4 unless you want to polish it and put it in a studio somewhere.

this x 3000 %

[gtsralph]

Porsche911R said:

will I find it frustrating ?, I have no idea, but as they are free cars to own you may as well try them and if you like them you keep them, it's very simple.

So very true

[RSVP911]

RSVP911 said:

Porsche911R said:

My biggest issues with the GT4 are gearing and the lack of fun on that engine at max revs, ie no point hitting red line in a GT4.

I am sure people are not stupid on here, but the manual 991.2 GT3 has shorter ratio's and 500BHP and a load more torque lower down. nothing like a 997 or a 997.2 Mezger engine or gear box.

will I find it frustrating ?, I have no idea, but as they are free cars to own you may as well try them and if you like them you keep them, it's very simple.

Ok - we’ll let’s hope you get one. I can’t see how anyone couldn’t love a GT3 - IMHO base 911’s should be GT3’s - I think they are amazing cars (even if the engine is in the wrong place )

BTW - I think we all know they aren’t “freee” - that ship has well and truly sailed

[Oso]

Some times I think people post these threads to start a fight and then sit back and watch - no sign of the OP since his first post lol

[isaldiri]

Fokker said:

I did the journey in a Cayman GTS once and although excellent, there was very little between that and a standard Cayman S, at least to me anyway. I know you love the GTS and its a great car but it's just a bit too much everyday for me..

And in the same way the gt4 on the road feels like a sorted Cayman gts with more power and while it's a nice enough car, it feels too similar to the standard 981 for me.. When I took the gt4 to the 'ring last year with a friend, on the return leg I simply wasn't at all bothered about driving around some of the back roads at the Eifel (which are superb) en route and just ended up chucking the keys at my friend to drive back.

Funnily enough, while both cars are at their best on track and it would imo be a closer thing if used solely on track, it's the road experience that would make me pick the gt3 everytime as unfortunately I can't spend all my time on track and the car has to be interesting to drive as well on the road. The 7gt3 feels very different from the standard 997, the gt4 to me does not (and for that matter in many ways neither does the 991.1gt3 outside of the very high revving but fragile engine) over the 9X1 cars and it's not just a question of the (considerably better) engine that makes the difference between the 2 cars..

[Ernie321]

No I'm not hiding I'm just taking All in and getting advice of people with more experience of these cars and I have myself
I have had two 911 is in the past but now I have now got a Tvr Tamora which I love and I had a lot of money spent on it over the years it has a close ratio gearbox the diff re geared for acceleration so it's very quick off the mark my friend has a M5 the new version my car keep up with his car up to about 65 miles an hour how are you just blows me away
I would love a 997.1 gt3 or a gt4 my budget won't stretch to a 997.2 gt3 and the budget is a very big thing as I do not want to lose money on these cars over the coming years it will be bought as an investment so I have to pick The right car but it will be used not just a garage queen like my tamora is
Track days aren't important to me so it's just basically for the road
I just want the right car To have a bit of fun in and not lose too much money over the coming years

[Oso]

So, honestly, if you're not going to track it, I'd say have a really good think about a 981 Spyder. It's also rarer than GT4 and will likely therefore hold its value better.

[Oso]

Of the two you originally mentioned, GT4 is a great road car too, don't get me wrong - I actually used mine as my daily as well as for weekend blasts and track. It's a tremendous all rounder. And I'm sure folks enjoyably use 997 GT3s on the road and as dailies too, although I have only driven friends' on track and briefly on the road. For me, GT4 would get my vote for the road, being smaller, and way more forgiving around the limit than a .1 GT3. It also benefits from the technology having moved on a long way e.g. lighter clutch and gearshift, superb traction and stability control etc. No getting away from the Mezger being a more "special" engine, but I honestly never felt short changed by the GT4.

Anyway, do have a look at the Spyder - it really works as a road car; a bit less highly strung, a bit more on its toes, and the open roof just gives you a lot more involvement. I think it's interesting how the Spyder guys seem to have bonded with theirs.

PS - glad you have found the debate useful and sorry for teasing you about the radio silence!

Edited by Oso on Thursday 19th October 01:03

[isaldiri]

Oso said:

For me, GT4 would get my vote for the road, being smaller, and way more forgiving around the limit than a .1 GT3.!

GT4 - length 4438mm, width 1817mm
GT3 - length 4481mm, width 1808mm

The cars are essentially the same size. tbh I thought the gt4 was the bigger car!

[Joehow]

Oso said:

Of the two you originally mentioned, GT4 is a great road car too, don't get me wrong - I actually used mine as my daily as well as for weekend blasts and track. It's a tremendous all rounder. And I'm sure folks enjoyably use 997 GT3s on the road and as dailies too, although I have only driven friends' on track and briefly on the road. For me, GT4 would get my vote for the road, being smaller, and way more forgiving around the limit than a .1 GT3. It also benefits from the technology having moved on a long way e.g. lighter clutch and gearshift, superb traction and stability control etc. No getting away from the Mezger being a more "special" engine, but I honestly never felt short changed by the GT4.

Anyway, do have a look at the Spyder - it really works as a road car; a bit less highly strung, a bit more on its toes, and the open roof just gives you a lot more involvement. I think it's interesting how the Spyder guys seem to have bonded with theirs.

PS - glad you have found the debate useful and sorry for teasing you about the radio silence!

Edited by Oso on Thursday 19th October 01:03

Agree on the Spyder point. I was due to move to a GT4 from my GTS but given my old man owned both a 996.2 gt3 and currently owns a 997.2 gt3 JZM advised id feel the GT4 didnt quite cut it on the road and the engine didnt match the overall package.

Like the above they suggested the Spyder was the much better road car and companion to the GT3s, long story short is they found me one and I couldnt be happier. The lack of a motorsport engine doesnt matter as its not trying to be that instead it stands on its own right.

It's also very rare and that is likely to help value.

If you must have a GT3 fot investment (id strongly reccomend you use it on track) then a 996.2 GT3 clubsport is a better bet than a 997.1 in my opinion. Theyre also more exciting on the road than any other GT3 imho - so raw and also small!

Happy to take you out in any if you're ever in the south

[Porsche911R]

Joehow said:

The lack of a motorsport engine doesnt matter as its not trying to be that instead it stands on its own right.

I find it odd Spyder owners love the Engine but GT3 people hate it if it's in a GT4 lol

I never thought of the GT4 as trying to hard, if it's amazing in the Spyder it's amazing in the GT4 !

[Twinfan]

Different expectations and needs in a Spyder vs a GT4. What's great for one thing won't always be great for the other - it's not that simple.

[Porsche911R]

Twinfan said:

Different expectations and needs in a Spyder vs a GT4. What's great for one thing won't always be great for the other - it's not that simple.

look people don't track GT3's any more, and as Steve Rance said, that engine is pointless if you are not going to track it.
So why are people buying a GT3 when we all know they really don't make that good a road car. !
Is it for pub talk so you can say I own a GT3 or I have 1/2 of a race engine from a GT1 which revs it's nuts off !!!

You see more people in GT4's on track , but overall 90% are stock with a st geo, people don't "drive" any of these cars imo.

Very few enthusiasts are ending up in these cars and for me any one with a stock geo is NOT really interested in the car really, it's more about values or getting to use a free car for 2 years over the engine or the drive of the things.

The Spyder seems an older owner market on the whole for some reason, these people are not hooning about and love the engine and extra torque it offers, I doubt most have been over 6k lol and the investers still have not ran them in yet ! so stuck below 4k

It's a great engine the 3.8 the GT4 works better than any model of GT3 on the road and the added bonus is you can run a crazy geo on them and drive them to a Euro track day where they hold their own over the older GT3 and the like, most of which seem to turn up on trailers these days !

Even the new GT3 is missing the pocket rocket GT4 feel and 50% have gone for full automation anyway.

GT4 is a quality product, the 3.8 is a quality engine, the gearing saps the car not the engine and is the GT4 down side.

Would I want a Mezger engine in a GT4, no way I like to be able to use my cars a lot. would I want the new GT3 engine in the GT4, that's a tough on as you may as well buy the new GT3 but then that's £130k over the £75k GT4 price.

you say "expectations" but you cannot expect the GT3 engine at £130k in a GT4 at £75k so what was the expectation ?

imo the GT4 at £75k met all "expectations" as it has a lot of kit at this price all form the GT3 and RS models none of which the Spyder has.

meeting "expectations" does not mean it's a perfect product, no car is, but boy at the GT4 price no other manufacture has come close, a Sporty Evora is over £100k now.

GT4 is the only ever Boxster or Cayman in 12 years or ever with fully adjustable sus, so for me it's a winner, there are no engine issues imo, just that nagging gearing issue which all GT cars have bar the 997.2 RS and the new 991.2 GT3 again ones now £180k and one is £130k.

only my views of course but at £75k fully loaded the GT4 is an amazing product, I may even keep mine over the new GT3 as I think the new cars are missing a little something. and keeping the GT4 frees up £55k to buy a Elise 250 cup or some thing FUN over pub talk.

I def don't get the 50% of people buying PDK GT3's or 70% specing PCCB's in the UK, again it's all pub talk and look at me buyers.