997 gt3 or gt4

[Twinfan]

That's a big rant. I'm not sure why you care what other people think or do with their cars - I certainly don't. If people want a GT3 to polish or cruise about and go to the shops in why not? Life's too short not to enjoy it while you can.

Oh, and there's no way you'd turn down a 991.2 GT3 allocation in order to keep your GT4 either. Can't see that happening.

Edited by Twinfan on Thursday 19th October 09:59

[Joehow]

Porsche911R said:

I find it odd Spyder owners love the Engine but GT3 people hate it if it's in a GT4 lol

I never thought of the GT4 as trying to hard, if it's amazing in the Spyder it's amazing in the GT4 !

At Spa the 3.8 Mezger engine feels a big step on from a standard GT4 lump however a GT4 does feel more balanced out of the box.

I did however spend an afternoon in a great battle with silver GT4 with powerkit and fully Manthey geo and it was a MUCH faster car than a stabdard GT4.

In terms of Spyder vs GT4 yes the engine is the same but it does a different job. In the spyder it feels exciting as its a lot for te 265 tyres. On a GT4 you have to absolutely throw the thing around at speed to get it to move around with the standard engine.

As I say just my opinion. A GT4 is a brilliant car but im lucky enough for a Spyder to be better for the road and a GT3 more excitintg on track! Especially with an Akropovic!

[Fokker]

Porsche911R said:

I def don't get the 50% of people buying PDK GT3's or 70% specing PCCB's in the UK, again it's all pub talk and look at me buyers.

I agree with a lot of what you've just say there but you're only really having a GT3 for the profits, be honest. So you'll be part of the 'people you don't get' because you'll spec PCCB's. If you don't you're just throwing money away on resale! Also it's not the case that people aren't loving their cars driving occasionally on track with standard geo set up. Some people just don't have the time to mess about with setting and can just about fit in the odd track day because of young kids etc and family always comes first.

I agree that people are expecting too much from a GT4 at £65k and just can't be bothered driving them anymore. Talk about first world problems.

[v8ksn]

Lots of varied views on here and thats they way it should be

I am firmly in the GT3 over GT4 camp but that is because I just prefer the feel of a 911 over the astonishingly capable mid-engined GT4.

I LIKE the fact the gearbox is a bh when its cold......because I know how sweet it is when its warmed through.

I LIKE the fact that these cars have been (historically) used as intended because there is a wealth of tried-and-tested products and modifications that do or dont work.

I LIKE the fact the engine goads you to explore its higher rev range......because it sounds truly amazing. Blasting into a tunnel in 4th gear, blip the throttle, change into 3rd and accelerating out with the sound reverberating off the walls is truly epic. Gear changes at high revs are epic. This car is epic and when I get in it, I smile to myself.


Whatever car you have, GT3, GT4, Spyder, GTS, air cooled or kettle. If you get in and smile then you have bought the right car. Now get off this forum and go and drive it

[Oso]

Agreed, folks have forgotten these were £65k list new (pre-options). It was a staggering achievement to cram in all the motorsport kit they did. OK the engine was not from a GT3, but who honestly thought they could afford to put a GT3 engine in there at a £65k price point? Certainly I didn’t.

I was thrilled to be offered one - not because I "missed out" on 991 GT3 or because I was mad 991 had gone PDK and rear wheel steer (I actually thought/ think the modern GT3s are incredible machines, too), but simply because I couldn't afford a GT3.

There is nothing wrong with the GT4 engine. It is a great engine. Defo IMHO the best water-cooled, naturally-aspirated, non-motorsport engine Porsche have made.

The car’s “problem” is that the chassis is not merely great, it is absolutely epic. So folks are left grumbling about what it would be like with a GT3 engine in it. Well, maybe we’ll find out in time, but it won’t be a £65k car anymore, it will be a £100k car.

Part of the problem here is that the car attracted a lot of speculators who thought it would be the last great manual NA Porsche, as well as lot of genuine enthusiasts who were finding GT3 too computer assisted.

I think now Porsche has moved to address this with the changes to the GT3 range, GT4 has lost it's raison d'aitre - in the eyes of some. In the meantime, the car is sitting at a price point in the used market where older/leggier GT3s are an alternative. So folks like our OP are legitimately asking questions about value/ fun. But it’s not really comparing apples with apples.

[evodarren]

Ive had my 997.1 GT3 for 5 years nows.never driven a GT4, maybe im missing out. But i really love the character of the GT3 engine. A real good challenge on fast A & B roads. Very manic at the topend. Is the GT4 like that at the top of the rev range.

[Oso]

v8ksn said:

Whatever car you have, GT3, GT4, Spyder, GTS, air cooled or kettle. If you get in and smile then you have bought the right car. Now get off this forum and go and drive it

^This

(Although I like thinking these things through from time to time as it helps me work out why I enjoy driving them so much)

[Oso]

evodarren said:

Ive had my 997.1 GT3 for 5 years nows.never driven a GT4, maybe im missing out. But i really love the character of the GT3 engine. A real good challenge on fast A & B roads. Very manic at the topend. Is the GT4 like that at the top of the rev range.

No - not manic, although still rewards being revved.

I'd say it has more low down punch, not much difference in middle range, but it lacks that really manic top end.

(I think this is part of what folks are grumbling about).

[Fokker]

I suppose the GT4 is a GT-lite. You get the chassis, suspensions and brakes but not a manic GT engine.
At 65k its a bargain, at 85k I still think its a bargain.

I suppose those that want a manual, mid engined screamer can just wait to see it the next one has that talent in its arsenal and if so, they can just go and buy one of those... or not as the case may be ...

[Twinfan]

Oso said:

I'd say it has more low down punch, not much difference in middle range, but it lacks that really manic top end.

(I think this is part of what folks are grumbling about).

Yep, the de-tuning of the GT4's 3.8 was really apparent to me as I revved it to the redline. As isaldiri says it means the character is more turbo-diesel than racetrack screamer - these are extreme examples to get the point across, obviously! It doesn't have that really zingy free-revving nature that I would want in a track-biased car.

It's a decent enough road engine, but given the superb track abilities of the GT4 a more track focused engine would make it awesome. Corners had to be cut to hit the £65k pricing and pecking order positioning though, of course

[evodarren]

Oso said:

No - not manic, although still rewards being revved.

I'd say it has more low down punch, not much difference in middle range, but it lacks that really manic top end.

(I think this is part of what folks are grumbling about).

Best i dont try out a GT4 then, or i may want one. The PDK in the 991.1 has stopped me many times from changing.I was too late for the 991.2 order. Oh well maybe 5 years when the prices have settled again.

[isaldiri]

Porsche911R said:

look people don't track GT3's any more

Look harder, every trackday I've been to this year has had good numbers of gt3s of all generations.

Porsche911R said:

So why are people buying a GT3 when we all know they really don't make that good a road car. !

Laughable claim when it's just your opinion. You might think it's not a good road car, imo the gt3 has a bigger advantage on the road vs the gt4 compared to on track.

Porsche911R said:

You see more people in GT4's on track , but overall 90% are stock with a st geo, people don't "drive" any of these cars imo.

Very few enthusiasts are ending up in these cars and for me any one with a stock geo is NOT really interested in the car really, it's more about values or getting to use a free car for 2 years over the engine or the drive of the things.

Funnily enough, these people probably have driven the gt4 more than yourself over the course of their ownership. That qualifies more as being an enthuasiast then putting some extra parts or messing with a geo just to prove that you are 'an enthusiast'. And you're also primarily interested in the free car aspect of things so I wouldn't throw stones in a glasshouse if I were you....

Porsche911R said:

the 3.8 is a quality engine, the gearing saps the car not the engine and is the GT4 down side.
It's a great engine the 3.8 the GT4 works better than any model of GT3 on the road

GT4, maximum torque 309lbft at 4750. Max rpm 7800
GT3, maximum torque 300lbft at 5500. Max rpm 8400

Max speeds in gear similar up to 4th. It's the engine that is the issue on the gt4 not the gearing for me. More power and/or higher up the rev range rather than essentially flat lining past ~6k rpm would solve a lot of the perception of long gearing.

Twinfan said:

Oh, and there's no way you'd turn down a 991.2 GT3 allocation in order to keep your GT4 either. Can't see that happening.

Just going to flip it as it's a free car clearly....

[Oso]

evodarren said:

Oso said:

No - not manic, although still rewards being revved.

I'd say it has more low down punch, not much difference in middle range, but it lacks that really manic top end.

(I think this is part of what folks are grumbling about).

Best i dont try out a GT4 then, or i may want one. The PDK in the 991.1 has stopped me many times from changing.I was too late for the 991.2 order. Oh well maybe 5 years when the prices have settled again.

I'd be really interested if you did TBH - especially given your long relationship with the GT3. My suspicion is you'd notice the engine less than the chassis, and find the amount of grip, and the balance, of the GT4 utterly addictive. Over time, I'm sure you'd miss the GT3's particular character of course. But life is short - I say why not try as many of these great cars as you can Not a bad time to make the switch, with relative values where they are!

[Twinfan]

isaldiri said:

Just going to flip it as it's a free car clearly....

[Digga]

FWIW, I've never driven a GT4, but have seen enough of them being used properly to know that, whilst the engine may not be 'the Mezger', it still sounds very, very good. Always a car that's impressed me as a whole package TBH.

[Fokker]

I've just called my dealer to ask them to come an collect my GT4 asap without delay.

Its going, I just can't bear to live with such a terrible car any longer... I had no idea I was driving such a piece of cack.

Bye Bye GT4. Its been a grea...... bloody terrible experience.

[Oso]

Fokker said:

I've just called my dealer to ask them to come an collect my GT4 asap without delay.

Its going, I just can't bear to live with such a terrible car any longer... I had no idea I was driving such a piece of cack.

Bye Bye GT4. Its been a grea...... bloody terrible experience.

Shh! If you are too blatant about it, people will realise you are just talking down the market so we can buy more!!

[isaldiri]

Fokker said:

I've just called my dealer to ask them to come an collect my GT4 asap without delay.

Its going, I just can't bear to live with such a terrible car any longer... I had no idea I was driving such a piece of cack.

Bye Bye GT4. Its been a grea...... bloody terrible experience.

Hold on, I know I seem to be always having a go at the gt4 but that's more as a counterpoint to the hagiographic comments about it from owners who might just be a tad biased (and understandably so). I am in not in any shape of form suggesting it's terrible or a piece of cack and I don't think people need to be quite that sensitive to perceived criticism of their car. The gt4 is a very good car for it's new price (ok ~75-80k options dependent). Porsche have not unexpectedly delivered very well on the design brief for the car ie to be a very capable car on track at it's price point.

The issue in this case it carries the 'GT' badge and in particular is being compared to the 7gt3. To me at least a GT car represents as Steve Rance says a car that offers something of the GT race car experience in a road legal form.

[Fokker]

Oso said:

Shh! If you are too blatant about it, people will realise you are just talking down the market so we can buy more!!

Makes me want to


Has it come down in price since this morning yet?

[TDT]

Not all GT cars are top end manic..... Enter the GT2, GT2 RS.

The essence of GT cars are the chassis, the adjustability, and the engineering to drive to track or spirited driving, run around all day at a track, and then drive back home - out of the box. GT4 being the entry level GT car is the concentrated distillation of that essence...

The power plant which of course is important needs to be appropriate for the application.... and we can see this in the range..as you move up the range - you get more adjustability, and more engineering.

People have lost sight of the purpose of these cars.