Flipped GT3.2's
Discussion
Guys, maybe I am stating the obvious but....
Let's not forget how bad the situation is. When we drive off the forecourt the car has lost 20% (VAT) technically this is on any and every car purchased in the UK. If we then are asked to pay £200k on a car that cost £130k including options and VAT just do the maths as to how much overs we are really being slammed with.
I love Porsche and the brand but the fact that they can't eliminate the flippers 110% is beyond me. The Ford GT owners had to go through a lengthy application process to get hold of their cars. Why isn't Porsche saying in a condition of sale that you are entitled to sell the car in the first two years but you must return the car to Porsche for first refusal before the open market.
So many solutions are available to Porsche to eliminate the practice yet they clearly have a vested interest in the status quo being maintained, as has been discussed to death previously.
Mani
Let's not forget how bad the situation is. When we drive off the forecourt the car has lost 20% (VAT) technically this is on any and every car purchased in the UK. If we then are asked to pay £200k on a car that cost £130k including options and VAT just do the maths as to how much overs we are really being slammed with.
I love Porsche and the brand but the fact that they can't eliminate the flippers 110% is beyond me. The Ford GT owners had to go through a lengthy application process to get hold of their cars. Why isn't Porsche saying in a condition of sale that you are entitled to sell the car in the first two years but you must return the car to Porsche for first refusal before the open market.
So many solutions are available to Porsche to eliminate the practice yet they clearly have a vested interest in the status quo being maintained, as has been discussed to death previously.
Mani
ManiSBhogal69 said:
Guys, maybe I am stating the obvious but....
Let's not forget how bad the situation is. When we drive off the forecourt the car has lost 20% (VAT) technically this is on any and every car purchased in the UK.
Mani
How do you work that one out?? Why does a car lose the value of the VAT element when driven off the forecourt? Unless you are in a position to reclaim the VAT after purchasing, then the car is worth what the car is worth and it would make no difference to you as the purchaser if it was VAT qualifying or not. Even if the value stayed stagnant and didn't appreciate, it would still be worth the same as the purchase price that included VAT. And if it's a car that just naturally depreciates then it will be worth whatever the market is willing to pay.Let's not forget how bad the situation is. When we drive off the forecourt the car has lost 20% (VAT) technically this is on any and every car purchased in the UK.
Mani
Does a Rolex lose the VAT element straight away too?? Or anything else indeed??
ManiSBhogal69 said:
Guys, maybe I am stating the obvious but....
Let's not forget how bad the situation is. When we drive off the forecourt the car has lost 20% (VAT) technically this is on any and every car purchased in the UK. If we then are asked to pay £200k on a car that cost £130k including options and VAT just do the maths as to how much overs we are really being slammed with.
i
The fact that VAT is applicable to new cars but not to pre-owned cars does not mean that new cars lose 20% as soon as they leave the forecourt..Used car prices are set by demand and the reason in demand cars such as the Porsche GT cars command a significant premium over list.Let's not forget how bad the situation is. When we drive off the forecourt the car has lost 20% (VAT) technically this is on any and every car purchased in the UK. If we then are asked to pay £200k on a car that cost £130k including options and VAT just do the maths as to how much overs we are really being slammed with.
i
terryb said:
ManiSBhogal69 said:
Guys, maybe I am stating the obvious but....
Let's not forget how bad the situation is. When we drive off the forecourt the car has lost 20% (VAT) technically this is on any and every car purchased in the UK.
Mani
How do you work that one out?? Why does a car lose the value of the VAT element when driven off the forecourt? Unless you are in a position to reclaim the VAT after purchasing, then the car is worth what the car is worth and it would make no difference to you as the purchaser if it was VAT qualifying or not. Even if the value stayed stagnant and didn't appreciate, it would still be worth the same as the purchase price that included VAT. And if it's a car that just naturally depreciates then it will be worth whatever the market is willing to pay.Let's not forget how bad the situation is. When we drive off the forecourt the car has lost 20% (VAT) technically this is on any and every car purchased in the UK.
Mani
Does a Rolex lose the VAT element straight away too?? Or anything else indeed??
isaldiri said:
Someone has got suckered by the dealer trotting out the vat thing on px I think as that tends to be one of their favourite lines (which is of course BS)...
Always amused me this, the only VAT the dealer has to pay is on the amount of profit they make, not the whole value of the final sale price..Since I can remember (early 80s for me) it was always the argument used by most of joe public as to why it was mad to buy a brand new car, “As soon as you drive out the showroom you lose the VAT”....
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-not...
Bedlamater said:
Always amused me this, the only VAT the dealer has to pay is on the amount of profit they make, not the whole value of the final sale price..
Since I can remember (early 80s for me) it was always the argument used by most of joe public as to why it was mad to buy a brand new car, “As soon as you drive out the showroom you lose the VAT”....
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-not...
This is on only second hand cars?? What about new?Since I can remember (early 80s for me) it was always the argument used by most of joe public as to why it was mad to buy a brand new car, “As soon as you drive out the showroom you lose the VAT”....
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-not...
Bedlamater said:
Since I can remember (early 80s for me) it was always the argument used by most of joe public as to why it was mad to buy a brand new car, “As soon as you drive out the showroom you lose the VAT”....
I think this was the case many years ago in terms of if you bought a new car and tried to sell it back to the dealer within a couple of weeks they would try to knock 15% off the price to purchase it back from you.Things have changed alot since then. Now with the ability to sell cars on line and the demand for certain cars this is no longer the case for a lot of cars.
There are still cars where you lose a lot driving off the forecourt. If you buy a Bentley, even with big discounts, as soon as you own the car if you try to sell it back to them they'll try to buy back at least 25% off the price you paid!
n17ves said:
Cheib said:
I've seen other people on here saying OPC's are banned from selling cars at a premium to list whilst they're still in production. Didn't GT4's have to be removed from websites because of this ?
From what I've been told by my OPC Prosche GB do care. As with all these things each OPC is different though.
I can assure you Porsche GB don't care, I've literally been speaking to them daily for the last 6 months after been banned from local OPC (THATS RIGHT, BANNED!!)From what I've been told by my OPC Prosche GB do care. As with all these things each OPC is different though.
And with regards to not been able advertising on Porsche approved (Porsche Germany instructions), doesn't stop 'deals' been done.
All this fannying aound with 12 month advertising bans etc is just a pointless smokescreen.
Most OPC'S are involved and will sell cars for "overs" for a fee.
Mainly happened since 918/991 GT3 & RS.
Many have "halo" clients who will regularly return cars after a few months, even weeks.
Even GT2Rs are not immune with OPC involved in "contract" selling.
Porsche are a "victim" of there managed production levels for GT cars.
As long as demand far outstrips supply this will continue.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
They don't even try (Porsche GB). Porsche Germany may care, but Porsche GB certainly don't.... Send them the details of cars that that are being offered forsale (before even being collected) and they will not do anything, because at the end of the day, they just distribute the cars (their words). Even their customer service / complaints department is outsourced to the RAC, which is, fundamentally a call centre.
cormeist said:
This is on only second hand cars?? What about new?
New is obviously 20% of list price, regardless the "20% of value is lost because of VAT "is horse s
t - it gets brought up from time to time and shot down pretty quickly.If you buy a new car for £100k it is totally irrelevant that 80 goes to the dealer to cover their costs, and 20 to HMRC, the cost of the car to you is 100.
If you buy the same car second hand a month later, the price you pay will be based on the alternative option - buying new for £100k with a wait, or buying nearly new for a bit less, the difference will depend on desirability of car, how long a wait, whether the market cares being owner 2 etc etc. VAT however is totally irrelevant.
The only time when a dealer could mention it sensibly is when selling a ex-demo car where they can reclaim the VAT on a car they have purchased from the manufacturer as it is a business expense, so they have more flexibility in the sales price - the fact is they won't care about VAT either, they will sell for the maximum they can for an ex-demo car of that type
rkwm1 said:
There are still cars where you lose a lot driving off the forecourt. If you buy a Bentley, even with big discounts, as soon as you own the car if you try to sell it back to them they'll try to buy back at least 25% off the price you paid!
yep - all about the loss in value due to not buying brand new/next buyers spec choice/dealer making a margin - bugger all to do with VATn17ves said:
They don't even try (Porsche GB).
Porsche Germany may care, but Porsche GB certainly don't.... Send them the details of cars that that are being offered forsale (before even being collected) and they will not do anything, because at the end of the day, they just distribute the cars (their words). Even their customer service / complaints department is outsourced to the RAC, which is, fundamentally a call centre.
I've been told Porsche GB certainly do care by my OPC but I doubt any of us really knows what goes on between DP's/ Franchise Heads and Porsche GB. The fact that OPC's are seemingly taking a lot more interest this time around with where cars are ending up would indicate to me that there's more of an interest (for whatever reason) than there previously was. Porsche Germany may care, but Porsche GB certainly don't.... Send them the details of cars that that are being offered forsale (before even being collected) and they will not do anything, because at the end of the day, they just distribute the cars (their words). Even their customer service / complaints department is outsourced to the RAC, which is, fundamentally a call centre.
Cheib said:
n17ves said:
They don't even try (Porsche GB).
Porsche Germany may care, but Porsche GB certainly don't.... Send them the details of cars that that are being offered forsale (before even being collected) and they will not do anything, because at the end of the day, they just distribute the cars (their words). Even their customer service / complaints department is outsourced to the RAC, which is, fundamentally a call centre.
I've been told Porsche GB certainly do care by my OPC but I doubt any of us really knows what goes on between DP's/ Franchise Heads and Porsche GB. The fact that OPC's are seemingly taking a lot more interest this time around with where cars are ending up would indicate to me that there's more of an interest (for whatever reason) than there previously was. Porsche Germany may care, but Porsche GB certainly don't.... Send them the details of cars that that are being offered forsale (before even being collected) and they will not do anything, because at the end of the day, they just distribute the cars (their words). Even their customer service / complaints department is outsourced to the RAC, which is, fundamentally a call centre.
I've got an email from Porsche GB about a flipped 991.2 GT3 that they dismissed by telling me to take it up with the franchise.
I would publish the email, but its marked confidential (not sure what the legal implication even if I remove all the specifics?)
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I very much doubt it’s within the terms of each OPC’s franchise agreement that Porsche GB can unilaterally impose terms on the OPC as to the contractural terms under which OPC’s supply cars to their (not Porsche GB’s customers). I think Porsche GB have the OPC’s on short reins in terms of making sure that genuine customers get cars and no related parties e.g. “The DP’s wife/best friend” get cars because of the negative impact it has on the brand. However that’s very much between the OPC and Porsche GB.
Just because when someone complains to Porsche GB about a car being flipped and they say “Please complain to the supplying OPC” that doesn’t mean Porsche GB don’t get on the phone to the OPC and give them a massive b
king...they’re just not going to tell anyone else that. It’s “straight bat” to the public whilst the bking goes on behind closed doors I imagine. GT4RS said:
Taffy you talk sense, I’m sure the genuine DP’s in the opc centres try there best to keep track of cars and are probably very disappointed if they get into the hands of people in it just to make a fast buck. It must be very difficult for the DP’s deciding who can have an allocation or not. I’m yet to own a new GT car but I hope by carrying on my relationship with my local opc will one day enable me to spec a new gt car to my preferred spec.
Imo it’s a dying shame not to see these cars being driven, let’s not forget the reason most of us true car nuts got into cars years a ago was due to seeing these sort of cars out and about as a kid. The only place you get to see these sort of cars nowadays is on the internet!
Sorry for being a bit negative, but don't you think all those people who have secured an allocation to date (current or previous GT cars) are also continuing to play the game to 'maintain a relationship'? ie unless the OPCs say 'if you have had a GT car then you cannot have another for 4 iterations' then you will always be number 700 (say) and Porsche only make 2-300 of any iteration which goes to existing good customers....Imo it’s a dying shame not to see these cars being driven, let’s not forget the reason most of us true car nuts got into cars years a ago was due to seeing these sort of cars out and about as a kid. The only place you get to see these sort of cars nowadays is on the internet!
(until they start depreciating again, of course)
(I realised someone will post soon how they got one and have never bought a Porsche before, etc, etc)
Haha Steve too right yes little disappointed that no GT3 or R or RS .... after trying to buy , yes not a Big player as will never buy all the other Porsche stuff ( SUVs etc ) as have bought GT3's / RS when they could not sell them .
But then I do not buy the Porsche umbrella or sweater , I simply do not care about the Brand , but love the heritage and hence continue to compete in Porsche cars .
Winning at Spa and being on the banking at Daytona racing a Porsche is fun ...
No new Porsche no problem can live without that .... yes DD is now a Ferrari
But then I do not buy the Porsche umbrella or sweater , I simply do not care about the Brand , but love the heritage and hence continue to compete in Porsche cars .
Winning at Spa and being on the banking at Daytona racing a Porsche is fun ...
No new Porsche no problem can live without that .... yes DD is now a Ferrari
Edited by hunter 66 on Monday 4th December 20:56
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