Jump from 986 to 996 C2

[jakesmith]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Talking in basic factual terms, if you enter a corner in the wet, for example, imagine you misjudged it slightly as can happen from time to time & are carrying too much speed, the C2 will oversteer before the 4S does right? Thus making the 4S more confidence inspiring, safer, and easier to hoon in the wet for the average guy. Maybe that isn't your thing as it comes with disadvantages too but not everyone will see it that way. I believe the 4S also has better weight distribution due to the mass & position of the diff but that would be a bit nuanced for my driving ability to pick up on of course

[jakesmith]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

OK that's interesting, so the 4WD gives you faster exit speeds in low grip situations, and presumably from a standing start. It was very easy to launch.
Surely the notably huge wide wheels on the 4S help with traction through corners though right?
The C2 has a reputation for the front end lightening / bobbing under acceleration, according to what I gather reading this forum.
Surely 50kg of diff over the front axle makes a difference here. Not that I would notice it in all likelihood.

[n12maser]

Don't pick a C4 for safer cornering in the wet, that's more down to tyres & driving appropriately for the conditions. 4wd advantages are in acceleration from standing start. As Cmoose says, you'll get loads of natural traction in a 911 due to all the weight out the back, should be much better in the wet than your boxster experience.

Up to and including the 964 there was a pretty huge difference in steering feel between the 2wd and 4wd. But from what I've heard that difference was minimal in later varients so c2 Vs C4 became less of an issue.

[jakesmith]

Ok cool. Interesting reading chaps and good to know that if I go back to a 911 of some type in the future I will experience the same phenomenal traction in a C2S or C2, as that was one of the things I miss from my old car and there is a decent cost saving vs the 4S

[jonny996]

I've had a C2 Tip & a C4 man, so not a true comparison & the gear box made far more difference than the 2/4wd issue but at present I don't think the C4 feels sluggish or diluted to me, in saying that I also acknowledge that my driving skills over the past 15 years have vastly reduced due to basically sitting in the family car (modern cars need no input)

[Dammit]

It's a slip then grip setup with a viscous centre diff - so under normal conditions a C4 is 5% 4wd and 95% 2wd/a C2, it's only when traction is lost at the rear that the fronts come in (with up to 40% of the available power).

[jonny996]

so not something I will hopefully encounter very often on the public road & as I never plan to track it , then very rarely.

[TwinExit]

O'rily folks??

These are 20 year old cars, and people on are debating whether 4WD will give them the 'edge' on some strawman B-road battle against modern machinery?

Classic cars should be enjoyed for what they are, not about boosting your driving god status against other untrained driving gods, it's a big fish in small pond mentality.

[jakesmith]

TwinExit said:

O'rily folks??

These are 20 year old cars, and people on are debating whether 4WD will give them the 'edge' on some strawman B-road battle against modern machinery?

Classic cars should be enjoyed for what they are, not about boosting your driving god status against other untrained driving gods, it's a big fish in small pond mentality.

I don’t recognise the situation you are representing in your post? Just saying the 4 is slightly faster in the wet

[jonny996]

jakesmith said:

I don’t recognise the situation you are representing in your post? Just saying the 4 is slightly faster in the wet

But Jake you miss 1 vital issue, most of these 20 year old cars are toys driven by middle age man that have other cars to drive for anything other than a sunny Sunday ride out, so they will very rarely see rain.

[Fast Bug]

jonny996 said:

But Jake you miss 1 vital issue, most of these 20 year old cars are toys driven by middle age man that have other cars to drive for anything other than a sunny Sunday ride out, so they will very rarely see rain.

Mine sees rain, frost, ice and snow. It probably sees more use in the winter than it does at the moment as I need to sort my a/c out. It's too hot and the kids moan about the wind when the windows are open. Bloody kids

[ooid]

I wouldn't consider C4 as a safety-net. A few years ago I was in Istanbul for a holiday. A local famous chap crashed his 997 C4s into a police car. One of the officers died in the accident, this was a major thing in press I remember, as the young driver-chap walked away free thanks to his family connections. I saw some video footage how he ended up on a wet busy urban road, it was pure idiotic really.

[jakesmith]

ooid said:

I wouldn't consider C4 as a safety-net. A few years ago I was in Istanbul for a holiday. A local famous chap crashed his 997 C4s into a police car. One of the officers died in the accident, this was a major thing in press I remember, as the young driver-chap walked away free thanks to his family connections. I saw some video footage how he ended up on a wet busy urban road, it was pure idiotic really.

Devil's advocate but you're making a conclusion there from a very small data set!

[EGTE]

https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/do-you-need-an-...

[nebpor]

I owned a 1997 Boxster 8 years ago, before moving to Oz. Now I'm back I've got a 1999 996 C2.

The Boxster felt more nimble, there is no doubt about it. The little 2.5 engine sang away behind your ear and it was quick enough in the "real world" to have fun.

The 996 feels heavier and grippier, but that big engine sounds glorious and has a real thrust the Boxster never had. It also feels harder to get the best out of it, which is fun in it's own way.

Given the 6 year gap between ownership, my memory might be cloudy, but not that cloudy.

TBH I'd have both at the same time - they are different enough!

EDIT: I must add to that - I have two kids aged 2.5 and 5.5. The 911 means we have family days out at the weekend in it. It's a very practical car in a way a Boxster/Cayman can never be. It ferries stuff to the dump etc!

Edited by nebpor on Tuesday 10th July 13:47

[Ahonen]

TwinExit said:

O'rily folks??

These are 20 year old cars, and people on are debating whether 4WD will give them the 'edge' on some strawman B-road battle against modern machinery?

Classic cars should be enjoyed for what they are, not about boosting your driving god status against other untrained driving gods, it's a big fish in small pond mentality.

Exactly. My C2 is absolutely fine in the rain, but then I'm not trying to be a hero in slippery conditions because I'm well aware of my own limitations. I'd love to know what percentage of drivers would really, honestly, react correctly if their 4WD went sideways and apply more power to help the front drag the car straight. I'm sure many say they would, but I bet bet most wouldn't.

Heck, when Nigel Mansell famously crashed a Ford Mondeo touring car at Donington in '93 the accident started on the exit of the Old Hairpin when the tail came out and Nigel instinctively backed off the throttle because that's what years of RWD cars had taught him - what he should have done in the FWD car was apply more throttle to pull the car straight. If it can happen to a world champion then it can easily happen to Dave from accounts, no matter how ace he thinks he is.

[skinny]

Ahonen said:

Exactly. My C2 is absolutely fine in the rain, but then I'm not trying to be a hero in slippery conditions because I'm well aware of my own limitations. I'd love to know what percentage of drivers would really, honestly, react correctly if their 4WD went sideways and apply more power to help the front drag the car straight. I'm sure many say they would, but I bet bet most wouldn't.

I've not had my c4 sideways but have had both my mx5 (rwd) and skid pan car (fwd) very sideways, so know what to do in those situations.
Are you saying the c4 would react more like a fwd in a skid and you'd need to power on to drag it through? Even though it only sends between 5 and 40% to the front? Not saying you're wrong, it just sounds a little counter intuitive

[griffter]

skinny said:

I've not had my c4 sideways but have had both my mx5 (rwd) and skid pan car (fwd) very sideways, so know what to do in those situations.
Are you saying the c4 would react more like a fwd in a skid and you'd need to power on to drag it through? Even though it only sends between 5 and 40% to the front? Not saying you're wrong, it just sounds a little counter intuitive

I’ve had my C4 sideways, and spun it, at Castle Combe. Each time it was lifting off on corner entry and the subsequent weight transfer that caused the rear to lose traction. I’m sure a driving god would have counter-steered, applied just the right amount of throttle and executed a balletic drift, but I’m not that good. I don’t think the front wheels also being driven made any difference to the loss of traction at the rear. They might have made a difference to the steering angle and throttle needed to control the slide, but I didn’t get that far.
I think throttle on is more about redressing the weight balance to the rear to restore traction and corner balance, but also driving from the front would surely affect the control inputs necessary and be different to a C2?

Edited by griffter on Friday 13th July 08:57

[ATM]

Troutman said:

That's why I want an early 996, a bit retro and analogue.

I don't want 4WD but if the right car came up... I want the most simple car with the least things to go wrong.
Would prefer aircon delete but they all came with it didn't they.?

I bought my 1998 996 C2 in Feb 17. If you want analogue and a bit retro then get one. I didn't consider a C4 because I wanted the lightest one they made. Now I've got one I probably realise that's buyer madness from reading too much info about them. I went for an early car because I read that the engines are less risky compared to all other 996 and 997.1.

Coming from a 986 you should feel very familiar in the 996. Steering feel and pedal feel and seat position exactly the same. I had my 986 15 years ago so can't really remember it well. I remember being a bit cramped leg room wise in the 986 where the 996 gains a couple cm with the seat base right back and it can still be angled back further as there is no bulk head preventing this.

The balance and rotation in a 986 felt so right to me as they feel like they pivot round the centre. The 996 feels a bit bizarre by comparison because you are always aware of the weight moving around at the back. And it's a long way back or feels it to me. It is this which makes it completely different to everything else. It defines the car for me. I wasn't as aware of it in my 997. Maybe because my 997 was very new and my 996 has 20 years under it's belt or maybe that's just how they are.

I've changed from 18 wheels to 17 inch wheels on my 996 and I'm not really sure if I can tell the difference. It has so much grip that even in the wet if you throw the wheel around you will come out of the seat and end up on the handbrake. The only time I've managed a slide was when I hit some black ice. The rest of the time it can almost feel too planted - to me. I have never thought I'd prefer or need 4wd except preferring the shape of the 996 c4s maybe.

The feedback is constant which you should understand coming from your 986 although if you've not driven a modern porsche with an electric steering rack you might not realise just how good the 986 is in terms of feedback.

Having the 996 has made me realise just how good the 986 was / is. Both cars are good and it might sound obvious but it's just the engine position which is different and the way this weight affects the car's balance. If you want to try a 996 I'd say keep hold of your 986 for now and see how you get on with both. You might miss the open top in the 996 - I know I do - and you might decide the rear engine layout isn't all that.

[Troutman]

That's great information, I hear what you're saying about the weight of the engine but like you and lots of folk say, there is still heaps of grip..like the 986.
I'm still looking and missed a 28k mile C4 Gen1 last week on Autotrader, it was only on for an evening and someone snapped it up for a song.
Did anyone else see it? Silver with split rims I think, very nice condition from near Birmingham.