Which 991.2 GT Car Be a High Value Collectible? GT2 RS?
Discussion
Taffy66 said:
I actually loved the 3.8L 991.1 GT3 more than the gen 1 4L RS engine because the top end was better IMO..Apart from some engine issues and a paucity of torque at less than 5K revs, when on song it was incredible.
I know what you mean. The last 1k Rpm on the 3.8 991 GT3 was something very special. Have a look at this from 40 Secs in. Oh, and turn the speakers up......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dss44VBDN8
APOLO1 said:
I know what you mean. The last 1k Rpm on the 3.8 991 GT3 was something very special. Have a look at this from 40 Secs in. Oh, and turn the speakers up......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dss44VBDN8
Sounds epic. Don’t think that last 500rpm particularly blunted the Gen1RS, and of course, 9k is now accessible in the Gen2 :-)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dss44VBDN8
That noise is a huge chunk of the experience for me, which is why no turbo car can get close, regardless of how fast it might be between the bends.
I have been following the thread with interest.
I have driven all the cars Gen 2 GT cars, GT3, GT3RS and GT2RS. I have a GT3, but if I could pick one there is no doubt about it, the 2RS is by far the best car.
When I drove it at Silverstone it was flying past the GT3RS cars and made my GT3 feel like a high revving Ford Fiesta, as a matter of fact when I got back in the GT3 it felt like the noise was great but the car was just not accelerating. I was gutted. I hope the new GT3 is turbo charged, It will make it a better/faster car!!
As regards to values, in 2020, two years time, it will start again with GT3 and GT3RS cars, but there will not be another GT2RS for another 7 years. So GT2 values will go up over the next couple of years.
I can confirm, in my opinion, the best car that Porsche has made, or that I have been lucky enough to drive, is the GT2RS.
If I win the lottery this Wednesday, I will employ a Chef, a Personal Trainer and buy a GT2RS to do a track day every week in.
Happy Days!!
I have driven all the cars Gen 2 GT cars, GT3, GT3RS and GT2RS. I have a GT3, but if I could pick one there is no doubt about it, the 2RS is by far the best car.
When I drove it at Silverstone it was flying past the GT3RS cars and made my GT3 feel like a high revving Ford Fiesta, as a matter of fact when I got back in the GT3 it felt like the noise was great but the car was just not accelerating. I was gutted. I hope the new GT3 is turbo charged, It will make it a better/faster car!!
As regards to values, in 2020, two years time, it will start again with GT3 and GT3RS cars, but there will not be another GT2RS for another 7 years. So GT2 values will go up over the next couple of years.
I can confirm, in my opinion, the best car that Porsche has made, or that I have been lucky enough to drive, is the GT2RS.
If I win the lottery this Wednesday, I will employ a Chef, a Personal Trainer and buy a GT2RS to do a track day every week in.
Happy Days!!
hunter 66 said:
Agree the .2 3 RS seems to be nicely balanced ( mine still on stock set up , but will make some changes ) even on the Dunlops which despite the press do not have the same grip ( are harder compound for sure ) . Which on clear laps is fine as you can carry the speed more but on busy Track days the lack of 6-700 bhp comes into play as you can only pass on the left and everyone hugs the LHS of the track from half way down the straight . Any way irrelevant as not a race and only running safely .
Instability on the Ring is natural when pushing hence why the good guys are good and brave .... and I cannot do it .
Hi Pete, you and Paul H nearly 60 how did that happen! Those ladies from Bad N be too young for you now!Instability on the Ring is natural when pushing hence why the good guys are good and brave .... and I cannot do it .
Edited by hunter 66 on Saturday 8th September 11:47
I just sold my 991RS.1 after 10k miles, and 20 track days ended up with 2.75 negative on the front 2.50 negative on the rear, full stiff rear arb, one off full soft on the front with a tad of toe out on the front and tad in on the rear and it was superb. Also a bit of rake to get the weight on the nose. Ditch the front stone guards that screw into the arches and stops most of the rubbing, great on track and still fine for the street:
haha yes , would be young fresh uns now ......
Spoke to SM at JZM about adjustments which about what you suggested , just a bit less as needs more work to get more than 2.40 on the fronts .
But I think the .2 is much stiffer so maybe down a few mm in the front and less camber adjustment ( to the max available ) and as you say a small toe in/out adjustment .
Plus not sure about the Dunlops.
AnywayBeers for sure
Spoke to SM at JZM about adjustments which about what you suggested , just a bit less as needs more work to get more than 2.40 on the fronts .
But I think the .2 is much stiffer so maybe down a few mm in the front and less camber adjustment ( to the max available ) and as you say a small toe in/out adjustment .
Plus not sure about the Dunlops.
AnywayBeers for sure
Edited by hunter 66 on Monday 10th September 19:15
isaldiri said:
Taffy66 said:
Footsoldier has experienced issues with his .2RS on the Ring in terms of instability..He's a very experienced ex Racing driver who really knows what he's talking about..The problem was attributed to the extra 50KG over the .3RS which was all hanging over the rear axle.This had a rather surprisingly disproportionate effect on the f/r weight distribution.None of this was solved by altering geo settings and only removing weight would solve it..
His .2RS has less weight over the nose(no LEDs or Front lift) and has the steel cage fitted instead of the Titanium one.This combination would have a detrimental effect on the f/r balance compared to AndrewD's and Apolo's .2RSs.In fact a couple of years ago a well known american car magazine instrumented tested two different 991.1 GT3 RSs..One was much lighter than the other as it had 20kgs+ less weight adding options on the front of the car..This resulted in the heavier optioned car being much better balanced resulting in better handling as a result..
Footsoldiers findings echo that what 'Sportauto's road test found when they tested the .2RS..It seems all variants of the 991 GT cars are overly sensitive to variations in their f/r weight distribution.
I'm not sure where you got that he experienced instability at the ring in his car. Most of what he's talking about is the behaviour of the car on a GP style circuit (iirc car overall too soft at the limit, certainly before he changed to the KWs and a lot of weight off the rear). His .2RS has less weight over the nose(no LEDs or Front lift) and has the steel cage fitted instead of the Titanium one.This combination would have a detrimental effect on the f/r balance compared to AndrewD's and Apolo's .2RSs.In fact a couple of years ago a well known american car magazine instrumented tested two different 991.1 GT3 RSs..One was much lighter than the other as it had 20kgs+ less weight adding options on the front of the car..This resulted in the heavier optioned car being much better balanced resulting in better handling as a result..
Footsoldiers findings echo that what 'Sportauto's road test found when they tested the .2RS..It seems all variants of the 991 GT cars are overly sensitive to variations in their f/r weight distribution.
The sportauto tested 2rs was 80kg heavier at the rear than the 3rs (similar spec weissach cars), overall 70kg heavier. Not sure how you got 50kg only over the rear. LEDs and lift I'd suggest are unlikely to change the weight distribution of the car significantly from 37/63 as well.
Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 8th September 10:43
First of all, I’d agree that the 2RS is an epic car, and ironically it’s best on the road. Dial the tyre pressures in correctly, and it’s an absolute weapon. Of course, like all of them, you risk your licence (or freedom!), but at the limits you can safely reach on the road, I don’t think I’ve been in a more exhilarating car in terms of back road pace. (others like the R are more “fun”,more of the time).
On a circuit, then yes, it is much harder or drive and not as well balanced as a 3RS. There is a weight difference of c50kg, but that seems to be distributed about 80kg heavier at rear and 30kg lighter at the front . Combined with the power and torque going through the rear wheels, and also the soft damping, there is a lot of weight transfer, and then trying to corner and put 700bhp through rear wheels at same time. Makes it unstable under braking and you have to concentrate on the way out, not just mash throttle
It take a while to work out, and you can drive round it - make use of the power on the way out, so make sure it’s settled on the way in, instead of being able to sort out mid-corner in a 3RS.
The 3RS is a more resolved package, and better handling for sure, but not sure that makes it a better “driver’s car”, as it is relatively easy to make it go fast, the 2RS has hidden depths, and takes more working out,
I think it’s a more rewarding car to own and exploit over time, though can’t deny that the risk of binning it on a track day is much higher and maybe not needed!
I’ve done 3500 miles in mine, and taking it to Spa on Tuesday for 3rd track day. Pretty dialled into it now, so going to really push hard (and get some video...)
Back on values - I’ve done loads of miles in all of them; have done 9000 miles and on 3rd set of tyres on my R.
The R is the best all-round experience that anyone who drives one can feel, and will hold value the most.
I think there are too many of the others, including the 2RS and there is really very little difference between all of the 3s to make one a star investment.
The 2RS is not what a lot of buyers were expecting, and It does take a lot to uncover its talents, which is why I think values are softening as more bail out (as well as the market). It might come back strong, but depends on numbers.
The ‘value’ car for me right now would be a LHD .1 GT3RS with a Manthey set up on it. Might not be a good investment, but will be the most fun for your fast depreciating £.
Edited by footsoldier on Sunday 16th September 19:57
footsoldier said:
Back on values - I’ve done loads of miles in all of them; have done 9000 miles and on 3rd set of tyres on my R.
The R is the best all-round experience that anyone who drives one can feel, and will hold value the most.
I think there are too many of the others, including the 2RS and there is really very little difference between all of the 3s to make one a star investment.
The 2RS is not what a lot of buyers were expecting, and It does take a lot to uncover its talents, which is why I think values are softening as more bail out (as well as the market). It might come back strong, but depends on numbers.
The ‘value’ car for me right now would be a LHD .1 GT3RS with a Manthey set up on it. Might not be a good investment, but will be the most fun for your fast depreciating £.
I agree re the 991R - it's a genuine limited edition small production car that really is something special - not just a parts bin 'special' like a Sport Classic for example. Only thing is (IMO) for the short-medium term it has peaked, but will come back and I think it will be a wise investment for those that hold onto them. Have to say though, at today's prices (£300k) I'd probably opt for a LHD 997 GT3 4.0 RS - has to become the most sought-after water-cooled 911 of all time?The R is the best all-round experience that anyone who drives one can feel, and will hold value the most.
I think there are too many of the others, including the 2RS and there is really very little difference between all of the 3s to make one a star investment.
The 2RS is not what a lot of buyers were expecting, and It does take a lot to uncover its talents, which is why I think values are softening as more bail out (as well as the market). It might come back strong, but depends on numbers.
The ‘value’ car for me right now would be a LHD .1 GT3RS with a Manthey set up on it. Might not be a good investment, but will be the most fun for your fast depreciating £.
footsoldier said:
The ‘value’ car for me right now would be a LHD .1 GT3RS with a Manthey set up on it. Might not be a good investment, but will be the most fun for your fast depreciating £.
I still think the Manual 991.2 is king, if you are after the most fun for your fast depreciating £ :-) then do a Manthey set up on that.1st GT3 since the 997.2 RS to have a manual Box and as not many people ordered manual also the rarest.
Porsche911R said:
I still think the Manual 991.2 is king, if you are after the most fun for your fast depreciating £ :-) then do a Manthey set up on that.
1st GT3 since the 997.2 RS to have a manual Box and as not many people ordered manual also the rarest.
When you sell yours let me know as a fellow driver I'm sure you will being selling at a fair price for the right reasons and not for profit 1st GT3 since the 997.2 RS to have a manual Box and as not many people ordered manual also the rarest.
Geoff39GL said:
When you sell yours let me know as a fellow driver I'm sure you will being selling at a fair price for the right reasons and not for profit
The issue with a lot of these cars is a lot of people paid backward overs, so list for most was not list as it cost me £20k overs in real money.Add to which my car is VERY highly speced it owes me £155k ! I doubt I will make on it at that, so if things stay how they are I will be selling at a loss.
Luckily I do feel the latest GT3 is worth that over say a Lambo or Ferrari still, but it was a hard battle this time round, and I won't be playing the games again as many won't next time. Too many unhappy Porsche customers about who have already switched brands.
I am hopeful it will hold it's value though as imo it's a very special car with no other brands making anything like it now.
Do you not feel you will get a new GT4 slot ?
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 17th September 09:48
Porsche911R said:
The issue with a lot of these cars is a lot of people paid backward overs, so list for most was not list as it cost me £20k overs in real money.
Add to which my car is VERY highly speced it owes me £155k ! I doubt I will make on it at that, so if things stay how they are I will be selling at a loss.
Do you not feel you will get a new GT4 slot ?
Very hopeful but fancied a manual GT3 as I thought it would be as close to the RS as I can get.Add to which my car is VERY highly speced it owes me £155k ! I doubt I will make on it at that, so if things stay how they are I will be selling at a loss.
Do you not feel you will get a new GT4 slot ?
Geoff39GL said:
Very hopeful but fancied a manual GT3 as I thought it would be as close to the RS as I can get.
Hard to compare, some say the new cars better, some don't, My 1st idea was flip for the 997.2 RS but after owning it, I could not swap to the old car even if it may be safer money and the 997.2 RS looks the dogs b
ks :-) . I do think the new 991.2 is a big jump over the 991.1 cars for interaction and feel etc I still cannot really fault it. Yes it has 3 minor issues but these are nothing like the GT4 issues I lived with and very fixable.But it's this new 4.0 engine, it is mind blowing, one would have to have a screw loose to swap that for a Megzer !
Timing a Flat shift at 8.5k in a manual GT3 is something any PDK RS owner will never get to do, and it's magic. (I have not done this in mine yet, but got the hang of it with PEC's manual car on their private track ) I might have to fit some race LED gear change lights if I do track mine.
I am blown away by it, as are a few past 997 RS owners I see on here.
But to point out the 3 tiny issues I have with the car as no car is perfect and I try to be as honest as possible here goes.
1: Exhaust noise, funny as it sounds as it does get on song >7k the PSE switch does s
t all really, below 7k my GT4 sounded better ! (I have ordered a Ti bypass pipe to get round that) but oem at lower revs the GT3 is not a great sounding car imo. No wonder sharkwerks sell a lot of kit.2: ****** geo's it needs a good geo I guess it has to be set up for ave Joe road only use, A bit like my GT4 when you go slower you think WOW the car grips and grips and has no signs of under steer, then when you really push the geo is lacking big time. Just frustration I need to find time and spend £300, but it's more the day out my life than the money. Yes you can easy drive round understeer and the GT3 is so throttle responsive it's scary with lift off how the car tucks in, but I want MORE from it ,I need more constant max G's, so it needs more front camber for me and to be better balanced out, as I say slower speeds ,I don't mean slow, I just mean slower than mental speeds :-) the GT3 as is, will be ok for 80% people stock geo.
3: loudness inside the car (not exhaust, but road noise), OK so it adds to the drama but my ears ring after long trips, I might have to wear ear plugs if I do a euro hoon ;-) this is not like a 991.1 GT3, again every thing just seems more hardcore in the 991.2 GT3.
So while all 3 are easy to fix, I cannot now wait to get the top 2 items done ASAP. I'll post some vids of the Ti by pass unit once done vs oem.
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 17th September 10:20
I think my 981 Spyder sound better than my GT3 at sane speeds as long as you don't press the Sports exhaust button.
In terms of geo i've yet to find conclusive settings i can just dial in straight off as i don't have the time or inclination to play with the settings.I'd also love to fit a Ti exhaust to improve the sound.
However i'm pretty confident on getting a new gen 2 RS next Spring, which is what i've always wanted in the first place..My PDK GT3 is an amazing machine but i bought it as a stepping stone to a WP RS.
If i intended to keep it long term i'd have gone for a manual and erased the RS from my brain.
ETA The Dunlops on mine produce much less road roar compared to the Michelins..A lot of US owners have said that the N1 Dunlops are much better in the wet and cold although they don't last as long on the track .
In terms of geo i've yet to find conclusive settings i can just dial in straight off as i don't have the time or inclination to play with the settings.I'd also love to fit a Ti exhaust to improve the sound.
However i'm pretty confident on getting a new gen 2 RS next Spring, which is what i've always wanted in the first place..My PDK GT3 is an amazing machine but i bought it as a stepping stone to a WP RS.
If i intended to keep it long term i'd have gone for a manual and erased the RS from my brain.
ETA The Dunlops on mine produce much less road roar compared to the Michelins..A lot of US owners have said that the N1 Dunlops are much better in the wet and cold although they don't last as long on the track .
Edited by Taffy66 on Monday 17th September 10:46
throt said:
The last 2krpm leading up to 9krpm was more epic on the gen1. But you wouldn’t choose it over the extra pull the gen2 has.
Also, you may as well change up at 8500rpm in the gen2.
even more so in the Gen 1 as it drops power, the gen 2 keeps power to 9k but max at 8250Also, you may as well change up at 8500rpm in the gen2.
very handy on track if you cannot get a change in you can to goto 9k, it's not just for giggles.
Porsche911R said:
I am blown away by it, as are a few past 997 RS owners I see on here.
But to point out the 3 tiny issues I have with the car as no car is perfect and I try to be as honest as possible here goes.
1: Exhaust noise, funny as it sounds as it does get on song >7k the PSE switch does st all really, below 7k my GT4 sounded better ! (I have ordered a Ti bypass pipe to get round that) but oem at lower revs the GT3 is not a great sounding car imo. No wonder sharkwerks sell a lot of kit.
2: ****** geo's it needs a good geo I guess it has to be set up for ave Joe road only use, A bit like my GT4 when you go slower you think WOW the car grips and grips and has no signs of under steer, then when you really push the geo is lacking big time. Just frustration I need to find time and spend £300, but it's more the day out my life than the money. Yes you can easy drive round understeer and the GT3 is so throttle responsive it's scary with lift off how the car tucks in, but I want MORE from it ,I need more constant max G's, so it needs more front camber for me and to be better balanced out, as I say slower speeds ,I don't mean slow, I just mean slower than mental speeds :-) the GT3 as is, will be ok for 80% people stock geo.
3: loudness inside the car (not exhaust, but road noise), OK so it adds to the drama but my ears ring after long trips, I might have to wear ear plugs if I do a euro hoon ;-) this is not like a 991.1 GT3, again every thing just seems more hardcore in the 991.2 GT3.
While I think the GT4 is a great car and am hopeful of a new car when released (having just bought a 718 Boxster S to help the process) but having missed out every time so far and having moved from Nottingham to Devon we will have to wait and see. The GT4 I have always felt is strangled, held back which I guess is to keep the car below the 911's and it seems from all the hype the same will apply to a 4 litre GT4 which will be a shame but understandable. But to point out the 3 tiny issues I have with the car as no car is perfect and I try to be as honest as possible here goes.
1: Exhaust noise, funny as it sounds as it does get on song >7k the PSE switch does s
t all really, below 7k my GT4 sounded better ! (I have ordered a Ti bypass pipe to get round that) but oem at lower revs the GT3 is not a great sounding car imo. No wonder sharkwerks sell a lot of kit.2: ****** geo's it needs a good geo I guess it has to be set up for ave Joe road only use, A bit like my GT4 when you go slower you think WOW the car grips and grips and has no signs of under steer, then when you really push the geo is lacking big time. Just frustration I need to find time and spend £300, but it's more the day out my life than the money. Yes you can easy drive round understeer and the GT3 is so throttle responsive it's scary with lift off how the car tucks in, but I want MORE from it ,I need more constant max G's, so it needs more front camber for me and to be better balanced out, as I say slower speeds ,I don't mean slow, I just mean slower than mental speeds :-) the GT3 as is, will be ok for 80% people stock geo.
3: loudness inside the car (not exhaust, but road noise), OK so it adds to the drama but my ears ring after long trips, I might have to wear ear plugs if I do a euro hoon ;-) this is not like a 991.1 GT3, again every thing just seems more hardcore in the 991.2 GT3.
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 17th September 10:20
The manual GT3 offers that performance and from what you have said has that linear acceleration throughout the rev range similar to the RS which with proper use of the left hand and foot gives that total involvement. I fear the new GT4 will have that held back feel.
Exhaust noise in the GT4 is so nice as it sounds real and not synthetic, I am not sure what the emissions regs will do to that but I guess it can only be worse.
Geo - As you know I enjoy track days, but for the fun of driving the car and using its performance and not for getting the best lap time possible, the standard GT4's ability exceeds my skill so I'm sure a standard GT3 out of the box would be fine. I think I remember you saying when out with me at Donnington that I was only faster than you on 1 corner so slower than mental is fine for me being one of the 80%.
Noise - I found the road noise in the RS and GT4 similar but my 991.1GT3 was much more civilised I quite like the noise as it is part of the emotion even though its only down to the size of the tyres and lack of sound deadening.
I think overall I would be happy with a new GT4 if offered but would like to try a manual GT3 do Silverstone still do sessions where you get a bit of track time and a lot of road time ?
As we are doing a road trip to Switzerland next week to do some of the passes with 3 other couples (all GT3's) I may well come back and wonder why I am still looking for the next best thing as the GT4 is a great road car that you have to drive to get the most out of it and I'm hoping I will find my motoring nirvana .
That will be another 2000 miles (lets not talk about what that does to the value) making 12500 miles in 18months.
Edited by Geoff39GL on Monday 17th September 11:21
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