Which 991.2 GT Car Be a High Value Collectible? GT2 RS?

[hunter 66]

Taffy66 said:

Footsoldier has experienced issues with his .2RS on the Ring in terms of instability..He's a very experienced ex Racing driver who really knows what he's talking about..The problem was attributed to the extra 50KG over the .3RS which was all hanging over the rear axle.This had a rather surprisingly disproportionate effect on the f/r weight distribution.None of this was solved by altering geo settings and only removing weight would solve it..
His .2RS has less weight over the nose(no LEDs or Front lift) and has the steel cage fitted instead of the Titanium one.This combination would have a detrimental effect on the f/r balance compared to AndrewD's and Apolo's .2RSs.In fact a couple of years ago a well known american car magazine instrumented tested two different 991.1 GT3 RSs..One was much lighter than the other as it had 20kgs+ less weight adding options on the front of the car..This resulted in the heavier optioned car being much better balanced resulting in better handling as a result..
Footsoldiers findings echo that what 'Sportauto's road test found when they tested the .2RS..It seems all variants of the 991 GT cars are overly sensitive to variations in their f/r weight distribution.

Taffy , having done many endurance events in 911's , the amount of fuel on board always has an effect on the handling , mainly effecting the turn in and mid corner understeer , so need to help steer with the throttle . That is what I specced cage delete , as not planning to race it ( no scrutineer ) not needed for track days . Regards

Edited by hunter 66 on Saturday 8th September 10:24

[APOLO1]

Taffy66 said:

Footsoldier has experienced issues with his .2RS on the Ring in terms of instability..He's a very experienced ex Racing driver who really knows what he's talking about..The problem was attributed to the extra 50KG over the .3RS which was all hanging over the rear axle.This had a rather surprisingly disproportionate effect on the f/r weight distribution.None of this was solved by altering geo settings and only removing weight would solve it..
His .2RS has less weight over the nose(no LEDs or Front lift) and has the steel cage fitted instead of the Titanium one.This combination would have a detrimental effect on the f/r balance compared to AndrewD's and Apolo's .2RSs.In fact a couple of years ago a well known american car magazine instrumented tested two different 991.1 GT3 RSs..One was much lighter than the other as it had 20kgs+ less weight adding options on the front of the car..This resulted in the heavier optioned car being much better balanced resulting in better handling as a result..
Footsoldiers findings echo that what 'Sportauto's road test found when they tested the .2RS..It seems all variants of the 991 GT cars are overly sensitive to variations in their f/r weight distribution.

Interesting point with regard to ride height and weight on the front. Aside to more camber front and rear, last week I had lowered both front and rear ride height. To achieve more rake on the front. Also I run with 25-30kgs of water for the charge cooler and about another 7-10ks of track kit in the front.

[Taffy66]

APOLO1 said:

Interesting point with regard to ride height and weight on the front. Aside to more camber front and rear, last week I had lowered both front and rear ride height. To achieve more rake on the front. Also I run with 25-30kgs of water for the charge cooler and about another 7-10ks of track kit in the front.

It makes all the difference..Footsoldier will be reading this at some point and give a more detailed explanation..

[JulierPass]

Porsche911R said:

you are Chris Harris and I claim my £5 :-)

regarding list, people said that about the GT4, it still selling at least £10k over list for the nice spec cars even with >5k miles on them
low miles 991.1 GT3 are STILL OVER LIST !!! and GT4 are flying out at the right spec.


on the 991.2 it's impossible to say, cars are way over list and selling, I know 3 new owners who paid £25k overs, so try and buy one at list, people do post funny things.

Going forward regarding values, no one knows and it 100% depends on the next models engine.

But 991.1 would have to be £90k for the 991.2 to be list and top spec 991.1 are still >£10k overs and 5 years old for low mile examples !!!

I doubt we will see a 991.2 GT3 at list esp when people are paying £85k for GT4's

Edited by Porsche911R on Friday 7th September 09:40

There is a massive difference between what cars are priced at and what they actually sell for. And this gap has widened of late. Look at recent auction results, and if you need further proof, ring around the likes of JZM et al and try and get them to buy a 991.2 GT3, GT4, 991.1 GT3 or any other GT car off you. Even OPC's are overstocked on GT product at the moment. Things aren't selling and 95% of what's advertised is SOR, largely due to Ambitious owners taking cars down from sale when they can't get the inflated price for them.

Open your eyes, the writing is on the wall, and about bloody time. It will be great to flush out the speculators and get back to threads about modifying these cars and making them better drivers tools.

[isaldiri]

Taffy66 said:

Footsoldier has experienced issues with his .2RS on the Ring in terms of instability..He's a very experienced ex Racing driver who really knows what he's talking about..The problem was attributed to the extra 50KG over the .3RS which was all hanging over the rear axle.This had a rather surprisingly disproportionate effect on the f/r weight distribution.None of this was solved by altering geo settings and only removing weight would solve it..
His .2RS has less weight over the nose(no LEDs or Front lift) and has the steel cage fitted instead of the Titanium one.This combination would have a detrimental effect on the f/r balance compared to AndrewD's and Apolo's .2RSs.In fact a couple of years ago a well known american car magazine instrumented tested two different 991.1 GT3 RSs..One was much lighter than the other as it had 20kgs+ less weight adding options on the front of the car..This resulted in the heavier optioned car being much better balanced resulting in better handling as a result..
Footsoldiers findings echo that what 'Sportauto's road test found when they tested the .2RS..It seems all variants of the 991 GT cars are overly sensitive to variations in their f/r weight distribution.

I'm not sure where you got that he experienced instability at the ring in his car. Most of what he's talking about is the behaviour of the car on a GP style circuit (iirc car overall too soft at the limit, certainly before he changed to the KWs and a lot of weight off the rear).

The sportauto tested 2rs was 80kg heavier at the rear than the 3rs (similar spec weissach cars), overall 70kg heavier. Not sure how you got 50kg only over the rear. LEDs and lift I'd suggest are unlikely to change the weight distribution of the car significantly from 37/63 as well.

Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 8th September 10:43

[Porsche911R]

One only has to look at the amazing 6.56 3RS lap time to see how agility makes up for a 250bhp difference.

But it's interesting to talk about and that 2RS weight over the rear is a lot more than I expected.

[isaldiri]

APOLO1 said:

As to which is the better driving handling car. Think that's very subjective.

That's my point I guess. The 2rs undoubtedly is the faster car on track but the .2 3rs should have an equally good claim at being the 'best ever 911' I'd have thought given it's a further refined iteration of the 2rs chassis wise.

[APOLO1]

isaldiri said:

That's my point I guess. The 2rs undoubtedly is the faster car on track but the .2 3rs should have an equally good claim at being the 'best ever 911' I'd have thought given it's a further refined iteration of the 2rs chassis wise.

I think it all depends on what you are after in car. I agree that the 2RS can not match the throttle response of the 3RS in the corners. But as can be seen though EVOs test, it is faster than the 3RS through apex to exit on both the slow and fast corners.

For me the 2RS is much more of an all round event to drive on both road and track than the 3RS.

[Taffy66]

isaldiri said:

I'm not sure where you got that he experienced instability at the ring in his car. Most of what he's talking about is the behaviour of the car on a GP style circuit (iirc car overall too soft at the limit, certainly before he changed to the KWs and a lot of weight off the rear).

The sportauto tested 2rs was 80kg heavier at the rear than the 3rs (similar spec weissach cars), overall 70kg heavier. Not sure how you got 50kg only over the rear. LEDs and lift I'd suggest are unlikely to change the weight distribution of the car significantly from 37/63 as well.

Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 8th September 10:43

IIRC Footsoldier's .2RS weight distribution was about 90kg more over the rear axle and they reckon 40 -50Kg actual weight(not weight distribution) was attributed to the extra weight of the engine/ancillaries.All this resulted in the weight distribution varying from 40/60 on .3RS and 36/64 on the .2RS.
So basically the extra actual 50Kg weight increase behind the rear axle resulted in a disproportionate 90Kg extra weight distribution(not actual weight) over the rear axle..Its important to differentiate the between how actual extra weight affects weight distribution disproportionally.This resulted in a slower turn in on the .2RS compared to the .3RS although the former gains more from the apex to the end of the next straight.

Edited by Taffy66 on Saturday 8th September 11:38

[Porsche911R]

APOLO1 said:

I think it all depends on what you are after in car. I agree that the 2RS can not match the throttle response of the 3RS in the corners. But as can be seen though EVOs test, it is faster than the 3RS through apex to exit on both the slow and fast corners.

For me the 2RS is much more of an all round event to drive on both road and track than the 3RS.

If you look at the ring lap vids the 3RS has greater apex speeds on a lot of the bends than the 2RS. But the 9k revs alone and throttle would make me pick the 3rs for a track tool. It just looks and sounds more hardcore, the 2RS just makes the straight bits shrink.

A 6.56 from a 520bhp NA car is outstanding even bettering the 918 lap !

For me on the road I,ll still take the purists car mind you, as i am not after lap times.

To quote AP “The New Porsche 911 GT3 Isn't All About Lap Times” thank goodness he made a manual with a real diff :-) as I learn mine it still blows me away, it's like a big GT4 but has the feel from my R, an amazing product.

So much so I have now sold 2 more Porkers as this car is the real deal for me, I am looking forward to the BBS wheels on mine to see if I notice the 11kg Un sprung weight and faster turn in. I may even buy the RS rose joint lca ends for even more feel.

[hunter 66]

Porsche911R said:

One only has to look at the amazing 6.56 3RS lap time to see how agility makes up for a 250bhp difference.

But it's interesting to talk about and that 2RS weight over the rear is a lot more than I expected.

Agree the .2 3 RS seems to be nicely balanced ( mine still on stock set up , but will make some changes ) even on the Dunlops which despite the press do not have the same grip ( are harder compound for sure ) . Which on clear laps is fine as you can carry the speed more but on busy Track days the lack of 6-700 bhp comes into play as you can only pass on the left and everyone hugs the LHS of the track from half way down the straight . Any way irrelevant as not a race and only running safely .
Instability on the Ring is natural when pushing hence why the good guys are good and brave .... and I cannot do it .

Edited by hunter 66 on Saturday 8th September 11:47

[APOLO1]

Porsche911R said:

If you look at the ring lap vids the 3RS has greater apex speeds on a lot of the bends than the 2RS. But the 9k revs alone and throttle would make me pick the 3rs for a track tool. It just looks and sounds more hardcore, the 2RS just makes the straight bits shrink.

A 6.56 from a 520bhp NA car is outstanding even bettering the 918 lap !

For me on the road I,ll still take the purists car mind you, as i am not after lap times.

To quote AP “The New Porsche 911 GT3 Isn't All About Lap Times” thank goodness he made a manual with a real diff :-) as I learn mine it still blows me away, it's like a big GT4 but has the feel from my R, an amazing product.

So much so I have now sold 2 more Porkers as this car is the real deal for me, I am looking forward to the BBS wheels on mine to see if I notice the 11kg Un sprung weight and faster turn in. I may even buy the RS rose joint lca ends for even more feel.

I dont class the ring as a track personally. But I take your point. My point was that going on EVOs data round Anglesey the 2RS is faster than the 3RS from entry to apex an through to exit on both the fast and slow speed corners. With the set up that I know have I also found it the same round Silverstone.

[AndrewD]

Yellow491 said:

O dear what has it come to,they are big,ugly,heavy,and to compare to a porsche race car is plain silly.
Best quote on here for years,crayons and pictures
Is it not sad to now purchase a car for its potential value retainment,rather than truly wanting a car for its looks and performance.

What is silly is claiming your opinion is more valid than anybody else’s. I was comparing road cars also, perhaps I should write that in crayon too.

I’ve driven both today, back to back. I love them both. Could give a toss what you think mush.

[Porsche911R]

APOLO1 said:

I dont class the ring as a track personally. But I take your point. My point was that going on EVOs data round Anglesey the 2RS is faster than the 3RS from entry to apex an through to exit on both the fast and slow speed corners. With the set up that I know have I also found it the same round Silverstone.

Yes it is clear from the ring vids how the 2RS piles on the speed after the apex, that must feel in another world. I am looking forward to experiencing it.

[APOLO1]

Porsche911R said:

Yes it is clear from the ring vids how the 2RS piles on the speed after the apex, that must feel in another world. I am looking forward to experiencing it.

You feel it most round the likes of Woodcote corner and the start of the Wellington St. In the 3RS and GT3 you seem to be praying for more torque. Whist the 2RS is long gone down the straight.
The straight's seem more like a V-max event than a GP track...Lol

[Robbo66]

Yellow491 said:

Best quote on here for years,crayons and pictures
.

And still he doesn’t get it....

[Robbo66]

AndrewD said:

Robbo you normally talk supreme sense on here, but really, 991.2 Touring better in every department than a 997.2 RS?? Steering feel? Howling Mezger? Chassis you need to work and not rely on RWS?

Bar the steering, correct. My apology. The Touring is superlative in every other aspect, for me, I know it’s subjective.
Whilst I liked it, prefer aircooled for the visceral experience as you know.
The GT3.2 on track would whop it, in my hands anyhow as not up there with some of the ‘Tony Starks’ on here. The engine on the Touring is a massive gain over the 997, mezger or not.
Again, figured I just wasn’t going to use it as have 420R for track, values falling, so it went.

[Yellow491]

AndrewD said:

Yellow491 said:

O dear what has it come to,they are big,ugly,heavy,and to compare to a porsche race car is plain silly.
Best quote on here for years,crayons and pictures
Is it not sad to now purchase a car for its potential value retainment,rather than truly wanting a car for its looks and performance.

What is silly is claiming your opinion is more valid than anybody else’s. I was comparing road cars also, perhaps I should write that in crayon too.

I’ve driven both today, back to back. I love them both. Could give a toss what you think mush.

Well what a reply,where do i say my opinion is better!Or is it because i dont like the latest and so called greatest new car mush,not concerned what you make of my opinionThe fact of my opinion is,they are ugly and heavy with a considerable attrition rate on expensive consumables on track.
I thought the journo had made the first claim it was like a race car,which is silly.
Still like crayon and pictures.

[Porsche911R]

Robbo66 said:

Bar the steering, correct. My apology. The Touring is superlative in every other aspect, for me, I know it’s subjective.
Whilst I liked it, prefer aircooled for the visceral experience as you know.
The GT3.2 on track would whop it, in my hands anyhow as not up there with some of the ‘Tony Starks’ on here. The engine on the Touring is a massive gain over the 997, mezger or not.
Again, figured I just wasn’t going to use it as have 420R for track, values falling, so it went.

Mezger has always been over rated on PH imo, poor road car engine esp matched to the GT3 gearing. I can see why you sold, once you have tried the new one, you could not go back.

Only reason a lot of newer people have held onto the GT3 has been rising values, back in the day the turn over of owners was massive and the cars cheap.

The shame is you now don’t see the cars on track either the only placed it came to life.

[isaldiri]

Porsche911R said:

Robbo66 said:

The engine on the Touring is a massive gain over the 997, mezger or not.

Mezger has always been over rated on PH imo, poor road car engine esp matched to the GT3 gearing.

Yes that over rated mezger which on the 7.2rs has pretty much identical gearing as the 991.2gt3.

And this is probably going to draw some ire but I don't really understand what's the big deal about the new 4.0 engine. It's a great engine for sure but it's not that different to another 4.0 500PS engine as some like to make it out as.

Given all the hype about the new unit, I was expecting something like the second coming. It's not and tbh having been on track at the same time with a few of the new gt3s in my overrated antiquated mezger that somehow has the same nominal specs as the shiny new unit, I'm not actually seeing any kind of gap being pulled out on straights if we're entering them at roughly the same speed and the new car has the technical advantage of being able to rev 500 rpm higher.

Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 8th September 19:50