997.1 GT3 - 911 Virgin

[GT4RS]

Benja_Exige said:

GT4RS said:

IMO both of those will be a hard sell even at 80k

Privately they need to be more like 70k and even at that price I don’t think you will get a stampede.

Prices are only slowly being reduced by realistic sellers, the ones that have been for sale for over 6 months and that’s most of them are just speculative sales.

At this price point many would opt for the new 718 GT4 4.0

I agree with this apart from the last point, as I think the person who wants a 996/997 GT3 is now somewhat different to the person that wants a shiny new GT4 (ignoring whether they could actually get one or not).

I looked seriously in July last and again recently. I've even made cash offers on x3 cars which have been politely declined or ignored.

I posted the following back in July last year which I still hold to (demonstrated by the fact I still don't own a GT3 )

Me last year in July 2018 said:

I’m in the market so watch reasonably closely and mainly observe the stagnation; cars just don’t move.

I’m not interested in getting a GT3 as an investment, it’s a car..to drive. Equally I don’t want to be crystallising a return on someone else’s investment and subsequently take a bath.

I think some of the inertia must be due to the predominance of SOR and unwillingness of the seller to not take the return they’d forecast or actually even a loss.

Where my head is at for a 996/997 non-RS clean/usable car requires adjustment from today’s prices.

996.1/2 = £55-65k rather than £65-£75k
997.1 = £60-75k rather than £75-£90k
997.2 = £85-100k rather than £105-120k

I’m not making any market forecasts or saying I’m right, I’m just illustrating MY current thinking. If I’m wrong that’s fine, I just won’t be driving a GT3.

In the real world I don’t think you are a million miles away from the real selling prices.

[Benja_Exige]

GT4RS said:

In the real world I don’t think you are a million miles away from the real selling prices.

You’d think huh. There’s still a mindset that these are not depreciating assets.

I think the new GT4, 992 GT3 and the 991.1 dropping into five figures will further dampen the 997 market.

If I went in today into a tidy 997.1 CS at £70k and kept for a couple of years I’d forecast that it would depreciate a further £10-15k in my tenure. Just my opinion, but it’s the opinion of a genuine buyer.

[GT4RS]

Benja_Exige said:

GT4RS said:

In the real world I don’t think you are a million miles away from the real selling prices.

You’d think huh. There’s still a mindset that these are not depreciating assets.

I think the new GT4, 992 GT3 and the 991.1 dropping into five figures will further dampen the 997 market.

If I went in today into a tidy 997.1 CS at £70k and kept for a couple of years I’d forecast that it would depreciate a further £10-15k in my tenure. Just my opinion, but it’s the opinion of a genuine buyer.

Imo you are being realistic.

Sit tight, more and more are coming up for sale and the ones which have been up for ever still haven’t sold.

The greedy people will get caught out.

[Digga]

Benja_Exige said:

I think the new GT4, 992 GT3 and the 991.1 dropping into five figures will further dampen the 997 market.

The only snag there is the ticking time bomb of the 991.1 GT3 engine warranty. I don't think it's a major issue, but it is there nonetheless.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Benja_Exige said:

GT4RS said:

In the real world I don’t think you are a million miles away from the real selling prices.

You’d think huh. There’s still a mindset that these are not depreciating assets.

I think the new GT4, 992 GT3 and the 991.1 dropping into five figures will further dampen the 997 market.

If I went in today into a tidy 997.1 CS at £70k and kept for a couple of years I’d forecast that it would depreciate a further £10-15k in my tenure. Just my opinion, but it’s the opinion of a genuine buyer.

Parr have a nice looking Guards Red GT3 mk1 with buckets and tequipment cage for £59,995. Right in your forecast.

[SL550M]

Slightly off topic, but somewhat related. Do you think the 997.2 Turbo and Turbo S is also over-priced? Have been to see a few cars in the last 2-3 weeks. I am SO tempted. But there are a lot for sale, at the usual places, and many have been on sale for a long time. Maybe some optimistic pricing on 997 Turbos, as with its sibling the GT3?

[kingroon]

SL550M said:

..Do you think the 997.2 Turbo and Turbo S is also over-priced? Have been to see a few cars in the last 2-3 weeks. I am SO tempted. But there are a lot for sale, at the usual places, and many have been on sale for a long time. Maybe some optimistic pricing on 997 Turbos, as with its sibling the GT3?

I got out of my 997.2 Turbo S just after the prices started to ride, and got out with "Free Motoring".. Coulda held on maybe for a bit longer, for a bit more, but might not have sold as quick etc. Mine only had 11K on the Clock..

They enjoyed a bit of a Bubble mid 2018, but have dropped more recently..?

[Benja_Exige]

I think perhaps the days of 997 based free motoring are over. Thr stagnation could be due to today’s buyers going into it acknowledging that, facing off to today’s sellers who don’t want to acknowledge that (it wasn’t the market position when they purchased)?

[ferrisbueller]

Digga said:

Benja_Exige said:

I think the new GT4, 992 GT3 and the 991.1 dropping into five figures will further dampen the 997 market.

The only snag there is the ticking time bomb of the 991.1 GT3 engine warranty. I don't think it's a major issue, but it is there nonetheless.

Do you think people will avoid 991 as a consequence though? And if they do, will they fall back on the 997?

There's about £10k between the 996 and 997.1 at present (Ashgoods have a 997.1 at £69,995)

[SL550M]

kingroon said:

SL550M said:

..Do you think the 997.2 Turbo and Turbo S is also over-priced? Have been to see a few cars in the last 2-3 weeks. I am SO tempted. But there are a lot for sale, at the usual places, and many have been on sale for a long time. Maybe some optimistic pricing on 997 Turbos, as with its sibling the GT3?

I got out of my 997.2 Turbo S just after the prices started to ride, and got out with "Free Motoring".. Coulda held on maybe for a bit longer, for a bit more, but might not have sold as quick etc. Mine only had 11K on the Clock..

They enjoyed a bit of a Bubble mid 2018, but have dropped more recently..?

Thanks kingroon. I do wonder if they're just on the cusp of a drop. The cars I've looked at, really nice examples, but the price hasn't dropped despite being for sale for 5, 6, 7 months. As a buyer it's hard to look at that and not be a little apprehensive.

Anyway, how did you enjoy ownership of your Turbo S? I'm planning to run mine as an only car, roughly 8-9k miles a year.

[JamieBeeston]

SL550M said:

kingroon said:

SL550M said:

..Do you think the 997.2 Turbo and Turbo S is also over-priced? Have been to see a few cars in the last 2-3 weeks. I am SO tempted. But there are a lot for sale, at the usual places, and many have been on sale for a long time. Maybe some optimistic pricing on 997 Turbos, as with its sibling the GT3?

I got out of my 997.2 Turbo S just after the prices started to ride, and got out with "Free Motoring".. Coulda held on maybe for a bit longer, for a bit more, but might not have sold as quick etc. Mine only had 11K on the Clock..

They enjoyed a bit of a Bubble mid 2018, but have dropped more recently..?

Thanks kingroon. I do wonder if they're just on the cusp of a drop. The cars I've looked at, really nice examples, but the price hasn't dropped despite being for sale for 5, 6, 7 months. As a buyer it's hard to look at that and not be a little apprehensive.

Anyway, how did you enjoy ownership of your Turbo S? I'm planning to run mine as an only car, roughly 8-9k miles a year.

As a seller of the 9e Turbo S cab, I'll say that my mentality is simply that summer is about to be upon us, and historically that always leads to a nice rise, especially on Cabs, so I'm not expecting any slides but am expecting an uptick in attention, especially if the dreaded Brexit gets sorted.

[Digga]

ferrisbueller said:

Digga said:

Benja_Exige said:

I think the new GT4, 992 GT3 and the 991.1 dropping into five figures will further dampen the 997 market.

The only snag there is the ticking time bomb of the 991.1 GT3 engine warranty. I don't think it's a major issue, but it is there nonetheless.

Do you think people will avoid 991 as a consequence though? And if they do, will they fall back on the 997?

There's about £10k between the 996 and 997.1 at present (Ashgoods have a 997.1 at £69,995)

I'm not an expert and not predicting prices/demand, but the fact remains, there is a finite warranty window and stories of 991.1 GT3s having had multiple new (and newer) engines are not myth but fact. I'm afraid that's a game of pass the parcel I'd not be interested in participating in and the 10 years is up in 2023 for early cars IIRC.

Money could go two ways; 997 or 991.2, depending on how the latter fares.

[Steve Rance]

The 991 and the 997 Are very different driving propositions. The 991 far more accessible, the 997 more rewarding with the driver being a far greater component in the extraction of its performance. Y The pre 991 models will probably be the purists option going forward. By purist I mean driver not beardy polisher. There is a big difference.

If I were buying or looking to buy it would probably be now - or at least before relative economic stability returns. Most businesses that I know of have postponed or delayed capital investment. That mind set seems consistent in most markets. Generally only forced sellers would venture into those conditions. So now would be a good time. Going forward, the likes of the 996 and 997 GT3’s won’t be seen again. They represent far better value for money than their air cooled predecessors - and I can’t see the air cooled markets collapsing any time soon. I can see the post 997 market becoming the ‘next shiny thing’ driven and more volatile.

I think that in the current market the smart buyer will recognise that the 997/7 GT3 and the GT4 are excellent value for money. The GT4 a riskier place to put it if the next generation has a better engine as dynamically they will be similar cars, both being largely digital. The earlier GT3’s will have no piers in that regard as they are essentially analog cars and the 991 and beyond are almost entirely digital.

Go and find a car with the pedigree and engagement of a 996/7 GT3 for the money. There was nothing that could touch them when they were launched and there won’t ever be anything built like them again.

[RicM5]

Having messed about (owned) with just about every model of 997 and then owned and driven several 991’s my conclusion was pictured below

[ttdan]

GT4RS said:

Benja_Exige said:

GT4RS said:

In the real world I don’t think you are a million miles away from the real selling prices.

You’d think huh. There’s still a mindset that these are not depreciating assets.

I think the new GT4, 992 GT3 and the 991.1 dropping into five figures will further dampen the 997 market.

If I went in today into a tidy 997.1 CS at £70k and kept for a couple of years I’d forecast that it would depreciate a further £10-15k in my tenure. Just my opinion, but it’s the opinion of a genuine buyer.

Imo you are being realistic.

Sit tight, more and more are coming up for sale and the ones which have been up for ever still haven’t sold.

The greedy people will get caught out.

If that was the case, in the real world, he’d own one by now.

[Benja_Exige]

ttdan said:

If that was the case, in the real world, he’d own one by now.

In the real world it seems that mostly people trying to sell them still own them

[GT4RS]

Benja_Exige said:

ttdan said:

If that was the case, in the real world, he’d own one by now.

In the real world it seems that mostly people trying to sell them still own them

I agree, my thoughts would to start engaging interest in the one or two cars you feel may be suitable. Make a firm offer and sit tight. You only have to look at the increasing number for sale to confirm more will and are coming to market.

But as Steve rightly mentioned above they are a special cars and will create there own unique following.

[Dammit]

And we have economic uncertainty and continuing losses (to add to the 66 billion lost so far) until (potentially) October 31st now- and probably beyond. A UK teetering on/going over the edge of recession is likely to see the slide in values continue I would think.

[Desert Dragon]

I can’t see now being the right time to buy anything with all due respect to others opinions. Businesses are suffering from uncertainty which in turn leads to volatility. This isn’t going to change for at least another 12 months but I can see the ripple effects effecting the UK and Europe for the next 3 years. Most newer cars bought on finance so all it will take is one trigger point/catalyst and I can see car prices, house prices etc plummeting. Not nice at the moment and if you buy a GT3 expect normal depreciation over the next 3 years.

997 GT3 3 years out £55/60k

991.1 GT3 3 years out £75/80k

991.2 GT3 3 yrs out £95/100k

Remember 992.1 GT3 and 992.2 GT3 all expected to be NA with manual.

In many ways nice as historically this is how all cars depreciate. I noticed the build nos for newer GT cars on another thread and they’re astronomical compared to the older stuff like 996.1 GT3 and 996 GT3 RS. That’s where my money would go for a weekend track car.

[Deansfield]

Depreciation in many ways nice !!!!
Not sure I understand 🤨