997.1 GT3 - 911 Virgin
Discussion
They are indeed very special cars, but they’re also a very niche product.
Sure they have their appeal, but only to a few enthusiasts who appreciate their virtues. Put bluntly, the market for them is tiny.
And whilst Porsche produce the likes of the GT4 and ever larger numbers of the 991/992 GT cars, along with the availablility of cheap credit, you’d have to be totally smitten with what is now a 13 year old car to pay the current Gen 1 997 GT3 prices. In short, they don’t make a lot of financial sense. But as we know, logic rarely comes into buying such cars ...
I’d suggest that just as the 996.1 & 2 GT3 (though not RS) prices have slid and stagnated, 997.1 prices will/are doing the same.
It’s a buyers market and has been for sometime now.
Buy now if you really must (or you’re of the opinion life is too short to wait for prices to soften further), but be warned prices are probably going to slide further.
Sure they have their appeal, but only to a few enthusiasts who appreciate their virtues. Put bluntly, the market for them is tiny.
And whilst Porsche produce the likes of the GT4 and ever larger numbers of the 991/992 GT cars, along with the availablility of cheap credit, you’d have to be totally smitten with what is now a 13 year old car to pay the current Gen 1 997 GT3 prices. In short, they don’t make a lot of financial sense. But as we know, logic rarely comes into buying such cars ...
I’d suggest that just as the 996.1 & 2 GT3 (though not RS) prices have slid and stagnated, 997.1 prices will/are doing the same.
It’s a buyers market and has been for sometime now.
Buy now if you really must (or you’re of the opinion life is too short to wait for prices to soften further), but be warned prices are probably going to slide further.
Desert Dragon said:
I can’t see now being the right time to buy anything with all due respect to others opinions. Businesses are suffering from uncertainty which in turn leads to volatility. This isn’t going to change for at least another 12 months but I can see the ripple effects effecting the UK and Europe for the next 3 years.
If you shouldn't buy anything are people just sitting on cash and accepting the effective gradual erosion of value as any interest received is well below the rate of inflation?Is the whole of Europe in this state while Brexit gets sorted as values over there seem OK. Not sure what the appetite for RHD cars is for export but some of these predictions would give people an incentive based on the delta and the exchange rate.
ferrisbueller said:
Desert Dragon said:
I can’t see now being the right time to buy anything with all due respect to others opinions. Businesses are suffering from uncertainty which in turn leads to volatility. This isn’t going to change for at least another 12 months but I can see the ripple effects effecting the UK and Europe for the next 3 years.
If you shouldn't buy anything are people just sitting on cash and accepting the effective gradual erosion of value as any interest received is well below the rate of inflation?Is the whole of Europe in this state while Brexit gets sorted as values over there seem OK. Not sure what the appetite for RHD cars is for export but some of these predictions would give people an incentive based on the delta and the exchange rate.
I'm buying physical gold with savings but thats just me. Most of the financial experts say I'm wrong to do so. My own view with govts printing new money for fun and very slow growth (recession really but govt figures keep on showing growth which I simply do not believe) physical gold may be a good place to put your money for next 5-10 years. My rationale is that with more cash being printed and gold instrument mkt not actually having the physical gold behind their daily trades there may be a liquidity squeeze on physical gold which could maybe send prices rocketing but do your own research I may be completely wrong. Its quite binary.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
^This. Not least because if you are buying with the intention of keeping the car, you want something that is absolutely the right spec for you. So you have to be fussy, which will mean ignoring a large number of cars, because they don't fit your personal requirements and preferences. The flip side of this being, if you see one that is the right spec and is tidy, has all the right bills and ticks all or most of the boxes, you cannot assume another one will turn up again for a while. This is especially true where buyers have a preference for lower mileage cars - none are getting younger.Back on point. Im actively in the market and have been for a few months having viewed cars in glasgow, sutton coldfield and essex.
the simple reason that ive not bought as yet is because ive felt that supply outstrips demand and i wanted to see what else surfaces in spring given im not in a mad rush to end up in a car thats not right for me as i intend to keep it for a while
im a little surprised that things seem to softening up quite dramatically price wise and i know for fact that i could have been in one that is currently advertise for around 10k less than what the dealer has it up for
over time i have become increasingly picky because as others have noted, more are coming to the market including non CS cars with buckets that are not in white!
for the right car i will gladly pay up to 60/70k for a non cs and 70/75 for a cs
im not convinced that three years from now theres that much room for them to drop further but im not that bothered. i think they are a fairly low cost ownership proposition over the medium term and id be more than happy for it to cost me 2k a year ex running and maintenance costs.
the simple reason that ive not bought as yet is because ive felt that supply outstrips demand and i wanted to see what else surfaces in spring given im not in a mad rush to end up in a car thats not right for me as i intend to keep it for a while
im a little surprised that things seem to softening up quite dramatically price wise and i know for fact that i could have been in one that is currently advertise for around 10k less than what the dealer has it up for
over time i have become increasingly picky because as others have noted, more are coming to the market including non CS cars with buckets that are not in white!
for the right car i will gladly pay up to 60/70k for a non cs and 70/75 for a cs
im not convinced that three years from now theres that much room for them to drop further but im not that bothered. i think they are a fairly low cost ownership proposition over the medium term and id be more than happy for it to cost me 2k a year ex running and maintenance costs.
I think a lot depends on what happens next politically- if the Tories spaff the next three months on a leadership contest where we end up with either a charlatan or a lunatic then prices will keep dropping as more money (and business) leaves the country.
Of course, the real bargains would be had post Oct 31st if we have (say) Mogg as PM by then and crash out - proper disaster capitalism time then, as desperate people realise assets in a plunging currency.
However, it looks (based on last night) that as long as we have someone sane as PM the EU will never throw us out, and we’ll never leave without a deal, so much rides on when May goes, and who grabs the wheel afterward.
Of course, the real bargains would be had post Oct 31st if we have (say) Mogg as PM by then and crash out - proper disaster capitalism time then, as desperate people realise assets in a plunging currency.
However, it looks (based on last night) that as long as we have someone sane as PM the EU will never throw us out, and we’ll never leave without a deal, so much rides on when May goes, and who grabs the wheel afterward.
Buyers market for foreseeable future so nothing wrong with waiting for perfect spec car.
Also many Porsche indies sprung up from nowhere over last 3 years. I can see the inexperienced and even certain experienced ones go bust through this horrible economic period so I personally wouldn't be in any rush until the perfect car turns up. I went to see an air-cooled 911 at one of them recently. The car had had a hard impact off side front. The owner of the indy genuinely didn't know and described the car over the phone as a perfect car. Felt bad telling him as the car was up for all the money as a low owner, original panel car. Accident damage must check on a GT3 but thats not to say a well repaired car an issue as these cars are track cars but just shouldn't be the same money as an original panel car. Thats why the car this thread started about is never going to be a cheap car. There's GT3s and then theres perfect GT3s.
Also many Porsche indies sprung up from nowhere over last 3 years. I can see the inexperienced and even certain experienced ones go bust through this horrible economic period so I personally wouldn't be in any rush until the perfect car turns up. I went to see an air-cooled 911 at one of them recently. The car had had a hard impact off side front. The owner of the indy genuinely didn't know and described the car over the phone as a perfect car. Felt bad telling him as the car was up for all the money as a low owner, original panel car. Accident damage must check on a GT3 but thats not to say a well repaired car an issue as these cars are track cars but just shouldn't be the same money as an original panel car. Thats why the car this thread started about is never going to be a cheap car. There's GT3s and then theres perfect GT3s.
RC1 said:
for the right car i will gladly pay up to 60/70k for a non cs and 70/75 for a cs
im not convinced that three years from now theres that much room for them to drop further but im not that bothered. i think they are a fairly low cost ownership proposition over the medium term and id be more than happy for it to cost me 2k a year ex running and maintenance costs.
Values have definutely cooled. 2013/4 996s were mid 30s with 997s mid 50s. I struggle to see that we're going back there. In terms of asking prices we've started to see overlap. Perhaps build numbers are a factor but I've not found a reliable source for how many examples of each are actually out there.im not convinced that three years from now theres that much room for them to drop further but im not that bothered. i think they are a fairly low cost ownership proposition over the medium term and id be more than happy for it to cost me 2k a year ex running and maintenance costs.
It is a shame there isn't more transparency with respect to actual prices paid. I don't see these as weekend only/track cars, especially the 997 such is the added comfort and refinement.
Steve Rance said:
By purist I mean driver not beardy polisher. There is a big difference.
I bought a 997 GT3. I like to polish it now and again. I have some facial hair.Other than that, I agree with you entirely Steve.
If it should half in value though, so what? That would only be realised if I sold it (which I have absolutely no plans to do until I cannot physically extract myself from it unaided) , and even then, halving in value would be normal depreciation for most new cars available for a similar initial outlay, over 4 or 5 years.
Only regret I have is not buying one sooner. What a thing....
Desert Dragon said:
I'm buying physical gold with savings but thats just me.
Last time I checked we were talking about cars, not investments. This is what's wrong with the whole picture! The two are somehow being confused. If gold, or numbers on a balance sheet float your boat, that's absolutely fine, but this isn't Investors Chronicle. Gold is not a substitute for a GT3, and a GT3 should not be considered a substitute for gold, or any other investment in my view.
Cars COST money.
And are worth every single penny.
D.no said:
Last time I checked we were talking about cars, not investments.
Totally agree. Cars like this (typically) depreciate, cost a load of money to run but pay out dividends in other ways. I’m considering ownership with EXACTLY this mindset, I want a GT3 to drive and enjoy. I fully expect both running costs and depreciation to be meaningful.
I’m just baulking at the intransigence of a market that’s stagnation seems to point to sellers who don’t share that mindset.
Benja_Exige said:
Totally agree. Cars like this (typically) depreciate, cost a load of money to run but pay out dividends in other ways.
I’m considering ownership with EXACTLY this mindset, I want a GT3 to drive and enjoy. I fully expect both running costs and depreciation to be meaningful.
I’m just baulking at the intransigence of a market that’s stagnation seems to point to sellers who don’t share that mindset.
I have complete empathy with your predicament, having been in exactly this situation. I even argued as much on here. In the end I buckled (because I made the mistake of finding a fantastic example and falling for it), but would agree that if someone actually needs (as distinct to "wants") to sell a car, they need to find a price point at which it will shift. I suspect, however, there aren't many people who own GT3's that actually need to sell them. In just the same way that there aren't many people (myself excluded!) who actually need to buy one. That, mixed with uncertainty (so, hopefully the loss of a number of investors from the car market) = current situation I think.I’m considering ownership with EXACTLY this mindset, I want a GT3 to drive and enjoy. I fully expect both running costs and depreciation to be meaningful.
I’m just baulking at the intransigence of a market that’s stagnation seems to point to sellers who don’t share that mindset.
I'm also very mindful of the fact that non of this is a rehersal and life can crap on you from a great height without notice, and even if the car is worth a small fraction of what I paid for it in 15 or 20 years time, it won't be the costs that I look back on with regret, it'll be the experiences that I look back on and wish I'd bought one sooner.
Interesting thread. I've been looking at getting a GT3 for a few months, looking at 997 and 991.2. I'm firmly set on the 991.2 now, but think the prices are silly at the mo. Just don't see them staying at anything like £150k when the 992 comes along and when Brexit becomes a reality.
I'm all for the carpe diem attitude, but don't see the point of dropping 10s of £000s for the sake of waiting a few months for economic reality to sink in.
Time may prove this approach wrong, of course, but I'm not the one with money locked in the car right now and can jump in later if everything's looking rosy!
I'm all for the carpe diem attitude, but don't see the point of dropping 10s of £000s for the sake of waiting a few months for economic reality to sink in.
Time may prove this approach wrong, of course, but I'm not the one with money locked in the car right now and can jump in later if everything's looking rosy!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
This ^Any market needs some velocity to establish price. This market is pretty stagnant but that doesn’t mean prices are too high it means sellers aren’t motivated enough. I don’t get the “its a buyers market” thing what does that actually mean...if sellers aren’t selling It’s plainly not
Sellers have their price, if you offer lower and it’s rejected you didn’t offer enough. It’s pretty simple really.
So if you want to own a car then just pay the price. If you don’t, then don’t. You spend the money one way or another anyway..
Maybe I'm looking at the wrong classifieds. To me things seem buoyant across the board. All sorts moving inc plenty 997.2 GT3's. Appreciate, its that narrow window time of year when sales appear most active. All the same, plenty of of GT stuff is moving.
Think the buyer who moved 3-4 months ago hit it right. Jeez .... You couldn't give away 991.2 RS's. Who'd of thought ?? and the ads were bulging with all manor of tasty stuff - bit thin at present.
Think the buyer who moved 3-4 months ago hit it right. Jeez .... You couldn't give away 991.2 RS's. Who'd of thought ?? and the ads were bulging with all manor of tasty stuff - bit thin at present.
jonny finance said:
Maybe I'm looking at the wrong classifieds. To me things seem buoyant across the board. All sorts moving inc plenty 997.2 GT3's. Appreciate, its that narrow window time of year when sales appear most active. All the same, plenty of of GT stuff is moving.
Think the buyer who moved 3-4 months ago hit it right. Jeez .... You couldn't give away 991.2 RS's. Who'd of thought ?? and the ads were bulging with all manor of tasty stuff - bit thin at present.
What adverts are you looking at? Think the buyer who moved 3-4 months ago hit it right. Jeez .... You couldn't give away 991.2 RS's. Who'd of thought ?? and the ads were bulging with all manor of tasty stuff - bit thin at present.
Skrambles said:
Interesting thread. I've been looking at getting a GT3 for a few months, looking at 997 and 991.2. I'm firmly set on the 991.2 now, but think the prices are silly at the mo. Just don't see them staying at anything like £150k when the 992 comes along and when Brexit becomes a reality.
I'm all for the carpe diem attitude, but don't see the point of dropping 10s of £000s for the sake of waiting a few months for economic reality to sink in.
Time may prove this approach wrong, of course, but I'm not the one with money locked in the car right now and can jump in later if everything's looking rosy!
997 and 991 are very, very different platforms. IMHO, both have their merits and in a perfect world "both" is definitely the right answer. I'm all for the carpe diem attitude, but don't see the point of dropping 10s of £000s for the sake of waiting a few months for economic reality to sink in.
Time may prove this approach wrong, of course, but I'm not the one with money locked in the car right now and can jump in later if everything's looking rosy!
My view, when I was buying, was that I desperately wanted a 'keeper' and so the actual purchase price was flexible and I was looking all through the (non RS) options from 997.1, through 997.2, to 991.1 (the .2 was not out at that time and was, in any case, above budget). In the end, for me, I liked the Idea of the 7 platform, as it had so much potential for tuning to personal preference and there was a plethora of knowledge and many, many road and race hours logged worldwide to develop good modifications.
The residuals of 991.2's will be dictated by how good, or not, the 992 GT3 is. This is by no means certain - ask anyone who traded a 458 in readiness to buy the (less fun) 488.
I think unless your over stretching yourself in order to buy the car in the first place, the fluctuations in it's value during ownership ought to be of little concern providing it's been bought for the "right" reason. I bought my car (997.1 CS) as I've wanted one for years and could finally comfortably afford to do so, and am conscious likely bought at the peak of the current pricing level. I love it & drive it as much as I possibly can.
I don't intend to sell it, and therefore I don't need to worry if it's not worth the money I paid for it, as I could afford it. I drive it, enjoy it, look after it, and feel lucky to have it.
If you want one, can comfortably get one, just bloody do it and get the best one you can. It's the most exciting, rewarding and challenging car I've ever owned.
We're all a long time in a box at the end of the day.
I don't intend to sell it, and therefore I don't need to worry if it's not worth the money I paid for it, as I could afford it. I drive it, enjoy it, look after it, and feel lucky to have it.
If you want one, can comfortably get one, just bloody do it and get the best one you can. It's the most exciting, rewarding and challenging car I've ever owned.
We're all a long time in a box at the end of the day.
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