991.2 gt3 - when is right to buy

[993rsr]

Porsche911R said:

Juno said:

PCCB debate going on in the other thread which was ruined by name calling.

Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 11th March 11:14

The only issue on the other thread is your perpetual posting of what you perceive to be facts, which as clearly explained by those far more skilled and knowledgeable are in fact anything but.

And as someone else has eloquently put it, you without fail - simply slink off in every single situation to repeat the same tired playbook on a new topic at your whim.

[993rsr]

Cheib said:

isaldiri said:

Cheib said:

I'd love to drive a steel braked car vs a PCCB car back to back...would just be interested to see if I can notice anything other than caliper colour!

If done as a blind test and you didn't know which car had which brakes that would be really interesting.

Pedal feel would give it away but would still like to do it.

Indeed, would be very enlightening if such a test could be done.

[Juno]

Porsche911R said:

Juno said:

A PDK Clubsport is quicker around a track and quicker 0-62 than a manual car as far as I am aware so where is the gain from the lighter car?

you loose 2/10th on a manual over a PDK every gear change, if the manual were slower down the straights it would be well off a PDK time if you added up all the 2/10th loss. the fact that they just about post the same time proves the lighter car is faster in some parts of the track and claws back some of those 2/10ths lost every change.

0-62 is all about launch control computers, do a rolling start from 30 mph the lighter car will always be faster in gear also less PARASITIC LOSS to the wheels so the manual will have more BHP to the wheels than the PDK car. many you tube vids of PDK vs manual GT3, you can see the PDK gain on gear change then loose once in gear.

it's all very small advantages like the PCCB debate going on in the other thread which was ruined by name calling. But a PCCB car would be faster than a steel car in a drag race, like for like even if it's just 1mm gain

Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 11th March 11:14

Yep I agree and get all that,so unless you’re on a never ending straight road to the limiter in top gear the PDK is the faster car in real life!

Anyway I thought the manual had flat upshifts?

Edited by Juno on Monday 11th March 14:34

[Juno]

On track I think the major loss will be found down shifting in the manual car with the unsettling weight transfer as you constantly go down the box gear by gear, brake heel toe seesaw, brake heel toe seesaw etc etc

PDK just KerChing KerChing KerChing with the weight constantly sitting on the nose also aiding turn in,you know it makes sense

is SOOOOooooo SLOW

Edited by Juno on Monday 11th March 14:44

[nigelonich]

RSVP911 said:

Crayon on the GT3 looks absolutely fantastic as long as there are lots of black accents - Crayon always looks poor in photos, but it’s lovely in the metal

Yup, agreed. I went for Crayon and it looks a lot lighter in the flesh than on a photo as it reflects the dark more than the light as you can see below where the roof area is light but the ground/tarmac is reflecting on the lower panels.

[Porsche911R]

Juno said:

Yep I agree and get all that,so unless you’re on a never ending straight road to the limiter in top gear the PDK is the faster car in real life!

Anyway I thought the manual had flat upshifts?

A flat shift still requires a clutch press hence a 2/10th loss (you gain about a 1/10th over a really good normal shift) , you don't change gear on some tracks as much as you think, so you might make up time in a manual over a PDK or be flashing them over down the straights ;-) but if a manual loses out 8 gear changes a lap it's making up over a second in other area's to get the same lap time. I think in a race a PDK car is not getting by on the straights where a PDK in front would have to block the manual to stay in front. But as we all know no one races and every one does 60 so a moot point.

what you get, as you point out is the interaction of driving the car , Threshold braking while heal and toe is the key track skill, not needed in a PDK so depends if you want to be fast while not leaning a skill, or want to be fast because of a skill you have gained.

I do seem to think most people want to be fast with little skill/effort as driving does need quite a high skill set to be fast. I do sweat quite a lot in a manual but find getting the same time from a PDK is a walk in the park, but ultimately dull as st. I would myself be faster on a lap in a PDK car as I am not a paid pro racing driver.

[993rsr]

Porsche911R said:

Juno said:

Yep I agree and get all that,so unless you’re on a never ending straight road to the limiter in top gear the PDK is the faster car in real life!

Anyway I thought the manual had flat upshifts?

A flat shift still requires a clutch press hence a 2/10th loss (you gain about a 1/10th over a really good normal shift) , you don't change gear on some tracks as much as you think, so you might make up time in a manual over a PDK or be flashing them over down the straights ;-) but if a manual loses out 8 gear changes a lap it's making up over a second in other area's to get the same lap time. I think in a race a PDK car is not getting by on the straights where a PDK in front would have to block the manual to stay in front. But as we all know no one races and every one does 60 so a moot point.

what you get, as you point out is the interaction of driving the car , Threshold braking while heal and toe is the key track skill, not needed in a PDK so depends if you want to be fast while not leaning a skill, or want to be fast because of a skill you have gained.

I do seem to think most people want to be fast with little skill/effort as driving does need quite a high skill set to be fast. I do sweat quite a lot in a manual but find getting the same time from a PDK is a walk in the park, but ultimately dull as st. I would myself be faster on a lap in a PDK car as I am not a paid pro racing driver.

It's strange that you have previously on several occasions admitted freely to being a 'novice' and having 'all the gear and no idea'.

From those statements you seem to be now saying that now you have discovered that 'threshold braking while heal and toeing is the key track skill' and have overnight morphed into a wheel man of the very highest order.

You dismiss PDK as a 'walk in the park' but ultimately dull as sxxt - can you enlighten us how many laps of what tracks in a GT3 PDK you've driven?


Perhaps the fact you are 'sweating quite a lot' in a manual is because you are very new to a 911 platform and someone who at his own admission is in fact 'a novice' could be discovering a manual 991.2 GT3 is in fact too much car for your skill set and abilities?

Another example of your illusory superiority perhaps.

There are several people including Steve Rance, Yellow491 and Hunter66 who have decades of experience in 911 platforms of road and race variants and would be happy to give you some pointers at Donington?

Lol and all that.

Edited by 993rsr on Monday 11th March 17:42

Edited by 993rsr on Monday 11th March 17:55

[av185]

Liking the 'heal and tow' stuff......

[av185]

Cheib said:

You could say the same about most of the GT3 colours. I think the only two colours available on 991.2 GT3 that you could argue are GT colours are GT Silver and Lava Orange as they were both introduced on GT cars ? (Carrera GT and 991.1 GT3 RS respectively). Maybe Carrera White or Racing Yellow are but no idea what they were introduced on.

Think it's a real shame that they don't have a special colour for the GT3 like they do for the RS.

Agree C what is also interesting is that some colours which were unpopular on both the gen 1 and gen 2 GT3s when new are actually good sellers second hand simply due to restricted numbers. Agate grey is a prime example which whilst imo it is dull as dishwasher (or is it ditchwater, I never know) especially for a GT3 this has been bolstered by grey being the 'must have' colour for mainstream cars this year.

Carrara is a GT colour btw. Guards may be too.

Unsure whether the GT silver on early Porsches is actually the same as the GT silver today. A great colour.

[isaldiri]

It's always entertaining when some people say a manual loses 2/3 tenths on every gear change. A car doesn't stop moving when a manual gearbox is changing gear, it will accelerate less vs a dual clutch car in those couple of tenths but the speed of gearchange absolutely does not equate to a similar time loss.

I'd agree with Juno, for a non pro driver, actually keeping the car balanced properly for corner entry is where a manual is going to be much more difficult than a dual clutch (well there's always rev match in today's cars...) but although it's easier to be quick in the dual clutch car, driving at the limit of capability that a 991gt3 can do is for non driving gods anything but a walk in the park or dull as st as claimed above.

[993rsr]

isaldiri said:

It's always entertaining when some people say a manual loses 2/3 tenths on every gear change. A car doesn't stop moving when a manual gearbox is changing gear, it will accelerate less vs a dual clutch car in those couple of tenths but the speed of gearchange absolutely does not equate to a similar time loss.

I'd agree with Juno, for a non pro driver, actually keeping the car balanced properly for corner entry is where a manual is going to be much more difficult than a dual clutch (well there's always rev match in today's cars...) but although it's easier to be quick in the dual clutch car, driving at the limit of capability that a 991gt3 can do is for non driving gods anything but a walk in the park or dull as st as claimed above.

Quite.

Whilst I love manual transmissions, there are circumstances when a PDK really is exceptional. I loved it on my 991RS despite my prior misconceptions. Anyone who is bigoted enough to make a statement that PDK is 'dull as shxt' should not be posting on a forum.

Edited by 993rsr on Monday 11th March 18:21

[av185]

Ha ha talking of PDK being dull where's cmoose when you need him?

[Porsche911R]

isaldiri said:

It's always entertaining when some people say a manual loses 2/3 tenths on every gear change. A car doesn't stop moving when a manual gearbox is changing gear, it will accelerate less vs a dual clutch car in those couple of tenths but the speed of gearchange absolutely does not equate to a similar time loss.

.

The acceleration loss is 2/10th that's what is timed and plotted . So what you find entertaining is in fact a fact :-) done with time over distance plots by many a person inc Pro drivers and myself on the many 30-130 days I use to attend with like minded people interested in real facts.

And it's about 3/10th with a pro on a normal shift with throttle lift.

It would be very hard to measure a gear change time and would be pretty pointless.

you guys are classic funny to read.

[Cheib]

av185 said:

Cheib said:

You could say the same about most of the GT3 colours. I think the only two colours available on 991.2 GT3 that you could argue are GT colours are GT Silver and Lava Orange as they were both introduced on GT cars ? (Carrera GT and 991.1 GT3 RS respectively). Maybe Carrera White or Racing Yellow are but no idea what they were introduced on.

Think it's a real shame that they don't have a special colour for the GT3 like they do for the RS.

Agree C what is also interesting is that some colours which were unpopular on both the gen 1 and gen 2 GT3s when new are actually good sellers second hand simply due to restricted numbers. Agate grey is a prime example which whilst imo it is dull as dishwasher (or is it ditchwater, I never know) especially for a GT3 this has been bolstered by grey being the 'must have' colour for mainstream cars this year.

Carrara is a GT colour btw. Guards may be too.

Unsure whether the GT silver on early Porsches is actually the same as the GT silver today. A great colour.

I think Guards Red was in the range before they’d thought of GT cars....been around since the 70’s I think. I don’t like the brown tint that Agate has, which Crayon has in some lights too. Shame that don’t bring Grey/Black back as the dark grey for GT cars.

I believe the original saying was ditchwater but has been usurped by dishwater....and lets face it ditchwater is much duller than dishwater. Literally a watered down modern version....not unlike these modern GT cars.

[isaldiri]

Porsche911R said:

The acceleration loss is 2/10th that's what is timed and plotted . So what you find entertaining is in fact a fact :-) done with time over distance plots by many a person inc Pro drivers and myself on the many 30-130 days I use to attend with like minded people interested in real facts.

And it's about 3/10th with a pro on a normal shift with throttle lift.

It would be very hard to measure a gear change time and would be pretty pointless.

you guys are classic funny to read.

A time/distance plot of 30-130 or whatever as a comparison would tell you which car had shorter gearing. Which a dual clutch car has strangely enough.

You are the one making the claim

Porsche911R said:

you loose 2/10th on a manual over a PDK every gear change, if the manual were slower down the straights it would be well off a PDK time if you added up all the 2/10th loss

How do your so called 'real facts' actually show losing your supposed 0.2s on every gear change when the cars are going to be changing gears on different speeds?

[Juno]

993rsr said:

Quite.

Whilst I love manual transmissions, there are circumstances when a PDK really is exceptional. I loved it on my 991RS despite my prior misconceptions. Anyone who is bigoted enough to make a statement that PDK is 'dull as shxt' should not be posting on a forum.

Edited by 993rsr on Monday 11th March 18:21

+1

[Juno]

Porsche911R said:

Juno said:

Yep I agree and get all that,so unless you’re on a never ending straight road to the limiter in top gear the PDK is the faster car in real life!

Anyway I thought the manual had flat upshifts?

A flat shift still requires a clutch press hence a 2/10th loss (you gain about a 1/10th over a really good normal shift) , you don't change gear on some tracks as much as you think, so you might make up time in a manual over a PDK or be flashing them over down the straights ;-) but if a manual loses out 8 gear changes a lap it's making up over a second in other area's to get the same lap time. I think in a race a PDK car is not getting by on the straights where a PDK in front would have to block the manual to stay in front. But as we all know no one races and every one does 60 so a moot point.

what you get, as you point out is the interaction of driving the car , Threshold braking while heal and toe is the key track skill, not needed in a PDK so depends if you want to be fast while not leaning a skill, or want to be fast because of a skill you have gained.

I do seem to think most people want to be fast with little skill/effort as driving does need quite a high skill set to be fast. I do sweat quite a lot in a manual but find getting the same time from a PDK is a walk in the park, but ultimately dull as st. I would myself be faster on a lap in a PDK car as I am not a paid pro racing driver.

If you can drive then you can drive both cars,there just different!!!

[Juno]

av185 said:

Agree C what is also interesting is that some colours which were unpopular on both the gen 1 and gen 2 GT3s when new are actually good sellers second hand simply due to restricted numbers. Agate grey is a prime example which whilst imo it is dull as dishwasher (or is it ditchwater, I never know) especially for a GT3 this has been bolstered by grey being the 'must have' colour for mainstream cars this year.

Carrara is a GT colour btw. Guards may be too.

Unsure whether the GT silver on early Porsches is actually the same as the GT silver today. A great colour.

Yes but is Crayon faster than GT Silver

[av185]

Juno said:

Yes but is Crayon faster than GT Silver

Undoubtedly as flat colours weigh less than metallics with all those silver particles in the paint.

Admittedly the weight difference won't be as evident as the ceramics and steel brake debate :

[Macca993]

There is alot of drivel on thsi thread.

I measured my GT4 against my GT3 (with PDK) on my local circuit. Im consisent at this track. I use an AIM telemerics system that records data from the ECU so I can compare traces. I have those traces. They show that in "Sport" mode the manual car was approximately 0.2s slower on each upshift than the PDK car. Under brakes (i.e. taht when youw ill always be changing down) you loose no time naturaley.

We were trying to determine how the GT4 with 100 less HP was only 1 second per 1 minute lap slower than the GT3 at the track. Myself and a few others moved from the GT3 to GT4 in the hope of having a more involving expperience on the road (manual). That was largely a "fail" due to teh very tall gearing but interestingly that gearing worked well on the track!

In Sport mode the GT4 manual gearbox "holds" the reves in an upshift for a fraction of a second. Thsi is why the loss of time on a shift with the GT4 is so much less than expected (my 993RS was double that lose with a freshly rebuilt G50/64 box!). Of course in Sport mode you also get the rev matching on downshift not taht theres really any time lost then anyway. But it helps stability. So assume 991.2 GT3 Manual is programmed the same (I need to check myself).

You can check out my youtube channel "Motecca" just incase I start sounding like another "desktop" racer etc