997/996 GT3 dynamics

[Harris_I]

I think fioran0 did a thread on this, way back in the mists of time.

[alfapork]

MDL111 said:

back to my favourite topic - how stupid is it to run a 996 Cup on road tyres…. I just don't want to have to (can't) buy/store an SUV and a trailer. Also I'd rather be very uncomfortable on my way to a track than driven a bloody SUV with a trailer ….

Really? I find the trailer and SUV liberating. I am not thinking about how am I going to get this lump back home if I wipe it down the pit wall. Plus I can relax in my bath of a truck on the way home at 60mph!

[Harris_I]

I'm the opposite. I hate trailering. Absolute nightmare at 5 in the morning trying to manhandle it and hook it up on an inclined driveway. Was one of the logistics of racing I was only too glad to leave behind.

[braddo]

MDL111 said:

back to my favourite topic - how stupid is it to run a 996 Cup on road tyres…. I just don't want to have to (can't) buy/store an SUV and a trailer. Also I'd rather be very uncomfortable on my way to a track than driven a bloody SUV with a trailer ….

Have spoken to a shop and they think it is still possible to road reg one (even if they do not recommend it)

I'll take a stab and say a bit less camber and toe than a full race setup, plus an extra seat cushion and some earplugs for the road journeys and you're good to go.

Of course, you would want to watch the Top Gear episode where James May is in an Aston race car in Provence before you think about a Cup car for longer trips!

[TDT]

Digga said:

Steve Rance said:

Hopefully ill be taking the 997 Cup. Happy to do some rides on the day

You've just got yourself 80 odd kgs of ballast.

Looks like you’re going need to create a little list Steve.

I’d like to add myself to it please.

[Yellow491]

TDT said:

The season can't begin soon enough..... on the countdown to RS day.

The rs day starts thurs eve at the fishpool inn;) i still get excited arriving at oulton for the rs day to see old friends,great cars and good driving from all the guys that have supported us the rs day for many years.
We are already thinking of what to do for the 20th rs day 2020,may be a two day event, bbq some where or large dinner on the sat eve,perhaps get the rally course as well and get a few cars out oversteering there way around.

[TDT]

Yellow491 said:

TDT said:

The season can't begin soon enough..... on the countdown to RS day.

The rs day starts thurs eve at the fishpool inn;) i still get excited arriving at oulton for the rs day to see old friends,great cars and good driving from all the guys that have supported us the rs day for many years.
We are already thinking of what to do for the 20th rs day 2020,may be a two day event, bbq some where or large dinner on the sat eve,perhaps get the rally course as well and get a few cars out oversteering there way around.

Yep - I'll be there on Thursday night.

[Digga]

TDT said:

Digga said:

Steve Rance said:

Hopefully ill be taking the 997 Cup. Happy to do some rides on the day

You've just got yourself 80 odd kgs of ballast.

Looks like you’re going need to create a little list Steve.

I’d like to add myself to it please.

In fairness, I'm pretty sure the offer was directed at you.

I was merely being cheeky. Although a pax in a Cup car would be nice.

[Porsche911R]

Yellow491 said:

The rs day starts thurs eve at the fishpool inn;) i still get excited arriving at oulton for the rs day to see old friends,great cars and good driving from all the guys that have supported us the rs day for many years.
We are already thinking of what to do for the 20th rs day 2020,may be a two day event, bbq some where or large dinner on the sat eve,perhaps get the rally course as well and get a few cars out oversteering there way around.

move it a bit later in the year and it would be great.

I also go but tend not to book on, as the weather 7 times out of 10 is rank, come 3pm about 3 cars on track as most have gone home with blue fingers.
most pop area is the dinner hall ;-)

2 day events and BBQ are great if done in May ;-)

I used to like the Porsche Donny day, but it got canned sadly.

RS day seems more about meeting up, but it's too cold and people soon move on.

[MDL111]

Harris_I said:

I think fioran0 did a thread on this, way back in the mists of time.

thanks, will have a look for that

[MDL111]

alfapork said:

MDL111 said:

back to my favourite topic - how stupid is it to run a 996 Cup on road tyres…. I just don't want to have to (can't) buy/store an SUV and a trailer. Also I'd rather be very uncomfortable on my way to a track than driven a bloody SUV with a trailer ….

Really? I find the trailer and SUV liberating. I am not thinking about how am I going to get this lump back home if I wipe it down the pit wall. Plus I can relax in my bath of a truck on the way home at 60mph!

couple of thoughts from my point of view
- to start with, I suspect I would need to do an additional license as mine only covers weight up to 3.5 tonnes (which I would exceed)
- I really do not have anywhere to store it
- It is quite expensive to buy a car and trailer just for this, the tow car would not be used for anything else
- In Germany we can travel at higher speeds - at 60mph getting anywhere will take ages
- If I wipe out, I will sit in a corner with a 6-pack of beer and not drive back myself anyway

I can understand why other people do it though, I regularly even see 991 GT3RS and the likes being towed to the track

[MDL111]

braddo said:

MDL111 said:

back to my favourite topic - how stupid is it to run a 996 Cup on road tyres…. I just don't want to have to (can't) buy/store an SUV and a trailer. Also I'd rather be very uncomfortable on my way to a track than driven a bloody SUV with a trailer ….

Have spoken to a shop and they think it is still possible to road reg one (even if they do not recommend it)

I'll take a stab and say a bit less camber and toe than a full race setup, plus an extra seat cushion and some earplugs for the road journeys and you're good to go.

Of course, you would want to watch the Top Gear episode where James May is in an Aston race car in Provence before you think about a Cup car for longer trips!

I was thinking open face helmet. I will certainly update all of you if I do it and possibly provide a video with sound of a road journey (and me cursing…).

First need to find a good car at a reasonable price and then jump through all the TÜV hoops …. by the time winter is over, call it beginning of April, I hopefully will have made progress. Already signed up for 2 track days in April.

[Steve Rance]

Good idea to buy a 996 Cup but I'd be inclined to keep it as is and find a way of getting it to the circuit.

[Steve Rance]

As an aside. back in 2005 I was asked to drive a 996RS at Rockingham in the first ever UK Time attack event. I think it was called the GT battle. There were lot of classes FWD, RWD, Mid, Pro etc.. The RS was standard other than 2 way adjustable dampers and some Brembo floating front discs. It looked really out of place amongst the heavily modified competition. Lots of crazy fire breathing GTR's etc.. and a beautifully developed ex 4wd Escort Cosworth rally car. The day was not at all what I was used to. All very 'Fast Ford' and pimplies wearing base ball caps. I think that we had a few sighting laps and 3 timed runs each. I remember someone saying 'you wont win anything in that Bro'. We ended up coming third overall and winning the RWD class. Beaten into second by a crazy GTR by a tenth I think. The Rally car won. Anyway, Nobody could believe that the GT3 was basically standard. It had a huge power defecit but was so quick through the corners. I just pumped the tyres up and drove home. I seem to remember a lot of blonde women with huge plastic breasts wobbling about on the podium.

A strange day but those who were there ended up having huge respect for the GT3.

[MDL111]

Steve Rance said:

Good idea to buy a 996 Cup but I'd be inclined to keep it as is and find a way of getting it to the circuit.

I tend to agree, but would like to try the other option first due to the hassle and cost involved (as well as not limiting myself only to track days where non-road-legal-cars/slicks are allowed). Can always decide to trailer it at a later stage and revert to original spec/setup. Judging by what most people tell me, I suspect that might well be on the cards.

[D.no]

Steve Rance said:

I seem to remember a lot of blonde women with huge plastic breasts wobbling about on the podium.

That would quite possibly be the ONLY thing I would remember clearly!

Great story as always Steve.

[Digga]

MDL111 said:

Steve Rance said:

Good idea to buy a 996 Cup but I'd be inclined to keep it as is and find a way of getting it to the circuit.

I tend to agree, but would like to try the other option first due to the hassle and cost involved (as well as not limiting myself only to track days where non-road-legal-cars/slicks are allowed). Can always decide to trailer it at a later stage and revert to original spec/setup. Judging by what most people tell me, I suspect that might well be on the cards.

I've done both. When I was competing a couple of offs persuaded me that, as Alfapork says it's good not to have to worry about how you're getting home from an event. On both occasions, I could just get back; one was at Loton Park and fellow competitors generously donated sufficient duct tape for me to do the shortish run home. I bent a front lower wishbone at Goodwood and that was not at all fun driving up the lorry tramlines on the A34.

One the other side, as you say, trailers are a right royal PITA. Not least having space to store them when not in use and that is safe (they get pinched here in the UK all the time). Loading and unloading is always time you will never get back too.

[MDL111]

is a late car much better than an early car - I found a write up by somebody that listed quite a few changes throughout the years (i.a. cable shifter, changes to the wing and nose, 6 piston calipers, shorter gearing 4-6 …)

early car example (prettier imo) - engine and tran 0 hours, new wheel bearings, new brakes - €52k spent on revision
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id...

or late car - rebuilt to 3.8 in 2013 plus trans rebuilt, since then supposedly c 2,200km, only 3 races in its early life, rest TDs, new suspension in 2017
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id...

Obviously will have a specialist check the car prior to purchase whichever I decide to go for. Also any thoughts on pricing of Cup cars, are they selling or are people a little optimistic with their asking prices. I am not 100% sure, but think these cars have been for sale for a while (the older one at least since mid last year). There is one road registered Cup for sale (now for c. 90k) that was for sale for ages in the low and high 60s - I think it must have been on the market at least for the last 1.5 years or so....

any input appreciated

[Slippydiff]

Steve Rance said:

As an aside. back in 2005 I was asked to drive a 996RS at Rockingham in the first ever UK Time attack event. I think it was called the GT battle. There were lot of classes FWD, RWD, Mid, Pro etc.. The RS was standard other than 2 way adjustable dampers and some Brembo floating front discs. It looked really out of place amongst the heavily modified competition. Lots of crazy fire breathing GTR's etc.. and a beautifully developed ex 4wd Escort Cosworth rally car. The day was not at all what I was used to. All very 'Fast Ford' and pimplies wearing base ball caps. I think that we had a few sighting laps and 3 timed runs each. I remember someone saying 'you wont win anything in that Bro'. We ended up coming third overall and winning the RWD class. Beaten into second by a crazy GTR by a tenth I think. The Rally car won. Anyway, Nobody could believe that the GT3 was basically standard. It had a huge power defecit but was so quick through the corners. I just pumped the tyres up and drove home. I seem to remember a lot of blonde women with huge plastic breasts wobbling about on the podium.

A strange day but those who were there ended up having huge respect for the GT3.

For the sake of clarification Steve, I think we first need to establish if it was the women wobbling on the podium, or their breasts ? The former would tend to indicate alcohol (or narcotics) had been consumed, or that the construction of the podium was in some way lacking in integrity, whereas the latter would tend to indicate excessive breast augmentation had been undertaken ...

Apologies for the long post in advance ....

Back on topic .... as you know Steve, any GT3/2/RS is pretty sharp tool out of the box, and with some subtle tweaks to the geo and spring/damper rates, you have what is effectively as close as is possible to get to a fully trimmed Cup car for the road.

Something as highly developed as the RS back then, would have been formidable against some of the relatively amateur built turbo nutter b*stard Time Attack creations, even if they were packing 5,6 or700 hp. As you'll be all too aware, the RS was the sharpest, most focused roadgoing iteration of the 996 Stuttgart produced, and with some decent rubber, dampers and you behind the wheel, it would be a formidable car on the right circuit. Four wheel drive and turbo grunt have their place (primarily on rally stages) but a properly engineered two/rear wheel drive car more often than not trumps them on track.

My first trackday was at Prodrive's proving ground/test track. I'd bought a UK Impreza 22B from a Subaru dealer and they'd organised a trackday event for their customers (Prodrive were running Subaru's World rally car team at the time).

Unfortunately in between buying the car, and getting/accepting the invite to the trackday, the all too rare Impreza was stolen and was never to be seen again.

With the insurance payout I went out and bought my first Porsche, a Midnight blue 964 RS. I rang the dealer I'd bought the Impreza off and asked if I could attend the trackday in the RS. "Of course" they replied.

I duly arrived at Prodrive's test track at 9.00, to find a phalanx of Impreza owners standing proudly by their WRX's, P1's and various other UK Impreza models (and a lone Escort Cosworth)



We were allowed to drive and learn the course in a PPP (Prodrive Performance Pack dontcha know ?) equipped bug eye Impreza, some 250hp, tweaked aero and bigger/wider wheels and tyres. As those that have owned them will know, the Impreza is easy to drive, and has a large surfeit of both corning grip and traction.

We did the track familiarisation with either a member of the staff from Prodrive or the sales guys from the Subaru dealer and one or two other attendees in the back seat, and after a couple of familiarisation laps, we swapped seats in the car, so you ended up driving two laps and passengering for at least four.

With that out of the way, we went to the drivers briefing on the skidpan. This was very informal and brief ...
And with that, we were let loose !!

This was my first trackday, so I was somewhat nervous as I watched what were clearly "regulars" putting their gloves and helmets on AND checking their tyre pressures !!

Nonetheless I was feeling a tiny bit smug in my Porschaaa 964 RS, and I tentatively ventured out onto the track.

Onto the main straight (a runway, as the Prodrive test facility is an ex WW2 airfield) and half way down it you entered a coned "chicane" an open 90 right which quickly led to a tighter 90 left, which then opened into a right hander that took you back onto the main track.



All these were negotiated without incident. The fast left and right hand sweepers leading to turn 1 likewise.
So I entered turn one at what I thought was reasonable pace (it was), what I wasn't prepared for was the huge amount of loose gravel covering it ....

In the confines of the well insulated, softly sprung, four wheel drive Impreza, this gravel wasn't a problem (truth be known, I and others hadn't not even noticed it on our sighting laps) but in the stiffly sprung, two wheel drive 964 (and a wet behind the ears, novice behind the wheel), massive oversteer was the order of the day, but this rapid lack of rear end grip wasn't expected, so no lightening fast "dab of oppo" was going to sort the problem ....

The ensuing pirouette was fast, long and if I do say so myself, really rather exhilarating as I headed across the wide open tarmac/gravel apron on the inside of the turn. But then my eye was caught by a very stout looking white, steel post 5 feet high and 6 inches in diameter, slap bang in the middle of the apron ...

That post may has well have been made from incredibly strong magnetic material, for as the 964 spun in a large graceful arc, it became horribly clear that I was headed directly for it, but worse still, it was going to hit the drivers side (the RS was LHD car) either right in the middle of the door, or just behind it.
The adrenaline of the spin immediately disappeared to be replaced my fear that :

A. This was probably going to hurt (I wasn't wearing a helmet, more of which later) and B. The car was going to be horrifically damaged. Suffice to say any trace of Porschaaaa induced smugness had long since disappeared.

And so I braced myself and waited what seemed an eternity for the inevitable impact (and whilst I did so, a thought went through my mind : "Who in god's name puts a f*cking 5 feet tall, 6" diameter steel pole in such stupid place ?"

When the impact arrived, it was truly shocking, not for it's intensity, but more the lack of it, for the "steel" pole hit just behind the drivers door and popped out of the ground and bounced (yes, I kid you not, bounced) at great speed across the open apron.

At that point it dawned on me that no one in their right mind sticks a 6" diameter, 5 foot high steel pole anywhere close to a high speed test track facility, but they might just use a plastic version ...

Having regained my composure, I got out to inspect the damage. Fortunately it was nothing more than a light scuff on the sill, which I polished out the following day.

Feeling somewhat sheepish, I got back in, harnessed up and headed back on track at greatly reduced speed. Less than a lap later I got black flagged....

I returned to the skid pan/paddock area to face the music, and as I pulled up, the clerk of the course walked up to meet me as I got out of the car.

"Was that you spinning like a top out there ?" Not sure whether to grin at him or eat humble pie and stare at my feet, I elected for the former. "Yes, I'm afraid it was, it's tad slippery out there"

"Well firstly, where's your crash helmet ?" I replied I didn't have one and that I'd signed my life away on the disclaimer we'd been made to sign when signing on.

"Ok, that's fine, but I'd suggest you buy one before you do another trackday". I willingly concurred.

"And secondly ..." Uh oh, here we go I thought.

"You've got a proper car there" and he looked me in the eye and winked "These aren't drivers, and they aren't proper cars" he said as he waved his hand in the direction of the massed Imprezas.

"You take it easy, enjoy the day and learn to drive that car, it's the real deal" and with that he shook my hand, wished me luck and walked off.

Over the duration of the morning, I learnt that "slow in fast out" was indeed the order of the day, and that even on gravel the stiffly sprung, 2 wheel/rear drive 911 was still incredibly grippy and controllable if driven sensibly.

Just before lunch I stopped lapping and went for a wander around the paddock, only to find several of the Impreza guys and the Escort Cosworth owner swapping their tyres from front to back and vice versa !!



Intrigued I watched them, and thought perhaps I should check the tyres on the RS. I sauntered back to the car and placed my hand on the tyres, sure they were hot, but showed no signs of overheating, excessive wear or delamination.

I returned to chat to the owner of the Escort Cosworth and he asked if I was driving the Porsche. I told him I was, to which he replied "It sounds absolutely epic when you come past" (I'd overtaken him on several occasions on the main straight)

I'd only got the car back from JZM a couple of days prior to the trackday, they'd fitted a new clutch, brake discs and pads, a decat pipe and remapped it. It'd showed a solid 285 hp on their rolling road. The previous owner had fitted a Cup pipe and the airbox had been drilled, little wonder it sounded so good ...

I asked the Escort owner if he'd like to have a lap or two in the passenger seat, "Really ?" he responded.
"Yeh of course" I replied.

So after lunch, off we went, a couple of gentle laps to warm everything up, before going for it. Down the main straight flat chat, the Escort owner clearly blown away by not just the performance, but the noise.

Braking hard from speed for the 90 right, he exclaimed how powerful the brakes felt, and with the car slowed down, we took the corner with ease, then a short squirt up to left hander, the entry speed perfect. As we reached the apex, I buried the throttle into the lightweight carpet, and we exited the corner in the most perfect opposite lock drift.

"Wow, I mean just wow, this thing is incredible" said my passenger. We continued around the lap, taking care not to spin on the gravel strewn Turn 1, before blasting off down the main straight once again.

At the end of the straight, I carried a bit more speed into the right hander, but still managed to get the car slowed sufficiently for the upcoming left hander. Now brimming with confidence, I got on the throttle a little bit too early, and before I knew it, we were passengers spinning down the course like a top, this time there were no poles to hit, and we spun to halt without hitting anything, the pair of us sat there giggling nervously... "I think I'm going have to sell the Cossie" my passenger responded.

The clerk of the course's word rang in my ears "You've got a proper car there, you take it easy, enjoy the day and learn to drive that car, it's the real deal"... I realised there and then I was onto (and driving) something very special indeed. Subsequent GT3/2/RS ownership has only served to confirm and reinforce those thoughts.

Brings a tear to my eyes looking at the photos of the old girl now





A 911 (any 911) is a special car, the GT3/2/RS (be they air or water cooled) are very special cars, but what's more, they're very special drivers cars.

Edit to add images (no digital nonsense back then !!)

Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 30th January 15:55

[Slippydiff]

MDL111 said:

is a late car much better than an early car - I found a write up by somebody that listed quite a few changes throughout the years (i.a. cable shifter, changes to the wing and nose, 6 piston calipers, shorter gearing 4-6 …)

early car example (prettier imo) - engine and tran 0 hours, new wheel bearings, new brakes - €52k spent on revision
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id...

or late car - rebuilt to 3.8 in 2013 plus trans rebuilt, since then supposedly c 2,200km, only 3 races in its early life, rest TDs, new suspension in 2017
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id...

Obviously will have a specialist check the car prior to purchase whichever I decide to go for. Also any thoughts on pricing of Cup cars, are they selling or are people a little optimistic with their asking prices. I am not 100% sure, but think these cars have been for sale for a while (the older one at least since mid last year). There is one road registered Cup for sale (now for c. 90k) that was for sale for ages in the low and high 60s - I think it must have been on the market at least for the last 1.5 years or so....

any input appreciated

996 porn pure and simple :