997/996 GT3 dynamics

Author
Discussion

Digga

26,071 posts

221 months

Friday 25th January
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Subjectively, I just don't like the interior of the 997; it somehow looks like a Honda to me. The 996 is ageing better in that regard.

Also, throw a 996 on BBS split rims into the discussion, and the exterior preference for the later car crumbles.



At which point, you have to acknowledge La Source has it right; you want both, although his garage is deficient because he doesn't have a Gen 1 997, just a Gen 2. First world problems. hehe

Steve Rance

4,834 posts

169 months

Friday 25th January
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cmoose said:
For me I find the 996 that little bit more transparent and connected, there's more unfiltered sense of the machine, while the 997 is a little more contrived and distant. On the other hand, the 997 is more polished and feels more sophisticated, the shell feels more solid. Those things do matter to me two, so it's a case of striking a balance.

I flit back and forth generally re 9x6 versus 9x7 and for me the key differences are largely uniform across the range, from a basic Box to the GT cars. At the moment I am back in a 9x7 car and feel like it might be the best overall compromise, even if there are elements of the 9x6 cars I miss. So my pick right now would be 997 GT3, probably gen 1 for the waspy 3.6 lump. Plop me behind the wheel of a 996.2 GT3, of course, and I will change my mind on that pretty quickly! I think in terms of being purely in the moment for the thrill of driving, the 996.2 GT3 would take it for me. But as an overall experience and ownership proposition in a single car, the 997 just pips it.

But I'd agree between them you're looking at the high water mark for modern combustion driver's cars. Despite huge progress in some areas, it's been net downhill since the last 997 GT3. I wouldn't take a manual 991 over my pick of the 996/7 options, that's for sure.
As an aside, I thought thst your piece on the 996RS that you drove was one of the best reviews of any car that i've read. You described the car's character very well

cmoose

43,577 posts

167 months

Friday 25th January
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Cheers. In terms of the pure driving experience on my favourite kind of B road, the 996RSes I have pedalled are probably my favourites. Just completely fantastic. When I imagine in my mind's eye how I want a car to feel and drive, it's basically 96RS. I bsaically have no thoughts along the lines of, oh, wish that aspect was a bit more this or that. Which is not the case with the 997 models, quite.

There's a bit more to the ownership proposition than that, of course, especially if you're not running a multi car garage that allows you to have cars with a very narrow remit. In that context, ie one car to do it all, the right 997 GT3 probably pips it for me.

n12maser

262 posts

30 months

Friday 25th January
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How easy is it to get a bogo 996 GT3 to feel and handle like an RS I wonder?

Slippydiff

10,090 posts

161 months

Friday 25th January
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n12maser said:
How easy is it to get a bogo 996 GT3 to feel and handle like an RS I wonder?
Whack on some 20% stiffer springs, drop 15mm out of the ride height, add some more negative camber, set the front toe to parallel, and you won’t be a million miles off.
That’s somewhat tongue in cheek, but all joking aside they’re really not that far removed from a “cooking” Mk 2, different front uprights, different rear subframes, tweaked damper and spring rates. Engine is a different matter, but chassis wise, not a million miles away.



Edited by Slippydiff on Friday 25th January 19:02

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TDT

1,218 posts

57 months

Friday 25th January
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n12maser said:
How easy is it to get a bogo 996 GT3 to feel and handle like an RS I wonder?
You can probably get close - but the RS does have different suspension mounting points which was the reason it was introduced anyway.. as an homologation run for the new mounting points for the updated race car.
Can you replicate that on a 'vanilla' GT3

Slippydiff

10,090 posts

161 months

Friday 25th January
quotequote all
TDT said:
You can probably get close - but the RS does have different suspension mounting points which was the reason it was introduced anyway.. as an homologation run for the new mounting points for the updated race car.
Can you replicate that on a 'vanilla' GT3
My understanding is those modified pick up points were indeed introduced to correct geometry deficiencies at race car ride heights, and by my reckoning that’s probably 30-40mm lower than you’d run ANY 996 GT3/RS on the road, so their influence on a roadgoing 996 GT3 RS set at the manufacturers recommended ride heights would be barely discernible. Over to you Steve smile

braddo

Original Poster:

6,181 posts

126 months

Friday 25th January
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evodarren said:
I I tried the DSC box. It did seem to soften the suspension a small bit but wasn't to impressed. I had the car set up at Centre Gravity before I fitted the box and the car felt great. To me it fely like I could feel what the car was doing better than with the box.
Interesting. I wonder how easy it is (for the DSC manufacturer) to program the module to simply have a single setting. So instead of the PASM damper stiffness being range 1 and range 2, the choice was simply stiffness 1 and stiffness 2. It would make them 2-stage passive dampers. It would be interesting to see how that might make the behaviour of the car more predictable.

evodarren

309 posts

72 months

Friday 25th January
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braddo said:
Interesting. I wonder how easy it is (for the DSC manufacturer) to program the module to simply have a single setting. So instead of the PASM damper stiffness being range 1 and range 2, the choice was simply stiffness 1 and stiffness 2. It would make them 2-stage passive dampers. It would be interesting to see how that might make the behaviour of the car more predictable.
My understanding from what some people have told me is the dsc box works better with regular 997 and turbo. Spring rates on Gt3 are quite a bit firmer and it’s hard to make the suspension ride soft over bumpier roads.

braddo

Original Poster:

6,181 posts

126 months

Friday 25th January
quotequote all
evodarren said:
My understanding from what some people have told me is the dsc box works better with regular 997 and turbo. Spring rates on Gt3 are quite a bit firmer and it’s hard to make the suspension ride soft over bumpier roads.
The GT3 solution to softening the ride over bumps is just to drive faster. laugh

evodarren

309 posts

72 months

Friday 25th January
quotequote all
braddo said:
The GT3 solution to softening the ride over bumps is just to drive faster. laugh
Lol true. Before Centre Gravity played with my car it used to skip and fly over the bumps. It was set up from the factory in its hardest setting . I used my car 90% on road so they set it up softer. It’s now lovely on a good uk country road.

Steve Rance

4,834 posts

169 months

Friday 25th January
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
My understanding is those modified pick up points were indeed introduced to correct geometry deficiencies at race car ride heights, and by my reckoning that’s probably 30-40mm lower than you’d run ANY 996 GT3/RS on the road, so their influence on a roadgoing 996 GT3 RS set at the manufacturers recommended ride heights would be barely discernible. Over to you Steve smile
Yep, the RS pick up points were homologated for the AMLMS and FIAGT championships to reduce bumpsteer. As Slippy says that really comes into play at the lower end of the ride height ranges so the benefit is marginal. On saying that there is a small difference in the feel of an RS which generally tend to feel more on tiptoes. However you can create the vast majority of the dynamics of an RS relatively simply from a stock 996GT3 and I still believe that this is where the smart money is spent. Let the collectors clamber over the 996RS and build something almost as good for half the price from a Cooking GT3.

LaSource

2,155 posts

146 months

Friday 25th January
quotequote all
n12maser said:
How easy is it to get a bogo 996 GT3 to feel and handle like an RS I wonder?
Slippydiff said:
My understanding is those modified pick up points were indeed introduced to correct geometry deficiencies at race car ride heights, and by my reckoning that’s probably 30-40mm lower than you’d run ANY 996 GT3/RS on the road, so their influence on a roadgoing 996 GT3 RS set at the manufacturers recommended ride heights would be barely discernible. Over to you Steve smile
Steve Rance said:
Yep, the RS pick up points were homologated for the AMLMS and FIAGT championships to reduce bumpsteer. As Slippy says that really comes into play at the lower end of the ride height ranges so the benefit is marginal. On saying that there is a small difference in the feel of an RS which generally tend to feel more on tiptoes. However you can create the vast majority of the dynamics of an RS relatively simply from a stock 996GT3 and I still believe that this is where the smart money is spent. Let the collectors clamber over the 996RS and build something almost as good for half the price from a Cooking GT3.
So much one could say on this thread...but for now, on this question.

To pretend to use exact science to a subjective answer, a 996 GT3 comfort feels 97% like a 996RS, a 996 GT3 clubsport about 98% (it does feel a tad stiffer than the comfort especially if a full cage is installed) of a 996RS.

If you are a committed driver on road or track you can upgrade the suspension on the 996 GT3 to make it 102% of a 996RS.

Naturally a 996RS is a very special car. When the delta premium of a 996RS over a 996GT3 used to be circa 30-40% many more people could make the decision to make the jump. Now that is more like 100%, it is a tough call for most. The 996RS is also more collectible now so most purchases are from collector types than driver types...but that is the way the market has gone.

Eyes closed (metaphorically and not actually!), I could tell which car I'm driving. The 996RS feels that little bit:
- lighter (~50kg),
- noisier (less sound deadening, perspex rear window),
- angrier (typically 10hp more than 996GT3),
- livelier (standard suspension and pickups designed for running at lower ride height)

However, all the above enhancements are in that 2% I mentioned earlier.

As I've posted here before, my 996GT3 with uprated brakes, diff (which needs doing on all GT3s), Nitron suspension, and good geo, not only feels better to me than a standard 6rs, but is also in my hands faster over a lap. Also, lets not forget that a car half the price will also gain 1-2 seconds of additional commitment by most people smile

So really it comes down to:
- if money no object, then the 996RS is king and for committed drivers one could apply the above enhancements to it
- if you are a collector of rare, unique, homologation cars, and if you can afford it, get the 996RS
- if you are a driver and just want a very analogue driving experience from a track car that was engineered for racing, then get a 996 GT3

....I think they are a bargain for what they do and will always grow in reputation in time (though truth be told the delta between a 996RS and 996GT3 will continue to grow) - I am ignoring the current softening of the market but talking longer term.

All imho of course.


Thread decoration....

The standard cars:


..and the 996RS killer: smile






Singh911

866 posts

179 months

Friday 25th January
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I'm nowhere near as capable a driver, not anywhere near as technical as others in here - here are some thoughts from just a driving perspective. .
I've have my 996.1 GT3 comfort with buckets and half cage for 15 years, came from a 993 which I had for 6 yrs. Will never sell it. It's standard apart from .2 GT3 brakes, manthey exhaust and rebuilt dampers/springs refreshed.
I used to do track days in it - now fewer but i do a lot more euro road trips in it.
Daily was a 987 now 981.
Drove the GT3 the other day, first time since September - differences are immense. From the 981 it's like stepping out if a "nice" car into a thoroughbred.
It feels like a car from a different era altogether. It's alive, throbbing at idle, impatient, chomping at the bit to be let off the leash.
Once warm, the engine note as you climb up the revs has a wonderfully harsh metallic, mechanical edge to it. It's addictive, even at sensible speeds you revel in how alive it feels - how alive it makes you feel. And that's priceless.
You feel everything through the steering as it wriggles around. You hear everything. An amazingly widely staged range of noise from the engine which varies at different revs like an orchestra. You wonder what your favourite bit is. So you wind it all up again to consider it further. So full of character. It's instantly responsive to inputs, the throttle, the steering. Like a big grown up go kart.
As an exercise in driving it's totally immersive, you can lose yourself in heeling and towing, blasting out of corners, feeling the weight moving for you. So many memorable drives get locked away in your mind. Seemingly mundane journeys can be transformed if the mood takes you. It's an event.
You feel as though this is a secret best kept untold. Often because you feel nobody else would understand - not in my social circle where everybody is driving the latest greatest paddle shifting turbo assisted bhp monster from Italy, These Shores or Germany.
It feels a bit like cheating. Nothing anywhere near the price range comes close.

cmoose

43,577 posts

167 months

Friday 25th January
quotequote all
Nice post.

LaSource

2,155 posts

146 months

Saturday 26th January
quotequote all
Singh911 said:
I'm nowhere near as capable a driver, not anywhere near as technical as others in here - here are some thoughts from just a driving perspective. .
I've have my 996.1 GT3 comfort with buckets and half cage for 15 years, came from a 993 which I had for 6 yrs. Will never sell it. It's standard apart from .2 GT3 brakes, manthey exhaust and rebuilt dampers/springs refreshed.
I used to do track days in it - now fewer but i do a lot more euro road trips in it.
Daily was a 987 now 981.
Drove the GT3 the other day, first time since September - differences are immense. From the 981 it's like stepping out if a "nice" car into a thoroughbred.
It feels like a car from a different era altogether. It's alive, throbbing at idle, impatient, chomping at the bit to be let off the leash.
Once warm, the engine note as you climb up the revs has a wonderfully harsh metallic, mechanical edge to it. It's addictive, even at sensible speeds you revel in how alive it feels - how alive it makes you feel. And that's priceless.
You feel everything through the steering as it wriggles around. You hear everything. An amazingly widely staged range of noise from the engine which varies at different revs like an orchestra. You wonder what your favourite bit is. So you wind it all up again to consider it further. So full of character. It's instantly responsive to inputs, the throttle, the steering. Like a big grown up go kart.
As an exercise in driving it's totally immersive, you can lose yourself in heeling and towing, blasting out of corners, feeling the weight moving for you. So many memorable drives get locked away in your mind. Seemingly mundane journeys can be transformed if the mood takes you. It's an event.
You feel as though this is a secret best kept untold. Often because you feel nobody else would understand - not in my social circle where everybody is driving the latest greatest paddle shifting turbo assisted bhp monster from Italy, These Shores or Germany.
It feels a bit like cheating. Nothing anywhere near the price range comes close.
Totally agree!
Yes, maybe a secret best kept untold smile
Quick, close the thread!

BrotherMouzone

2,073 posts

112 months

Saturday 26th January
quotequote all
Singh911 said:
..... GT3 stuff .....
Amen!

GT03ROB

6,936 posts

159 months

Saturday 26th January
quotequote all
I had always promised myself a Porsche 911 from before I held a license. So roll forward a few years (OK more like couple of decades) & the time was right to take the plunge. Why mess about go straight to the top… I was going to get a 911 Turbo. Went over to Porsche Reading, started talking & they explained about how the 997 was imminent. Anyhow took out their 996 Turbo demonstrator. To be honest it was is that it? Fast yeah… very fast. But somehow it wasn’t what I expected from a 911 (this was after all the first one I’d been in never mind driven). So after further discussion gave them a letter of intent on an 997 Turbo, which was due in a couple of years. This timeframe suited me.

Roll forward a couple of years, no news on the new 997s & I’m getting impatient so stroll down to a local indie dealer. There’s this guards red 911, with odd looking spoiler on the boot lid.

“Whats that then?”…”It’s a GT3”…
“Whats one of them” … “oh it’s a more basic 911, with better engine, that costs more”…..
“hmmm looks nice…can I take it out?” …”yeah sure”…..

So off I trundle for a drive ….. Oh boy…. that’s it… that’s what I thought a 911 should be…. having it. So I did. It had so much feeling, felt so alive. Those were in the days when 996 GT3’s had not got a huge fan club…. It was 18months old at 80% of list price. I really didn’t know what I’d bought, just liked the colour the appearance, but most importantly the way it felt.

Since then I’ve driven it at Silverstone, Bedford, Angelssey, Oulton, Cadwell, Spa & the Ring. Get a lap right at somewhere like Spa & the feeling is great. They can be pushed so hard & yet are so stable, but still with life, not skittish, but don’t feel like they are dead. Driving down a bumpy B road you sometimes feel like it is trying to throw you into the nearest bush, but you soon realise to not hold the wheel too firm, not fight it & it will sort itself out. Every time you push it to the red line the noise just makes you adopt a silly childish grin.

They still draw positive comments regarding the looks & guards red with the gold BBS split rims is simply the best combination out there!

The ride can be a bit firm, for normal road use if your passenger wants comfort. Wife maintains she needs to wear a sports bra if she has to go out in it!

Digga

26,071 posts

221 months

Saturday 26th January
quotequote all
Singh911 said:
I'm nowhere near as capable a driver, not anywhere near as technical as others in here - here are some thoughts from just a driving perspective. .
I've have my 996.1 GT3 comfort with buckets and half cage for 15 years, came from a 993 which I had for 6 yrs. Will never sell it. It's standard apart from .2 GT3 brakes, manthey exhaust and rebuilt dampers/springs refreshed.
I used to do track days in it - now fewer but i do a lot more euro road trips in it.
I'm pretty sure it's largely you fault. Is your car LHD? Did you do an RMA track day a a very wet Spa in 2006?

If it was you, sincere thanks for the pax lap. That was my first ever ride in a GT3 and really switched me on to what, exactly, a GT3 really is.
thumbup

braddo

Original Poster:

6,181 posts

126 months

Saturday 26th January
quotequote all
GT03ROB said:
... great stuff...
That reminds me that being a passenger in a guards red 996.2 GT3 being spanked and drifted around Snetterton was my first experience of a GT3. It was eye-opening. And nauseating by the end... thumbup

And my wife was regretting the lack of a sports bra in my car last weekend. hehe