911 ST backdate....

[blackmamba]

They are both very different cars. I have been lucky enough to have a good drive in both on excellent roads. The Tuthill car I drove feels more like a proper period Porsche. Think 2.7RS +++. All the sensations are the same just turned up. Engine, brakes, steering and chassis feel like a factory period car but better in all areas. The looks are more subdued, interior is purposeful rather than flash and the detailing is functional but well executed. I could easily have this as my only fun car and never want for anything else.

The Singer is a very different proposition. The build is much more exacting and the detailing quite superb. You can have pretty much anything you like in terms of finish, colour etc. Some of the details are too flashy for me but you can tone this down if you are spec’ing yourself. Even a basic finish would be quite obvious though - more obvious than I would like and attract a lot of attention. The performance is on another level though - the power is just amazing in terms of the delivery and it feels surprisingly usable. I think it is probably as good a 911 to drive as I have ever experienced with all the familiar traits a 911 should have.

I just can’t get my head around the price though. It will be close to 3x the Tuthill car when landed in the U.K. which is too much of an indulgence for someone like me. At the same money, I would have the Singer without doubt. I think it’s a tougher car to resell as well. Any hot rod has a smaller secondary market but my impression is that most Singer customers would prefer to have their own build rather than buy someone else’s unless heavily discounted. The used cars I have seen come to the market haven’t been that cheap and you would be very lucky to find one to your ideal spec as the choices are endless.

I thought you had gone for a Tuthill build?

[AndrewD]

blackmamba said:

They are both very different cars. I have been lucky enough to have a good drive in both on excellent roads. The Tuthill car I drove feels more like a proper period Porsche. Think 2.7RS +++. All the sensations are the same just turned up. Engine, brakes, steering and chassis feel like a factory period car but better in all areas. The looks are more subdued, interior is purposeful rather than flash and the detailing is functional but well executed. I could easily have this as my only fun car and never want for anything else.

The Singer is a very different proposition. The build is much more exacting and the detailing quite superb. You can have pretty much anything you like in terms of finish, colour etc. Some of the details are too flashy for me but you can tone this down if you are spec’ing yourself. Even a basic finish would be quite obvious though - more obvious than I would like and attract a lot of attention. The performance is on another level though - the power is just amazing in terms of the delivery and it feels surprisingly usable. I think it is probably as good a 911 to drive as I have ever experienced with all the familiar traits a 911 should have.

I just can’t get my head around the price though. It will be close to 3x the Tuthill car when landed in the U.K. which is too much of an indulgence for someone like me. At the same money, I would have the Singer without doubt. I think it’s a tougher car to resell as well. Any hot rod has a smaller secondary market but my impression is that most Singer customers would prefer to have their own build rather than buy someone else’s unless heavily discounted. The used cars I have seen come to the market haven’t been that cheap and you would be very lucky to find one to your ideal spec as the choices are endless.

I thought you had gone for a Tuthill build?

Thanks for that thoughtful response!
Yes I’m going with Tuthill. Anything you can have on a Singer you can do with Tuthill too, they have excellent trimmers etc and in the end you can spec pretty much anything inside and out. For me, it also benefits from tested engineering, drivetrain and suspension and so on. Even the loom is custom and taken from their tested rally cars that have been pretty much everywhere from arctic to desert. As you’ve noticed, the Tuthill also feels like a period 911 turned up to 11 (or whatever you want). This is not to detract from Singer, by asking the question I was trying to see how different the markets and buyers are.

[IMI A]

Have Tuthill not just been appointed to manufacture Singers in the UK?

[Blue62]

Taffy66 said:

In terms of appearance that is exactly what i'm after..

Same here, it may be a different car but it's very similar to the car I had inspected, up for £120k at the time. I wouldn't go as far as to suggest anything other than caveat emptor if anyone here is interested, as opposed to carpe diem!!

On a personal note, I have been cogitating over a backdate for so long that I have now come to the conclusion that it is too much of a gamble, lottery come resale and I'm worried that it won't be a keeper. There is a great thread somewhere (Rennlist?) by a guy who commissioned a car from Ninemeister in Warrington, who seem to have done a first class job but he sold it within months.

[Prestonese]

Saw this and thought of you chaps.

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1984-porsche-9...

I've seen a couple of RetroWorks cars near my office before and they are striking though probably not to all tastes. This one looks really nicely done to me. At least in the photos.

[RSVP911]

Prestonese said:

Saw this and thought of you chaps.

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1984-porsche-9...

I've seen a couple of RetroWorks cars near my office before and they are striking though probably not to all tastes. This one looks really nicely done to me. At least in the photos.

Buying a restomod is a minefield at the best of times , doing so via an auction site seems even riskier to me; you either bid blind or risk wasting loads of time and money checking a car that you have no idea that you can afford / will be able to buy - feels like hard work to me

[MrVert]

One problem with the resto-mods, is the explosion of 'garages' who have jumped into the market off the back of the rise in old Porsche car values. In 2012 /13 you could get a decent donor car for say £20 - £25k, spend £35k on it with shell, paint, engine, gearbox, interior etc and have a fab, bespoke car for £60k ish. And if done properly (Tutthill etc) they were and still are, fab cars.

Wind forward a couple of years, donor car costed £40k, conversion / upgrade costs £60k and you're into £100k territory....with loads of other options..

I had one of the fantastic Tutthill cars, kept it for 18 months and sold it for a decent profit, however with the current conversion costs, would doubt you'd even get your money back.

Having said that, I'd have another one in a heartbeat, as these narrow little 6 pot cars are truly something special, that nothing modern can come anywhere close to...

[blackmamba]

That is very true - costs have gone up considerably and it’s hard to do a proper job including donor cars for under £100k. And there is a big difference in a car build on a period correct shell using the correct parts as opposed to a cosmetic backdate running 80s running gear etc. There are lots of the later of varying quality which neither look or drive well on close inspection.

[RDMcG]

The problem is that there is no official spec for an ST. It was not a proper Porsche destination. There is a lot of variation from car to car and not even agreement as to how many were built. There is an outstanding article in the current edition of 000 magazine that lists the myriad of kits and variants that were supplied. I believe it is subscription only ( I subscribe) our for anyone serious about this variant it is a very good resource.

[Robbo66]

RDMcG said:

The problem is that there is no official spec for an ST. It was not a proper Porsche destination. There is a lot of variation from car to car and not even agreement as to how many were built. There is an outstanding article in the current edition of 000 magazine that lists the myriad of kits and variants that were supplied. I believe it is subscription only ( I subscribe) our for anyone serious about this variant it is a very good resource.

Beg to differ there a little. The yellow 2.5 ST I have was painstakingly period correct, NOS parts and off an original S shell. Being HTP certified in September to allow for classic competition in various guises.
Totally different drive to Olive, both offer a unique experience and can't really be compared.

[Steve Rance]

I think that if I were building a car, this is how i'd do it. A recreation in the true sense of the word.

The devil/value is in the detail in these cars. I love the idea of a pre impact car but unless it was something like your yellow car I'd stick to keeping the original identity of a car and building it to my own preferences. Everything is pretty much bolt on and you can end up with a very nice and relatively unmolested car

[IMI A]

Steve Rance said:

I think that if I were building a car, this is how i'd do it. A recreation in the true sense of the word.

The devil/value is in the detail in these cars. I love the idea of a pre impact car but unless it was something like your yellow car I'd stick to keeping the original identity of a car and building it to my own preferences. Everything is pretty much bolt on and you can end up with a very nice and relatively unmolested car

want a race!

[MrVert]

Steve Rance said:

I think that if I were building a car, this is how i'd do it. A recreation in the true sense of the word.

The devil/value is in the detail in these cars. I love the idea of a pre impact car but unless it was something like your yellow car I'd stick to keeping the original identity of a car and building it to my own preferences. Everything is pretty much bolt on and you can end up with a very nice and relatively unmolested car

Looks just perfect

[BertBert]

MrVert said:

Steve Rance said:

I think that if I were building a car, this is how i'd do it. A recreation in the true sense of the word.

The devil/value is in the detail in these cars. I love the idea of a pre impact car but unless it was something like your yellow car I'd stick to keeping the original identity of a car and building it to my own preferences. Everything is pretty much bolt on and you can end up with a very nice and relatively unmolested car

Looks just perfect

Nah, I think the springs are too saggy or too short, it's all dragging on the ground

[Taffy66]

Just spoke at length with Rick at 911 Retroworks in West yorkshire yesterday...I was very impressed with his attitude,knowledge and advice on building me my 911 Backdate next year..They seem to be running a very tight ship with a low cost base without any fancy facilities...This really impressed me and after coming back from France next month will consider asking them to commission me a nice 911..
I really like the Slate grey 'Le Mans' look however i also like their 993 GTR..Must do more research to decide what i want from this car...One thing i want is it needs to drive really well without the reliability issues of driving an old genuine classic. I spend most of my working life solving problems and putting up with hassle and breakdowns..My precious leisure time and hobbies need to be as hassle free as possible which is why i don't want to be driving around in a genuine old classic car..

[IMI A]

Taffy the RW front and rear arches look out of sync and make the car look heavy.









There's a fellow in Germany who's specifically building 993 backdates. Not quite as nice as Singer as I think they have that backdate shape nailed and have spent thousands of hours on the styling. Copies seem to look a bit heavier. If you watch the vid switch the subtitles on if you have no German - mentions Singer quite a bit

https://www.kaege-retro.de/en/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy1_frT3up4

[Cheib]

IMI A said:

Have Tuthill not just been appointed to manufacture Singers in the UK?

Richard Tuthill is helping with some of the development work on the Singer DLS, don’t think that extends to building cars in the UK but maybe that’s coming. He was interviewed by Chris Harris on his new “Collecting Cars” Podcast and was mentioned on that. Harris and Marino Franchetti are the two development drivers for the DLS alongside Mr Tuthill.

[hot66]

Those RW cars look vile

[SRT Hellcat]

hot66 said:

Those RW cars look vile

I would not go as far as vile. But the wheel arch shapes are just plain wrong

[Mintbird]

back bumper looks like it has been ran into also. not a fan.