PCCB out braked the steels last night on 5th gear.
Discussion
JayK12 said:
Beat my GT4 around Donington Park time yet? :P
I'm on rFactor2 now, good sim, my winter sorted before racing next year.
nope :-( while we both got faster and faster, you had me ……...I'm on rFactor2 now, good sim, my winter sorted before racing next year.
I just resigned up to iracing myself as I invested a lot of money in 2014 on tracks and cars and the black Friday deal made me go back to that sim as you keep all the cars and tracks you bought before hand.
Porsche911R said:
JayK12 said:
Beat my GT4 around Donington Park time yet? :P
I'm on rFactor2 now, good sim, my winter sorted before racing next year.
nope :-( while we both got faster and faster, you had me ……...I'm on rFactor2 now, good sim, my winter sorted before racing next year.
I just resigned up to iracing myself as I invested a lot of money in 2014 on tracks and cars and the black Friday deal made me go back to that sim as you keep all the cars and tracks you bought before hand.
Digga said:
Porsche911R said:
JayK12 said:
Beat my GT4 around Donington Park time yet? :P
I'm on rFactor2 now, good sim, my winter sorted before racing next year.
nope :-( while we both got faster and faster, you had me ……...I'm on rFactor2 now, good sim, my winter sorted before racing next year.
I just resigned up to iracing myself as I invested a lot of money in 2014 on tracks and cars and the black Friday deal made me go back to that sim as you keep all the cars and tracks you bought before hand.
I use Trak Racer RS6 rig, Fanatec CSL wheel, Fanatec Clubsport pedals, PC (mid spec, i5, 32gb ram, ssd x2, gtx1060 6gb), Oculus Rift CV1. I play Assetto Corsa or rFactor2. Iracing is probably the best but costly.
Porsche911R said:
JayK12 said:
Beat my GT4 around Donington Park time yet? :P
I'm on rFactor2 now, good sim, my winter sorted before racing next year.
nope :-( while we both got faster and faster, you had me ……...I'm on rFactor2 now, good sim, my winter sorted before racing next year.
I just resigned up to iracing myself as I invested a lot of money in 2014 on tracks and cars and the black Friday deal made me go back to that sim as you keep all the cars and tracks you bought before hand.
JayK12 said:
David uses similar but higher end stuff than me.
I use Trak Racer RS6 rig, Fanatec CSL wheel, Fanatec Clubsport pedals, PC (mid spec, i5, 32gb ram, ssd x2, gtx1060 6gb), Oculus Rift CV1. I play Assetto Corsa or rFactor2. Iracing is probably the best but costly.
I use Trak Racer RS6 rig, Fanatec CSL wheel, Fanatec Clubsport pedals, PC (mid spec, i5, 32gb ram, ssd x2, gtx1060 6gb), Oculus Rift CV1. I play Assetto Corsa or rFactor2. Iracing is probably the best but costly.
Do you find it helps actual track driving or is it something you have to 'forget'? I stopped years back with the PS2, because I felt it was close, but not quite right and at times, made it a bit harder to adapt to driving actual circuits.
Digga said:
JayK12 said:
David uses similar but higher end stuff than me.
I use Trak Racer RS6 rig, Fanatec CSL wheel, Fanatec Clubsport pedals, PC (mid spec, i5, 32gb ram, ssd x2, gtx1060 6gb), Oculus Rift CV1. I play Assetto Corsa or rFactor2. Iracing is probably the best but costly.
I use Trak Racer RS6 rig, Fanatec CSL wheel, Fanatec Clubsport pedals, PC (mid spec, i5, 32gb ram, ssd x2, gtx1060 6gb), Oculus Rift CV1. I play Assetto Corsa or rFactor2. Iracing is probably the best but costly.
Do you find it helps actual track driving or is it something you have to 'forget'? I stopped years back with the PS2, because I felt it was close, but not quite right and at times, made it a bit harder to adapt to driving actual circuits.
Yellow491 said:
Howmuch is a reasonable sim set up,like to keep my reaction time up through the winter.,less injures than 5 aside touch rugby.
Whats recomended.
Roughly my spec:Whats recomended.
- PC £700 - £1000
- Rig - £500 (Trak Racer RS6)
- Wheel and Pedals (Fanatec) starting at £500 ish
- VR headset £300 ish i think. (Oculus Rift CV1)
I'm building a few mid range PC's all pre loaded ready to go for a few friends and there not new, but lighty used parts and they come in at £700 ish.
You can find alot of stuff on ebay. I've not brought anything new, and saved half the cost probably, and everything is running strong for a number of years.
VR headsets make it for me, the immersion so real like. Heres a video of a league race from my cockpit view using my headset, you see what i see throughout the race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9IcTwEQnxk
Edited by JayK12 on Thursday 21st November 14:05
JayK12 said:
Yellow491 said:
Howmuch is a reasonable sim set up,like to keep my reaction time up through the winter.,less injures than 5 aside touch rugby.
Whats recomended.
Roughly my spec:Whats recomended.
- PC £700 - £1000
- Rig - £500 (Trak Racer RS6)
- Wheel and Pedals (Fanatec) starting at £500 ish
- VR headset £300 ish i think. (Oculus Rift CV1)
I'm building a few mid range PC's all pre loaded ready to go for a few friends and there not new, but lighty used parts and they come in at £700 ish.
You can find alot of stuff on ebay. I've not brought anything new, and saved half the cost probably, and everything is running strong for a number of years.
VR headsets make it for me, the immersion so real like. Heres a video of a league race from my cockpit view using my headset, you see what i see throughout the race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9IcTwEQnxk
At work, I use a spec very similar to game 'spec' for 3D CAD. Complex models and renders need a similarly high specification graphics card to games, and the price now is very reasonable.
Digga said:
JayK12 said:
Yellow491 said:
Howmuch is a reasonable sim set up,like to keep my reaction time up through the winter.,less injures than 5 aside touch rugby.
Whats recomended.
Roughly my spec:Whats recomended.
- PC £700 - £1000
- Rig - £500 (Trak Racer RS6)
- Wheel and Pedals (Fanatec) starting at £500 ish
- VR headset £300 ish i think. (Oculus Rift CV1)
I'm building a few mid range PC's all pre loaded ready to go for a few friends and there not new, but lighty used parts and they come in at £700 ish.
You can find alot of stuff on ebay. I've not brought anything new, and saved half the cost probably, and everything is running strong for a number of years.
VR headsets make it for me, the immersion so real like. Heres a video of a league race from my cockpit view using my headset, you see what i see throughout the race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9IcTwEQnxk
At work, I use a spec very similar to game 'spec' for 3D CAD. Complex models and renders need a similarly high specification graphics card to games, and the price now is very reasonable.
Edited by JayK12 on Thursday 21st November 16:54
JayK12 said:
Digga said:
JayK12 said:
Yellow491 said:
Howmuch is a reasonable sim set up,like to keep my reaction time up through the winter.,less injures than 5 aside touch rugby.
Whats recomended.
Roughly my spec:Whats recomended.
- PC £700 - £1000
- Rig - £500 (Trak Racer RS6)
- Wheel and Pedals (Fanatec) starting at £500 ish
- VR headset £300 ish i think. (Oculus Rift CV1)
I'm building a few mid range PC's all pre loaded ready to go for a few friends and there not new, but lighty used parts and they come in at £700 ish.
You can find alot of stuff on ebay. I've not brought anything new, and saved half the cost probably, and everything is running strong for a number of years.
VR headsets make it for me, the immersion so real like. Heres a video of a league race from my cockpit view using my headset, you see what i see throughout the race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9IcTwEQnxk
At work, I use a spec very similar to game 'spec' for 3D CAD. Complex models and renders need a similarly high specification graphics card to games, and the price now is very reasonable.
Porsche911R said:
as for racing, most racing in real life again to watch is dull, be it F1, clios, 911 cups, the guy who is fastest in all formats ie the one with the most poles is in the main leading the championship, be it Pro, pro am or rookie !!!
good battles are few and far between in all formats of racing, and I have been looking up results in all formats and it rings true the pole sitters are the championship leaders.
You don't half know how claim a load of nonsense as usual. A very simple check for this year seems to suggest Charles Leclerc has 7 pole positions vs 4 for Lewis Hamilton and is currently absolutely nowhere near leading the championship. In fact, shock and horror and further look also reveals Valteri Bottas has more pole positions than the person who has already won the championhip.good battles are few and far between in all formats of racing, and I have been looking up results in all formats and it rings true the pole sitters are the championship leaders.
Porsche911R said:
I will goto Spa in 2020 with a PH group no issue for fun, and I won't be the fastest as I don't push my £135k car on track and I don't have the balls to drive Blancimont at >160mph or the balls to do Eau-rouge at speed, and the track knowlege to do Pouhon right, and I have a metal block at 14 due to a wall being right in front of you so slow down way too much.
it's that simple, I know where I am slow at Spa, fixing that will be VERY hard and need more than 1 visit, bigger balls and some one else PDK RS to drive and allow me to right off. I will offer to drive Taffys RS WP car and give him a lift home in mine ;-)
I have no issue being the slowest on a PH meet up, I just want to goto Spa in my manual GT3 for fun with people who enjoy cars and if we can all learn something on the way that's great.
If track driving is so bloody basic and simple as you claim why are you worried about crashing as you would simply not get something so easy wrong....? it's that simple, I know where I am slow at Spa, fixing that will be VERY hard and need more than 1 visit, bigger balls and some one else PDK RS to drive and allow me to right off. I will offer to drive Taffys RS WP car and give him a lift home in mine ;-)
I have no issue being the slowest on a PH meet up, I just want to goto Spa in my manual GT3 for fun with people who enjoy cars and if we can all learn something on the way that's great.
C4ME said:
There are two sets of people arguing two different things here which seems to be causing confusion. Some are talking about how mass effects the minimum braking distance achievable and some are talking about the work the brakes have to do and both are calling it braking. I tried to sum it up in these two points
The second point is when adding extra mass it is going to take more energy to stop the car. This means the brakes have to do more work and will generate more heat doing that.
For a particular speed; if the shortest distance you can stop a 1000kg car without locking up is 30 meters then you can also stop a 2000kg car in the same distance (approx) without locking up. To do so you will need to apply twice as much braking force to the 2000kg car and twice as much heat will be generated in the brakes. If the brakes cannot achieve twice the braking force the 2000kg car will take longer to stop.
Now you'll really going to trigger the people who have supposedly understood the above differently at age 10....- A heavier car (increased mass) does not change the minimum braking distance as it increases tire to road friction but has more mass to stop and they cancel each other out.
- A heavier car (increased mass) takes more energy to stop than a lighter car.
The second point is when adding extra mass it is going to take more energy to stop the car. This means the brakes have to do more work and will generate more heat doing that.
For a particular speed; if the shortest distance you can stop a 1000kg car without locking up is 30 meters then you can also stop a 2000kg car in the same distance (approx) without locking up. To do so you will need to apply twice as much braking force to the 2000kg car and twice as much heat will be generated in the brakes. If the brakes cannot achieve twice the braking force the 2000kg car will take longer to stop.
C4ME said:
In conclusion ...
You have only stated the linear kinetic energy. You also have the rotational kinetic energy of the wheels and discs which is more difficult to calculate as you need to know the moment of inertia. A car with a higher MOI wheels and discs (higher weight wheels or steel discs) will require more work to stop in the same distance. I'd have to dig out some old course books to be sure but from memory for a normal road car the rotational KE of the wheels can be around 5% of the total kinetic energy. - The speed when you start braking has the main affect on the minimum braking distance achievable (by the speed squared).
- A heavier car (increased mass) does not change the minimum braking distance as it increases tire to road friction but has more mass to stop and they cancel each other out.
- Aero downforce reduces the minimum braking distance because it increases tire to road friction without increasing mass.
- The speed when you start braking has the main affect on the energy required to stop the car (by the speed squared).
- A heavier car (increased mass) takes more energy to stop than a lighter car.
- Aero downforce does not change the amount of energy required to stop the car.
- For a car of a certain mass travelling at a certain speed the kinetic energy the car contains = 0.5 x mass x speed squared.
- To stop a car all the kinetic energy in the car has to be turned into thermal energy (heat) by the friction of the pads on the disks.
Edited by C4ME on Wednesday 20th November 21:12
Your theory is otherwise sound but only from a theoretical point of view! The reality of stopping from a high speed is that tyres are not always the limiting factor, as shown in the 5th gear video. And the friction factor is not a constant with increased load. Also aero down force generates drag which will change the amount of energy to stop the car - think about DRS in F1.
Edited by Nuttcase on Thursday 21st November 19:32
C4ME said:
There are two sets of people arguing two different things here which seems to be causing confusion. Some are talking about how mass effects the minimum braking distance achievable and some are talking about the work the brakes have to do and both are calling it braking. I tried to sum it up in these two points
The second point is when adding extra mass it is going to take more energy to stop the car. This means the brakes have to do more work and will generate more heat doing that.
For a particular speed; if the shortest distance you can stop a 1000kg car without locking up is 30 meters then you can also stop a 2000kg car in the same distance (approx) without locking up. To do so you will need to apply twice as much braking force to the 2000kg car and twice as much heat will be generated in the brakes. If the brakes cannot achieve twice the braking force the 2000kg car will take longer to stop.
Thank you for taking the time to set out the issues so clearly. Your earlier bullet point post was also very helpful.- A heavier car (increased mass) does not change the minimum braking distance as it increases tire to road friction but has more mass to stop and they cancel each other out.
- A heavier car (increased mass) takes more energy to stop than a lighter car.
The second point is when adding extra mass it is going to take more energy to stop the car. This means the brakes have to do more work and will generate more heat doing that.
For a particular speed; if the shortest distance you can stop a 1000kg car without locking up is 30 meters then you can also stop a 2000kg car in the same distance (approx) without locking up. To do so you will need to apply twice as much braking force to the 2000kg car and twice as much heat will be generated in the brakes. If the brakes cannot achieve twice the braking force the 2000kg car will take longer to stop.
Edited by C4ME on Thursday 21st November 15:19
One or two points if I may.
Reference to “mass” I take to include mass and gravitational acceleration (mass in a physics sense being a measure of inertia).
The physics says the Frictional force is equal to µR and is independent of area. Why do we fit wider tyres to increase grip?
Some posters have suggested it is not possible to lock a wheel at high speed. Surely as long as the clamping forces in the braking system are greater than the static frictional forces between the tyre and the road the wheel should lock. That said if the aero component of the reaction R is a function of the square of the speed then clearly at high speed correspondingly higher clamping forces would be required to lock the wheel that with unassisted brakes may be unachievable.
lowndes said:
The physics says the Frictional force is equal to µR and is independent of area. Why do we fit wider tyres to increase grip?
Some posters have suggested it is not possible to lock a wheel at high speed. Surely as long as the clamping forces in the braking system are greater than the static frictional forces between the tyre and the road the wheel should lock. That said if the aero component of the reaction R is a function of the square of the speed then clearly at high speed correspondingly higher clamping forces would be required to lock the wheel that with unassisted brakes may be unachievable.
If I may (despite being repeatedly told I'm deluded and have a lower understanding of physics than a 10 year old), I'll attempt an answer at both of these which to be best of my very limited knowledge is correct. One can decide how much or otherwise to believe the below Some posters have suggested it is not possible to lock a wheel at high speed. Surely as long as the clamping forces in the braking system are greater than the static frictional forces between the tyre and the road the wheel should lock. That said if the aero component of the reaction R is a function of the square of the speed then clearly at high speed correspondingly higher clamping forces would be required to lock the wheel that with unassisted brakes may be unachievable.
- There is an adhesive element to tyre friction that is not taken into account of the (rather basic) physics model (coulumb) I assume you are referring to. Also there's an aspect to wider tyres having less tyre 'twist' in generating grip from slip angle.
- Yes that is exactly the case, if the clamping forces are big enough you can and will lock at tyre at very high speeds but the forces required to do so are very large and may not be possible.
Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 21st November 20:00
Nuttcase said:
You have only stated the linear kinetic energy. You also have the rotational kinetic energy of the wheels and discs which is more difficult to calculate as you need to know the moment of inertia. A car with a higher MOI wheels and discs (higher weight wheels or steel discs) will require more work to stop in the same distance. I'd have to dig out some old course books to be sure but from memory for a normal road car the rotational KE of the wheels can be around 5% of the total kinetic energy.
Your theory is otherwise sound but only from a theoretical point of view! The reality of stopping from a high speed is that tyres are not always the limiting factor, as shown in the 5th gear video. And the friction factor is not a constant with increased load. Also aero down force generates drag which will change the amount of energy to stop the car - think about DRS in F1.
Yes you are right there is other stuff contributing too. Air resistance increases by the square of the speed so can be significant at high speed.Your theory is otherwise sound but only from a theoretical point of view! The reality of stopping from a high speed is that tyres are not always the limiting factor, as shown in the 5th gear video. And the friction factor is not a constant with increased load. Also aero down force generates drag which will change the amount of energy to stop the car - think about DRS in F1.
Edited by C4ME on Thursday 21st November 21:17
lowndes said:
...Some posters have suggested it is not possible to lock a wheel at high speed. Surely as long as the clamping forces in the braking system are greater than the static frictional forces between the tyre and the road the wheel should lock. That said if the aero component of the reaction R is a function of the square of the speed then clearly at high speed correspondingly higher clamping forces would be required to lock the wheel that with unassisted brakes may be unachievable.
Speed is the real killer because energy is determined by speed squared and therefore you need massive brakes to lockup at very high speed. There will also be a massive heat dump into the brake components to do so. There are other considerations to how fast you can brake such as deceleration g-force and the strain on the driver, suspension and other parts of the car. Edited by C4ME on Friday 22 November 09:22
Digga said:
rice of a good PC has really come down.
At work, I use a spec very similar to game 'spec' for 3D CAD. Complex models and renders need a similarly high specification graphics card to games, and the price now is very reasonable.
prices are the same I find, you just get better kit. as for 3D CAD for can buy a £10k GPU alone and run the new i9 !!!At work, I use a spec very similar to game 'spec' for 3D CAD. Complex models and renders need a similarly high specification graphics card to games, and the price now is very reasonable.
This is what I do for a living, build bespoke CAD PC's and business PC's at high levels.
A specs go up with software prices need to go up with hardware. other wise that 3D renders going to take all day !
CPU's MB etc etc are all the same prices as they have ever been imo.
Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff