Mr Harris has a new “Touring”.
Discussion
Geoff39GL said:
The current Cup 2's are a lot better than the originals and as Hunter says you need to drive to the conditions, a bit more distance to the car in front a bit slower, just being sensible. I have never found the cup's a problem on my GT4 and have driven in some pretty bad storms, to be honest I did not have any problems with the original Cup's on my RS I was just careful.
Drive to the conditions taking into account you don't have a lot of tread to clear water.
You still won’t stop if the car infront does and is on winter tyres.Drive to the conditions taking into account you don't have a lot of tread to clear water.
Is what it is. You either take the risk or don’t run them.
Leaving 4 seconds will not help you in this weather.
I had a kid bounce off my bonnet about 3 years back, it’s very scary, lucky I was going 25mph and the car stopped on it’s nose as I noticed him walk out, most cars/ people would have ran him over. His mum was very thankful I stopped, I was a wrek of nerves when a kid bounces off and then disappears under the car.
It only takes 1 accident to in 60years of driving to kill some one
I fit the best tyres and the best brakes/ pads to all my cars. I like brakes.
When I picked up my 996 GT3 with worn tyres it aquaplaned at only 50mph on the A50. There was a guy on a current thread spun his Boxster in the wet.
Cup twos are better than the cup I had on my CSL but are not a safe road tyre now it’s very cold and very wet, you cannot drive to that if you are involved or need to avoid a potential accident.
Even in 7oc and standing water you are totally screwed, I drove to Porsche like this at about 30mph, I then refused the engineer to test drive my car and they agreed they did not want to drive my car in this weather either. They really don’t cope with heavy rain with no tyre temps. You cannot drive to that, Infact you prey nothing happens on your journey that you need to stop in a hurry.
Scary stuff when the front lifts on top of the water and you have zero steering and this be as low as 40mph.
All depends on the risks you want to take and luck esp when you see 30 car pile up on motorways !!, you might never come across one, and you might never have a kid walk out, sadly I have come across both and avoided a crash or killing some one.
I switched my 3RS to PS4S front, PS4 rear (all Porsche could get) last for winter 2018, and actually drove on track a lot of late-2018, early-2019 in them too, eg I drove to Spa and the weather was horrendous so with Cup 2s I'd likely not have even got there 
They were pretty comparable but a lot softer coming out of corners.
When I put the cup 2s back on I remembered just how good the car is.
This year I haven't bothered changing the tyres and have been driving my 4S instead.
They were pretty comparable but a lot softer coming out of corners.
When I put the cup 2s back on I remembered just how good the car is.
This year I haven't bothered changing the tyres and have been driving my 4S instead.
Porsche911R said:
Geoff39GL said:
The current Cup 2's are a lot better than the originals and as Hunter says you need to drive to the conditions, a bit more distance to the car in front a bit slower, just being sensible. I have never found the cup's a problem on my GT4 and have driven in some pretty bad storms, to be honest I did not have any problems with the original Cup's on my RS I was just careful.
Drive to the conditions taking into account you don't have a lot of tread to clear water.
You still won’t stop if the car infront does and is on winter tyres.Drive to the conditions taking into account you don't have a lot of tread to clear water.
Is what it is. You either take the risk or don’t run them.
Leaving 4 seconds will not help you in this weather.
I had a kid bounce off my bonnet about 3 years back, it’s very scary, lucky I was going 25mph and the car stopped on it’s nose as I noticed him walk out, most cars/ people would have ran him over. His mum was very thankful I stopped, I was a wrek of nerves when a kid bounces off and then disappears under the car.
It only takes 1 accident to in 60years of driving to kill some one
I fit the best tyres and the best brakes/ pads to all my cars. I like brakes.
When I picked up my 996 GT3 with worn tyres it aquaplaned at only 50mph on the A50. There was a guy on a current thread spun his Boxster in the wet.
Cup twos are better than the cup I had on my CSL but are not a safe road tyre now it’s very cold and very wet, you cannot drive to that if you are involved or need to avoid a potential accident.
Even in 7oc and standing water you are totally screwed, I drove to Porsche like this at about 30mph, I then refused the engineer to test drive my car and they agreed they did not want to drive my car in this weather either. They really don’t cope with heavy rain with no tyre temps. You cannot drive to that, Infact you prey nothing happens on your journey that you need to stop in a hurry.
Scary stuff when the front lifts on top of the water and you have zero steering and this be as low as 40mph.
All depends on the risks you want to take and luck esp when you see 30 car pile up on motorways !!, you might never come across one, and you might never have a kid walk out, sadly I have come across both and avoided a crash or killing some one.
You can quote examples such as above and I can understand how you would feel having a child run out and bounce of your bonnet, but that could happen to anyone in any car, sometimes you may stand a chance of stopping sometimes it would be totally out of your control.
Situations like that you cannot legislate for.
A number of years ago I was following someone who had an horrific accident with another vehicle, was trapped in his car, severed his foot and ultimately died, it was horrible and I was lucky not to be involved, first on the scene and trying to deal with the situation.
On Thursday I was returning with my new GT4 on Cup2's from the local dealership to home approx 6 miles (4 miles on dual carriageway) it was absolutely throwing it down, dangerous in any car and the cars around me were doing 70 plus mph running as close as they would in dry conditions, it was scary for anyone on the road and it was clear how pileups occur.
You slow down, keep your wits about you, watch as much of the road as far as you can see to try and counter what looks to be the inevitable.
I don't want to be involved in anything similar to what I witnessed above, as you get older you are more aware of fear, the fear of what can happen,
I drive to the conditions it does not mean I won't be involved in an accident but I try to minimise the probability.
Cup 2 tyres are road legal if they were dangerous Michelin would not be allowed to sell them and Porsche would not be fitting them. It does not say anywhere you cannot use them in the winter or below certain temperatures. You will find drivers with tyres showing 1.5mm of tread depth driving at 70mph in the rain totally unaware of the risks. At least we understand what our tyres are capable of in the wet.
Edited by Geoff39GL on Sunday 19th January 21:29
Gotta say I've done 500 miles this week on new Cup2's on my 996GT3, no traction control. 200 mile schlep on the motorway to RPM and back in terrible weather, and then a further 300 in very cold but (mainly) dry conditions for a blat across mid-Wales yesterday.
I thought they'd be awful especially below 6deg but I was very surprised. The cup2s replaced some good condition PS2s and I would say they are no worse in cold and wet conditions.
I'm sure PS4/PS4S will be better, but really I am not sure what all the fuss is about on Cup2s in winter. Drive to the conditions like you would in any car. They're not a handful.
I thought they'd be awful especially below 6deg but I was very surprised. The cup2s replaced some good condition PS2s and I would say they are no worse in cold and wet conditions.
I'm sure PS4/PS4S will be better, but really I am not sure what all the fuss is about on Cup2s in winter. Drive to the conditions like you would in any car. They're not a handful.
alfapork said:
Gotta say I've done 500 miles this week on new Cup2's on my 996GT3, no traction control. 200 mile schlep on the motorway to RPM and back in terrible weather, and then a further 300 in very cold but (mainly) dry conditions for a blat across mid-Wales yesterday.
I thought they'd be awful especially below 6deg but I was very surprised. The cup2s replaced some good condition PS2s and I would say they are no worse in cold and wet conditions.
I'm sure PS4/PS4S will be better, but really I am not sure what all the fuss is about on Cup2s in winter. Drive to the conditions like you would in any car. They're not a handful.
Ps2 was a sI thought they'd be awful especially below 6deg but I was very surprised. The cup2s replaced some good condition PS2s and I would say they are no worse in cold and wet conditions.
I'm sure PS4/PS4S will be better, but really I am not sure what all the fuss is about on Cup2s in winter. Drive to the conditions like you would in any car. They're not a handful.
t winter tyre though, ! Ps4s is night and day better in the wet even over the old super sport.Geoff39GL said:
Sorry David I disagree.
You can quote examples such as above and I can understand how you would feel having a child run out and bounce of your bonnet, but that could happen to anyone in any car, sometimes you may stand a chance of stopping sometimes it would be totally out of your control.
Situations like that you cannot legislate for.
A number of years ago I was following someone who had an horrific accident with another vehicle, was trapped in his car, severed his foot and ultimately died, it was horrible and I was lucky not to be involved, first on the scene and trying to deal with the situation.
On Thursday I was returning with my new GT4 on Cup2's from the local dealership to home approx 6 miles (4 miles on dual carriageway) it was absolutely throwing it down, dangerous in any car and the cars around me were doing 70 plus mph running as close as they would in dry conditions, it was scary for anyone on the road and it was clear how pileups occur.
You slow down, keep your wits about you, watch as much of the road as far as you can see to try and counter what looks to be the inevitable.
I don't want to be involved in anything similar to what I witnessed above, as you get older you are more aware of fear, the fear of what can happen,
I drive to the conditions it does not mean I won't be involved in an accident but I try to minimise the probability.
Cup 2 tyres are road legal if they were dangerous Michelin would not be allowed to sell them and Porsche would not be fitting them. It does not say anywhere you cannot use them in the winter or below certain temperatures. You will find drivers with tyres showing 1.5mm of tread depth driving at 70mph in the rain totally unaware of the risks. At least we understand what our tyres are capable of in the wet.
Very good post.You can quote examples such as above and I can understand how you would feel having a child run out and bounce of your bonnet, but that could happen to anyone in any car, sometimes you may stand a chance of stopping sometimes it would be totally out of your control.
Situations like that you cannot legislate for.
A number of years ago I was following someone who had an horrific accident with another vehicle, was trapped in his car, severed his foot and ultimately died, it was horrible and I was lucky not to be involved, first on the scene and trying to deal with the situation.
On Thursday I was returning with my new GT4 on Cup2's from the local dealership to home approx 6 miles (4 miles on dual carriageway) it was absolutely throwing it down, dangerous in any car and the cars around me were doing 70 plus mph running as close as they would in dry conditions, it was scary for anyone on the road and it was clear how pileups occur.
You slow down, keep your wits about you, watch as much of the road as far as you can see to try and counter what looks to be the inevitable.
I don't want to be involved in anything similar to what I witnessed above, as you get older you are more aware of fear, the fear of what can happen,
I drive to the conditions it does not mean I won't be involved in an accident but I try to minimise the probability.
Cup 2 tyres are road legal if they were dangerous Michelin would not be allowed to sell them and Porsche would not be fitting them. It does not say anywhere you cannot use them in the winter or below certain temperatures. You will find drivers with tyres showing 1.5mm of tread depth driving at 70mph in the rain totally unaware of the risks. At least we understand what our tyres are capable of in the wet.
Edited by Geoff39GL on Sunday 19th January 21:29
Taffy66 said:
Very good post.
It is and I know the poster well.But there are guildlines on these tyres even in the manual to take care below 7oc and we all know when temps get to freezing the CUP give up hope. Standing water they are next to useless. They cope with rain ok over my CSL, but add in freezing temps standing water no heat, game over imo. I won't risk it myself. after the drive I did that day to my OPC. (the same day you did in it your 458) all 3 matched up to offer zero grip what so ever.
I just rather be in a car which can stop faster than the car in front.
As I said you can have your wits about you but even a 4 second gap will vanish in this weather on a CUP 2 if the car in front is on winters which have gained more popular these days.
so it's a luck/risk think imo not driving to the conditions thing.
Car in front does a full stop, your are hitting it, that's that.
again when I got caught out in a down poor coming from Germany, was having to do 40 mph to 60 max in the slow line and Lorrys coming past you which cover the car in water so you are blind, no fun in that I can tell you in a low slung car when every 10 miles you loose steering feel for that split second...
people take risks on blind bends driving is a lot about risks %, I hit a car on a hump back bridge at 15 mph, daft t
t stopped on the blind side of it !!!!!! I had 1 second to react, was impossible so I hit it, was raining I was going VERY VERY slow. in the dry I do this bridge at 40+ mph in the dry could have been game over. I creep over this bridge now days.I never do the same bridge fast now, I was lucky that day to be going 15mph as it weather so dire. I see cars doing this at 65mph daily.
IMO you are lucky driving CUPS and avoiding any crash spots for the rest of your life.
I drive for a living so I see a lot of car shunts, puts you off as you get older the risk % in your brain wants 0 % risk 100% time ;-)
bit like drink driving in the early days, I bet every one did it and we all thought it ok. 99.9% time is was ok for every one and we all got home from the pub.
odd 300/500 trip is fine on the risk % and people get home and say, "no issue with cups, I am alive"
:-) I think every one gets it really. I drive my GT3 in 5 to 10 oc though the winter and goto car events. I don't below 5oc ish.
the guide line is 7oc, but from the vid at 2oc and wet you are screwed.
https://youtu.be/bKtnczk8Mxk if you want some real life facts on summer vs winter tyrers. and as I thought in the dry on summer tyres even in winter you are a winner, I ran winter tyres one year, I would never do it again, they did not give me what I expected. and we get mild winter here in the midlands and zero snow. IN Scotland a much bigger case for winters.
drive safe people and lower your risk %
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 20th January 09:05
alfapork said:
No one is going to disagree with that. But scaremongering over Cup2 in winter is going too far.
not imo, and I own 3 cars with Cup2 atm I wont drive any below 5oc. As I said above I will drive in the dry at 5oc to car meets etc, it slippy as fk and you can practice drifts out of bends at nanny speeds, but below 5oc and rain, no thanks, imo it's not safe and the risk % for me is too high. Others will have a different risk % in their head, but for me the cut off point was about 5oc, or storm force rain.It's been -2 here in the midlands, even my PS4S have zero grip if you force the issue for a laugh, I would be scared to have been caught out on cups at -2, knowing how bad they are below 5oc.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r...
Here's what the yanks think about this subject..Interesting perspective as they tend to drive their GT Porsches more than us due to better roads and less congestion..
Here's what the yanks think about this subject..Interesting perspective as they tend to drive their GT Porsches more than us due to better roads and less congestion..
Taffy66 said:
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r...
Here's what the yanks think about this subject..Interesting perspective as they tend to drive their GT Porsches more than us due to better roads and less congestion..
yes they seem more honest about it. over the bull we are reading on here :-)Here's what the yanks think about this subject..Interesting perspective as they tend to drive their GT Porsches more than us due to better roads and less congestion..
dry ok, cold to a point ok, add both cold and rain f
king dangerous :-)"^^^I used to think the same... until I needed to make an emergency stop. It was cold and perfectly dry. I wasn't even driving too fast. The car slid as if I were on ice. Eye opener, indeed. "
"but one day I found myself in light cold rain and the car was ice skating, the rear had zero grip every time I turned (25mph), not fun"
"Dangerous to run those in the winter. At the very least, get your set of Pilot 4S for the cold months."
"there is no way in hell I would take a spirited drive in the cold (or in the rain) on Cup 2s"
feels about right.... but then this IS PH...….
Porsche911R said:
It is and I know the poster well.
But there are guildlines on these tyres even in the manual to take care below 7oc and we all know when temps get to freezing the CUP give up hope. Standing water they are next to useless. They cope with rain ok over my CSL, but add in freezing temps standing water no heat, game over imo. I won't risk it myself. after the drive I did that day to my OPC. (the same day you did in it your 458) all 3 matched up to offer zero grip what so ever.
I just rather be in a car which can stop faster than the car in front.
As I said you can have your wits about you but even a 4 second gap will vanish in this weather on a CUP 2 if the car in front is on winters which have gained more popular these days.
so it's a luck/risk think imo not driving to the conditions thing.
Car in front does a full stop, your are hitting it, that's that.
again when I got caught out in a down poor coming from Germany, was having to do 40 mph to 60 max in the slow line and Lorrys coming past you which cover the car in water so you are blind, no fun in that I can tell you in a low slung car when every 10 miles you loose steering feel for that split second...
people take risks on blind bends driving is a lot about risks %, I hit a car on a hump back bridge at 15 mph, daft tt stopped on the blind side of it !!!!!! I had 1 second to react, was impossible so I hit it, was raining I was going VERY VERY slow. in the dry I do this bridge at 40+ mph in the dry could have been game over. I creep over this bridge now days.
I never do the same bridge fast now, I was lucky that day to be going 15mph as it weather so dire. I see cars doing this at 65mph daily.
IMO you are lucky driving CUPS and avoiding any crash spots for the rest of your life.
I drive for a living so I see a lot of car shunts, puts you off as you get older the risk % in your brain wants 0 % risk 100% time ;-)
bit like drink driving in the early days, I bet every one did it and we all thought it ok. 99.9% time is was ok for every one and we all got home from the pub.
odd 300/500 trip is fine on the risk % and people get home and say, "no issue with cups, I am alive"
:-) I think every one gets it really. I drive my GT3 in 5 to 10 oc though the winter and goto car events. I don't below 5oc ish.
the guide line is 7oc, but from the vid at 2oc and wet you are screwed.
https://youtu.be/bKtnczk8Mxk if you want some real life facts on summer vs winter tyrers. and as I thought in the dry on summer tyres even in winter you are a winner, I ran winter tyres one year, I would never do it again, they did not give me what I expected. and we get mild winter here in the midlands and zero snow. IN Scotland a much bigger case for winters.
drive safe people and lower your risk %
I remember that day well as i drove my 458 165 miles in freezing temps and snow at 6AM..It then changed to unrelenting torrential rain for the final 120 miles..Cheib did his Precision course at SS on the same day in his GT3 on Cups..My 458 was on a fresh set of K1 MP4Ss and was absolutely planted in those conditions even with its hair trigger throttle and hyper steering..If it had been on Michelin Cups i'd have cancelled and stayed at home..But there are guildlines on these tyres even in the manual to take care below 7oc and we all know when temps get to freezing the CUP give up hope. Standing water they are next to useless. They cope with rain ok over my CSL, but add in freezing temps standing water no heat, game over imo. I won't risk it myself. after the drive I did that day to my OPC. (the same day you did in it your 458) all 3 matched up to offer zero grip what so ever.
I just rather be in a car which can stop faster than the car in front.
As I said you can have your wits about you but even a 4 second gap will vanish in this weather on a CUP 2 if the car in front is on winters which have gained more popular these days.
so it's a luck/risk think imo not driving to the conditions thing.
Car in front does a full stop, your are hitting it, that's that.
again when I got caught out in a down poor coming from Germany, was having to do 40 mph to 60 max in the slow line and Lorrys coming past you which cover the car in water so you are blind, no fun in that I can tell you in a low slung car when every 10 miles you loose steering feel for that split second...
people take risks on blind bends driving is a lot about risks %, I hit a car on a hump back bridge at 15 mph, daft t
t stopped on the blind side of it !!!!!! I had 1 second to react, was impossible so I hit it, was raining I was going VERY VERY slow. in the dry I do this bridge at 40+ mph in the dry could have been game over. I creep over this bridge now days.I never do the same bridge fast now, I was lucky that day to be going 15mph as it weather so dire. I see cars doing this at 65mph daily.
IMO you are lucky driving CUPS and avoiding any crash spots for the rest of your life.
I drive for a living so I see a lot of car shunts, puts you off as you get older the risk % in your brain wants 0 % risk 100% time ;-)
bit like drink driving in the early days, I bet every one did it and we all thought it ok. 99.9% time is was ok for every one and we all got home from the pub.
odd 300/500 trip is fine on the risk % and people get home and say, "no issue with cups, I am alive"
:-) I think every one gets it really. I drive my GT3 in 5 to 10 oc though the winter and goto car events. I don't below 5oc ish.
the guide line is 7oc, but from the vid at 2oc and wet you are screwed.
https://youtu.be/bKtnczk8Mxk if you want some real life facts on summer vs winter tyrers. and as I thought in the dry on summer tyres even in winter you are a winner, I ran winter tyres one year, I would never do it again, they did not give me what I expected. and we get mild winter here in the midlands and zero snow. IN Scotland a much bigger case for winters.
drive safe people and lower your risk %
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 20th January 09:05
It was the day that i realised what an amazing car the 458 is and surely will go in history as one of Ferrari's finest creations.
FFS... If you're really into driving your car in winter regularly, set of winter tyres N rated or not will be streets ahead of a PS4S.
You'll be able to drive over sheet ice you can't stand up on and go places 4x4 on summers could not.
And if you cannot find winters, find something else to drive.
You'll be able to drive over sheet ice you can't stand up on and go places 4x4 on summers could not.
And if you cannot find winters, find something else to drive.
Taffy66 said:
I've driven all over it many years ago however mostly in the west..Also driven over large parts of Canada, sometimes in snow and ice..
I am there roughly every couple of months, regularly for the past 7/8 years. Interesting driving roads in for e.g. the Rockies almost always feature extensive gravel sections, and heaven help you if you are trying to get somewhere when the rest of America is awake.Dammit said:
I am there roughly every couple of months, regularly for the past 7/8 years. Interesting driving roads in for e.g. the Rockies almost always feature extensive gravel sections, and heaven help you if you are trying to get somewhere when the rest of America is awake.
To be truthful i'm out of date on driving in America as it was 30 years ago..Lots of conflicting comments on here...…
In an ideal World (we don't live in one sadly) we would all use Cup 2's on our toys as they are superb in the dry and arguably far more capable than they should be even in damp / wet conditions. Michelin have developed a phenomenal tyre in the Cup 2, I drove an M3 CSL many years ago on the original Cup tyres and in the damp (warm summer day) they were frightening - hence the warning sticker on the screen (or was it the sun visor..?) and you would be a brave man to use them in the winter.
The Pilot Sport 4 S are also a great tyre - not the same levels of performance as the Cup 2 during summer months but without doubt a superior tyre in all round all weather conditions. I have them on my M3 and used them in very cold freezing conditions recently and they offer amazing levels of grip and more importantly confidence in the tyre which the Cup 2 couldn't get close to.
Back to that ideal World we would then use a specific Winter tyre during any period of time when temps are below 7 degrees C and I had winters fitted to my BMW 1M and 997 GTS and both were transformed in cold wet conditions.
The Michelin Cross Climate is also a revelation on normal cars (appreciate not Porsche's as you'd want to maximise summer grip levels) and offers the all year capabilities and assurance in colder wet winter months.
But of course you can run Cup 2's all year round, just drive within your own, your cars, the tyres and the roads limits and all will be well but don't think for one second that they will be anywhere near as safe or capable as either a PS4S or dedicated winter tyre during cold wet weather as they simply can't compete. Drive safe and use the best tyres that are available to you.
In an ideal World (we don't live in one sadly) we would all use Cup 2's on our toys as they are superb in the dry and arguably far more capable than they should be even in damp / wet conditions. Michelin have developed a phenomenal tyre in the Cup 2, I drove an M3 CSL many years ago on the original Cup tyres and in the damp (warm summer day) they were frightening - hence the warning sticker on the screen (or was it the sun visor..?) and you would be a brave man to use them in the winter.
The Pilot Sport 4 S are also a great tyre - not the same levels of performance as the Cup 2 during summer months but without doubt a superior tyre in all round all weather conditions. I have them on my M3 and used them in very cold freezing conditions recently and they offer amazing levels of grip and more importantly confidence in the tyre which the Cup 2 couldn't get close to.
Back to that ideal World we would then use a specific Winter tyre during any period of time when temps are below 7 degrees C and I had winters fitted to my BMW 1M and 997 GTS and both were transformed in cold wet conditions.
The Michelin Cross Climate is also a revelation on normal cars (appreciate not Porsche's as you'd want to maximise summer grip levels) and offers the all year capabilities and assurance in colder wet winter months.
But of course you can run Cup 2's all year round, just drive within your own, your cars, the tyres and the roads limits and all will be well but don't think for one second that they will be anywhere near as safe or capable as either a PS4S or dedicated winter tyre during cold wet weather as they simply can't compete. Drive safe and use the best tyres that are available to you.
alfapork said:
FFS... If you're really into driving your car in winter regularly, set of winter tyres N rated or not will be streets ahead of a PS4S.
You'll be able to drive over sheet ice you can't stand up on and go places 4x4 on summers could not.
And if you cannot find winters, find something else to drive.
that's the other end of the spectrum, and yes many people will buy winter tyres over a summer tyres wrongly like you have said yourself, sadly wrong !You'll be able to drive over sheet ice you can't stand up on and go places 4x4 on summers could not.
And if you cannot find winters, find something else to drive.
Due to tyre tech a PS4S stops faster than a winter down to about 2oc and in the midlands we don't get cold weather or snow !
winters have their place , IT'S NOT IN ENGLAND IMO !!!! for the UK they have designed a cross climate tyre if you want to be on the correct tyres.
the other issue with winter tyres is people keep them year on year, but below 4mm tread they are pointless !!!!
As I said there maybe a case for real winter tyres in Scotland and places like Norway :-) but they don't work well I found in England :-(
PS4S work fine for me and if it snows I stay at home anyway.
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 20th January 10:13
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