Discussion
Cheib said:
Don’t know and I know sweet FA about suspension systems but I don’t know how a car through tuning can “sit down” at that speed. It’s a pretty noticeable effect. And let’s face it that spoiler will at some point start producing downforce...it doesn’t just do nothing.
It really is quite something to experience this. I did a half day at millbrook with CAT and this was quite the highlight. The 911 goes through various phases as you increase speed and the aero is just one of them. The instructor Colin could tell you each step and at what speed each was going to happen. Spyder75 said:
Cheib said:
Don’t know and I know sweet FA about suspension systems but I don’t know how a car through tuning can “sit down” at that speed. It’s a pretty noticeable effect. And let’s face it that spoiler will at some point start producing downforce...it doesn’t just do nothing.
It really is quite something to experience this. I did a half day at millbrook with CAT and this was quite the highlight. The 911 goes through various phases as you increase speed and the aero is just one of them. The instructor Colin could tell you each step and at what speed each was going to happen. Porsche911R said:
Desert Dragon said:
You do not get any meaningful lift in a 911 turbo on autobahn at 140mph. Turbo has extra weight right over the front axle and and this keeps them completely planted. If you'd like to meet up I'd be delighted to show you. Like doing 70mph in an ordinary car and its effortless and comfortable as a Lexus so not sure what you're on about with down force. Do you think it helps you on road other than as a styling cue?
nothing to do with 4WD, the turbo has that electronic front air dam which comes into action !Desert Dragon said:
993, 996 and 997 turbo do not have active aero like 991 turbo? They are fine and need none. Spoilers, lw carbon etc all jewellery on road. In fact I prefer my Porsche without spoilers if at all possible like the Touring models. Porsche would hardly offer customers option to take the spoilers off if they did anything material at all. Looks so much cooler too.
while they don't have active aero they have big spoilers ! the advance today is active aero to reduce drag below 75 mph in the 911 turbos case.I love downforce, I am not talking race car whey you feel sucked to the ground, I just hate lift on cars at speed.
So for me spoilers have a place so we have negative lift and a car feels far far better for it, if you cannot feel that then you must be dead or stay below 90 mph.
the issue in the past as I said was drag and that means low mpg and high co2 etc etc.
now a basic GT3 has more downforce than a 997 RS with that massive wing as an example.
my Golf CS has negative lift, it's so so planted at speed.
"Porsche without spoilers if at all possible like the Touring models. Porsche would hardly offer customers option to take the spoilers off if they did "
While the touring produces neg life because it has a diffuser and now a LARGER angle rear pop up wing, it's slower for it as it produced more drag and thus you get lower mpg, lower top speeds and 1/2 the down force.
so that's the choice you make. most people end up being "spoiler w
kers" ie most drive and park with the rear wing up !!! I guess it depends if you think that looks cool or not.My little 964 doesnt have any spoilers. I disconnected the automatic rear spoiler. It was fine at Spa, no problem at all. If you are worried about lift - and you really shouldnt be, a little bit of neg camber will help. You will need a whole chunk of lift to unstick an axle running camber. As I said before, I lost a rear spoiler on a 997 Cup. Didnt lose any time on the lap. Slightly harder on the rears but only an issue after quite a few laps. The spoiler debacle on the Audi TT was laughable.
isaldiri said:
The Cayman R that you go on and on and on about produces lift in both axles. As does the 987 Spyder. Guess they must be st to drive at speed given all your current guff about downforce and you were just talking crap previously......
My spyder does not feel that great at speed (backed up by me backing out the 2 high speed turns at Spa when the instructor is shouting keep your foot pinned !!! he was not feeling what I was though the wheel) but then it's not a fast car so you don't see 120mph ever on the road.t to drive at speed given all your current guff about downforce and you were just talking crap previously...... It's a fast car to 90 mph ish then it really tails off, so you just don't get to see high speeds like modern cars.
I also spun that car in big fashion backwards once at speed on track !!! it just let go with no warning mid bend at speed it span like a **** it was my last lap of the day and I was after a time, but it did not give me much warning.
where as my GT3 you see 150+ very easy.
again my 991 GTS felt s
t, it really did at 120mph + I think the rear had sagged on that car even though it was quite new and low miles but it was not right at speed that car the front was far far too light at speed added in gen one eps which gave no feel and I did not feel good about the whole car, it lasted 2 months ! it even messure higher at the front than the rear. but as you don't have height adjustment, was never going to be an easy fix.Nice try , but a 3 out of 10 for effort ;-).
Steve Rance said:
My little 964 doesnt have any spoilers. I disconnected the automatic rear spoiler. It was fine at Spa, no problem at all. If you are worried about lift - and you really shouldnt be, a little bit of neg camber will help. You will need a whole chunk of lift to unstick an axle running camber. As I said before, I lost a rear spoiler on a 997 Cup. Didnt lose any time on the lap. Slightly harder on the rears but only an issue after quite a few laps. The spoiler debacle on the Audi TT was laughable.
I think my Spyder has too much rear neg camber , I was going to dial it back down a bit.It has got a stiffer rear ARB and the car feels great on the road, but on track on the high speed stuff the rears not great, it's not like you can feel what's going on, you get a s
t load of rear grip then you don't. it needs to be more progressive so you have a chance. I feel like when the cup 2's decide to let go that's that at the rear. but then the Cayman etc don't have multi link to help keep the tyre on the road. not sure of the fix, but I don't track that car any more and I never tracked the R's any way.I have seen unstable GT4's down craner at speed at the rear. So again not sure of the fix there.
my lastest issue in the new GT3 is RWS, it's taking away feel at the rear, I am not gelling with RWS atm learning this car. The back ends moving about under brakes and out of bends in ways which feel odd. Still paying with setup on that though and removing some of the rubber bush's RS style.
But I would rather it was all fixed and hence more honest.
Porsche911R said:
My spyder does not feel that great at speed (backed up by me backing out the 2 high speed turns at Spa when the instructor is shouting keep your foot pinned !!! he was not feeling what I was though the wheel) but then it's not a fast car so you don't see 120mph ever on the road.
It's a fast car to 90 mph ish then it really tails off, so you just don't get to see high speeds like modern cars.
I also spun that car in big fashion backwards once at speed on track !!! it just let go with no warning mid bend at speed it span like a **** it was my last lap of the day and I was after a time, but it did not give me much warning.
You wimped out of a high speed corner then spun a mid engine car on track at speed and your first thought is to blame lack of downforce rather than look at what you're actually doing behind the wheel.....? Right.... It's a fast car to 90 mph ish then it really tails off, so you just don't get to see high speeds like modern cars.
I also spun that car in big fashion backwards once at speed on track !!! it just let go with no warning mid bend at speed it span like a **** it was my last lap of the day and I was after a time, but it did not give me much warning.
isaldiri said:
Porsche911R said:
My spyder does not feel that great at speed (backed up by me backing out the 2 high speed turns at Spa when the instructor is shouting keep your foot pinned !!! he was not feeling what I was though the wheel) but then it's not a fast car so you don't see 120mph ever on the road.
It's a fast car to 90 mph ish then it really tails off, so you just don't get to see high speeds like modern cars.
I also spun that car in big fashion backwards once at speed on track !!! it just let go with no warning mid bend at speed it span like a **** it was my last lap of the day and I was after a time, but it did not give me much warning.
You wimped out of a high speed corner then spun a mid engine car on track at speed and your first thought is to blame lack of downforce rather than look at what you're actually doing behind the wheel.....? Right.... It's a fast car to 90 mph ish then it really tails off, so you just don't get to see high speeds like modern cars.
I also spun that car in big fashion backwards once at speed on track !!! it just let go with no warning mid bend at speed it span like a **** it was my last lap of the day and I was after a time, but it did not give me much warning.
My lift issue are mainly in road cars at the front at speed 120+ they feel light and I like the planted feel you get from neg lift. The R and Spyder don't really go fast enough.
like I have posted many many times to GT3 boys who say you need to be a man to drive GT3's and say GT4 are easy, in my experience Mid engine cars are far far harder to drive at or close to the limit than a GT3 which really do feel progressive and manageable. Where mid engine cars once they go they go, you need to be much faster and really preemt the loss of grip.
Steve Rance said:
Can you explain what you were feeling and where it was happening?
too long ago and I don't track the Spyder now days, it was a mid high speed bend steady throttle and it just let go at the back.did I lift, without thinking when it started to go, cannot now say.
It's not vey playfull my Spyder, it's a bit pointy and with cup2's has a lot of grip and is only 1250kg. it needs a bit of geo work now it's back to a road car really and I might dump the cups for PS4S now it's a road only car. My R on roads tyres you could play in the wet with it on the road, my Spyder does feel a bit grip grip grip, no grip.
Porsche911R said:
isaldiri said:
Porsche911R said:
My spyder does not feel that great at speed (backed up by me backing out the 2 high speed turns at Spa when the instructor is shouting keep your foot pinned !!! he was not feeling what I was though the wheel) but then it's not a fast car so you don't see 120mph ever on the road.
It's a fast car to 90 mph ish then it really tails off, so you just don't get to see high speeds like modern cars.
I also spun that car in big fashion backwards once at speed on track !!! it just let go with no warning mid bend at speed it span like a **** it was my last lap of the day and I was after a time, but it did not give me much warning.
You wimped out of a high speed corner then spun a mid engine car on track at speed and your first thought is to blame lack of downforce rather than look at what you're actually doing behind the wheel.....? Right.... It's a fast car to 90 mph ish then it really tails off, so you just don't get to see high speeds like modern cars.
I also spun that car in big fashion backwards once at speed on track !!! it just let go with no warning mid bend at speed it span like a **** it was my last lap of the day and I was after a time, but it did not give me much warning.
My lift issue are mainly in road cars at the front at speed 120+ they feel light and I like the planted feel you get from neg lift. The R and Spyder don't really go fast enough.
like I have posted many many times to GT3 boys who say you need to be a man to drive GT3's and say GT4 are easy, in my experience Mid engine cars are far far harder to drive at or close to the limit than a GT3 which really do feel progressive and manageable. Where mid engine cars once they go they go, you need to be much faster and really preemt the loss of grip.
Desert Dragon said:
I have to say that's quite odd vehicle dynamics you're describing. It sounds like your Cup 2 had no heat in them whatsoever but still the PSM should catch you? The lift you're describing in Golf GTI, Cayman R if set up correctly simply not an issue. The latest Golf GTI CS being first to have no lift ad nauseam is just marketing hype R. Means very little. Until you get to single seaters etc and lw promise the aero not so important. Look at Steve in GT3 with lap times hardly any different after losing rear spoiler and thats in race conditions. My 997 turbo probably has lift at 180 mph. Yes the front end lighter but the car is planted and I trust it 100 percent even in the wet
PSM in 987 don't work on track sadly, it's utter garbage and will make you spin, I only drive on track in my cars with every thing in OFF mode but in the 987 it can come back on on it's own and cause you to spin !!! this was not the issue on this bend mind you. it was prob driver error but I have only spun this car once and it caught me out. PSM comes back on with tighter bends and too much lock and then it's not funny when it tried to brake a rear wheel !!!In the wet in the Spyder it's max 60 mph on a motoway :-)
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 3rd February 11:02
Porsche911R said:
no this is another issue with my Spyder, I am not blaiming lack of down force for the spin, I am saying on the Spyder it does not give you much warning at the rear once the cup 2 let go mid bend at high speed. it's a bit all or nothing.
My lift issue are mainly in road cars at the front at speed 120+ they feel light and I like the planted feel you get from neg lift. The R and Spyder don't really go fast enough.
like I have posted many many times to GT3 boys who say you need to be a man to drive GT3's and say GT4 are easy, in my experience Mid engine cars are far far harder to drive at or close to the limit than a GT3 which really do feel progressive and manageable. Where mid engine cars once they go they go, you need to be much faster and really preemt the loss of grip.
You are conflating aero balance with absolute amounts of downforce. Given the amounts of downforce/lift involved in most road cars at 100mph, they simply are not as significant as you can making out. And in any case that extra grip downforce provides only becomes a factor when you are near to exceeding the 'normal' limit of tyre grip which on the road especially at high speeds you're never going to be anywhere even close to.My lift issue are mainly in road cars at the front at speed 120+ they feel light and I like the planted feel you get from neg lift. The R and Spyder don't really go fast enough.
like I have posted many many times to GT3 boys who say you need to be a man to drive GT3's and say GT4 are easy, in my experience Mid engine cars are far far harder to drive at or close to the limit than a GT3 which really do feel progressive and manageable. Where mid engine cars once they go they go, you need to be much faster and really preemt the loss of grip.
Enough people who I absolutely trust do know how to drive have said the gt4 is an easier car to drive quickly than a 996/997 gt3. I am perfectly happy to take their word over yours tbh....
R this was my car at 158mph.no spoilers,just a small splitter,look at the back window and front arches over the wheels,the steering would go light but it was fine.You can learn a lot from photos and film on what your car is really doing,intially it felt like the car had lifted at the front by 300mm!
Most modern cars now have very poor feedback/feel,may be you just need to grow a pair and keep it nailed and or get a good set up/tyres.
Agree on rear wheel steer,feels like you have a squidgy/low pressure rear tyre,wonder what motorsport engineer came up with it,its fine as a road car though.
Porsche911R said:
too long ago and I don't track the Spyder now days, it was a mid high speed bend steady throttle and it just let go at the back.
did I lift, without thinking when it started to go, cannot now say.
It's not vey playfull my Spyder, it's a bit pointy and with cup2's has a lot of grip and is only 1250kg. it needs a bit of geo work now it's back to a road car really and I might dump the cups for PS4S now it's a road only car. My R on roads tyres you could play in the wet with it on the road, my Spyder does feel a bit grip grip grip, no grip.
Ok. Understood. If the car turned in well then you are probably not looking at an aero issue and once its in, the loaded wheels are taking huge loads and the vertical loads needed to unstick them are unlikely to be generated by the aero characterisitcs of the chassis. Its more likely a genreral set up trait. My thoughts go to the dreaded PASM as it will respond to the cornering loads with a nice dose of rebound pressure. My experience of PASM in high speed corners has always been a vaigue and disconnected feel. did I lift, without thinking when it started to go, cannot now say.
It's not vey playfull my Spyder, it's a bit pointy and with cup2's has a lot of grip and is only 1250kg. it needs a bit of geo work now it's back to a road car really and I might dump the cups for PS4S now it's a road only car. My R on roads tyres you could play in the wet with it on the road, my Spyder does feel a bit grip grip grip, no grip.
its easy to understand why you felt the problem was aero related but i suspect that the culprit was more chassis. The Elise S1 was classic for leading the driver to assume that it needed more aero because of it's tendancy to snap into oversteer between apex and exit preceeded by a horrible vaigue feeling. The truith was that it just needed some rear roll control.
From reading your posts on this issue, i can fully understand how you've drawn an areo related conclusion. There are logical and well reasoned, but i think that its a mechanical rather than Areo. Generally a car lacking in aero will understeer into a fast corner and if you managed to eventually coax it in ,it will snap into oversteer - often before the apex.
Yellow491 said:
R this was my car at 158mph.no spoilers,just a small splitter,look at the back window and front arches over the wheels,the steering would go light but it was fine.You can learn a lot from photos and film on what your car is really doing,intially it felt like the car had lifted at the front by 300mm!
Most modern cars now have very poor feedback/feel,may be you just need to grow a pair and keep it nailed and or get a good set up/tyres.
Agree on rear wheel steer,feels like you have a squidgy/low pressure rear tyre,wonder what motorsport engineer came up with it,its fine as a road car though.
the older cars you can drive on a loose style though and you know 100% what each end is doing on skinny tyres.Most modern cars now have very poor feedback/feel,may be you just need to grow a pair and keep it nailed and or get a good set up/tyres.
Agree on rear wheel steer,feels like you have a squidgy/low pressure rear tyre,wonder what motorsport engineer came up with it,its fine as a road car though.
modern cars just don't tell you what's going on to that level and have MASSIVE 325 section CUP tyres so when they let go it's in a big way and in a mid engine car it's a bigger way.
one can drive a very basic £10k e30 318 IS as an example and drift like a king, skinny tyres, no grip, full feel etc. A modern car don't work or drive like that.
hence people say buy an MX5 for £6k you will have more fun !
all I notice is new cars are VERY fast and as people have said you notice the GT3 neg lift makes the car very stable.
it's fun watching classic racing as every single car is on OPP lock every bend … modern cars just don't drive like that.
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