Discussion
Steve Rance said:
Porsche911R said:
they just keep adding front track and bringing the engine forward :-) it's more mid engine than a 458 these days :-)
makes you wonder how they got it so wrong in the 996 and 997 lol even though Harris says less under steer every model....
Or you could just learn to drive a 911 properly instead? Clearly Porsche thought that it would be better to dumb down each itteration. Better for sales I suppose. Pity..makes you wonder how they got it so wrong in the 996 and 997 lol even though Harris says less under steer every model....
they are NOT hard to drive, in fact the reverse, due to how they talk to you, My 996 was easy to pilot.
even my little spyder gets into abend faster than a 997 gt3, that's just the layout of the car.
why people think trail braking is the B and end all I find odd, you have to do it in every car these days to be fast, but more so in 996 and 997 , and when you are on the brakes you are slowing down, that's never good for lap times.
I own all layouts of cars, they all have to be driven different, none is really harder than the other.
the 996 "driven properly" is forum heresy bulls
t from 15 years ago it's just different.Porsche911R said:
but it's slower !! Apex speeds in the older GT3 are slower what can I say.
they are NOT hard to drive, in fact the reverse, due to how they talk to you, My 996 was easy to pilot.
even my little spyder gets into abend faster than a 997 gt3, that's just the layout of the car.
why people think trail braking is the B and end all I find odd, you have to do it in every car these days to be fast, but more so in 996 and 997 , and when you are on the brakes you are slowing down, that's never good for lap times.
I own all layouts of cars, they all have to be driven different, none is really harder than the other.
the 996 "driven properly" is forum heresy bullst from 15 years ago it's just different.
Yep it's different because the 991 turns itself in for you. It has something callled rear wheel steer - which of course, only a real driver can master. they are NOT hard to drive, in fact the reverse, due to how they talk to you, My 996 was easy to pilot.
even my little spyder gets into abend faster than a 997 gt3, that's just the layout of the car.
why people think trail braking is the B and end all I find odd, you have to do it in every car these days to be fast, but more so in 996 and 997 , and when you are on the brakes you are slowing down, that's never good for lap times.
I own all layouts of cars, they all have to be driven different, none is really harder than the other.
the 996 "driven properly" is forum heresy bulls
t from 15 years ago it's just different.Never the less I am grateful for your wise words of correction and can only reflect on what might have been if I had been blessed with your driving ability. As it is, i'll try to consoul myself with the memory of a mere 58 race podiums 34 race wins and 9 lap records in Porsche 911's.
Honestly, you really do come out with a lot of twaddle sometimes.
Steve Rance said:
Yep it's different because the 991 turns itself in for you. It has something callled rear wheel steer - which of course, only a real driver can master.
Never the less I am grateful for your wise words of correction and can only reflect on what might have been if I had been blessed with your driving ability. As it is, i'll try to consoul myself with the memory of a mere 58 race podiums 34 race wins and 9 lap records in Porsche 911's.
Honestly, you really do come out with a lot of twaddle sometimes.
you love the 996 we know that, I respect all your posts, I don't agree with the "need to be a man to drive a 996" comments its daft.Never the less I am grateful for your wise words of correction and can only reflect on what might have been if I had been blessed with your driving ability. As it is, i'll try to consoul myself with the memory of a mere 58 race podiums 34 race wins and 9 lap records in Porsche 911's.
Honestly, you really do come out with a lot of twaddle sometimes.
you have to trail in a 991.2 GT3 quite a lot, hence the geo's are adding rake to add a bit more weight over the front, braking is slower than not braking. ;-)
RWS is s
t imo, rather my car did not have it, it's not that predicable and feels very odd out of slower bends I don't know any instructor who even likes it.None of what I type has anything to do with mine or your driving ability !! why even bring up how s
t I am now how great you are , I find it odd.Car dymanics are car dymanics I don't care if I am the slowest person on track.
Porsche911R said:
Car dynamics are something I really don't get.
Edited for you (with correct spelling 
)Even if you actually said it yourself earlier
Porsche911R said:
why people think trail braking is the B and end all I find odd, you have to do it in every car these days to be fast
Apex speed which you are hung up about isn't everything but rather how quickly one gets through the corner. in a modern fairly high powered road car (or even GT racing car these days I think), the way to be quick is generally to get the car turned asap and back on the power. Trailbraking allows one to get on the brakes later and power earlier so even giving up a bit of mid corner speed the overall impact is positive time wise.
Macca993 said:
There seems to be alot of negative sentiment toward the 992 GT3 on this board but I cannot understand why.
I think the answer to that is quite simple....people do not like the look of the 992 That would seem to be quite a widely held view given sales and dealers discounting pre-registered models to shift them within a year of launch. Porsche911R said:
I don't agree with the "need to be a man to drive a 996" comments its daft.
.
Actually ive never said that. My point is traditionally a 911's character is defined by its unique layout which requires understanding. As a result it is uniquely rewarding. As for trail braking. If you can trail brake to threashold all the way to the apex and find it easy, you are doing it wrong. At 10/10ths Its probably the most difficult thing that any driver can do. Dont be blinded by apex speeds. I was before I drove 911's. If you drive a 911 to maximise your apex speeds you wont be quick. When I started racing 911's we overlaid my data with Richard Westbrook at Snetterton. I was quicker on every apex but on the lap he was a second quicker than me in the same car. .
Steve Rance said:
Actually ive never said that. My point is traditionally a 911's character is defined by its unique layout which requires understanding. As a result it is uniquely rewarding. As for trail braking. If you can trail brake to threashold all the way to the apex and find it easy, you are doing it wrong. At 10/10ths Its probably the most difficult thing that any driver can do. Dont be blinded by apex speeds. I was before I drove 911's. If you drive a 911 to maximise your apex speeds you wont be quick. When I started racing 911's we overlaid my data with Richard Westbrook at Snetterton. I was quicker on every apex but on the lap he was a second quicker than me in the same car.
Hi Steve,Not getting involved in difference of opinions but I am a keen track day guy and currently own a lovely manual GT3. From what you learned from above data, how would you, in simple terms, advise best approach for 911 re entry, apex and to exit? I trail brake in most car layouts but always find the transition (both where and smoothness) from brake to throttle the most demanding. I try to get to a part /balanced throttle just prior to apex to get the diff's working but its a very finite process which I generally fu*k up on most occasions but that keeps me going back and all part of the fun
SagMan said:
Hi Steve,
Not getting involved in difference of opinions but I am a keen track day guy and currently own a lovely manual GT3. From what you learned from above data, how would you, in simple terms, advise best approach for 911 re entry, apex and to exit? I trail brake in most car layouts but always find the transition (both where and smoothness) from brake to throttle the most demanding. I try to get to a part /balanced throttle just prior to apex to get the diff's working but its a very finite process which I generally fu*k up on most occasions but that keeps me going back and all part of the fun
Hi SagManNot getting involved in difference of opinions but I am a keen track day guy and currently own a lovely manual GT3. From what you learned from above data, how would you, in simple terms, advise best approach for 911 re entry, apex and to exit? I trail brake in most car layouts but always find the transition (both where and smoothness) from brake to throttle the most demanding. I try to get to a part /balanced throttle just prior to apex to get the diff's working but its a very finite process which I generally fu*k up on most occasions but that keeps me going back and all part of the fun
It depends on the type of corner but generally you need to maximise your entry speed but be able to have the car settled to enable getting on the throttle at the apex and the car must be rotated. Transition should be easy and you can be almost digital on the throttle. You don’t want to be on an open throttle if you need the diff to settle the car which typically will be in slower corners. The diff closes when you are either braking or accelerating. It’s open on a balanced throttle and won’t help you. If you try to maximise your apex speed you will be too late on the throttle on the exit because you will need to wait for the car to settle. It’s threading the eye of a needle and a balancing act but once you get it right a well set up car will really reward you. I over rotate the car all the way into the apex and use the diff to settle the rear end at the same time. You will be balancing rotational and lateral loads as well as managing extreme weight transfer. In a 911 the pivot point of the chassis is towards the front end of the car at the opposite point of the engine and gearbox. This is unlike all other chassis layouts and creates a unique challenge. If you watch a well driven 911 on entry in slow motion you will see it over rotating all the way in so that it is straight on the apex. You can pick up full throttle pretty much straight away. If my tyres are shot, I will use the throttle to rotate the car. Just enough to rotate without the need for steering correction. If you need too much of that you will lose time. Any more than tiny amounts of steering correction means that you are carrying too much speed and you will be scrubbing off time.
Basically, if you can pick up full throttle before the apex you are in too slow at apex and if you have to wait until exit you are too quick. Either way, you need the diff to settle the car all the way to apex so keep that in Mind.
Steve Rance said:
SagMan said:
Hi Steve,
Not getting involved in difference of opinions but I am a keen track day guy and currently own a lovely manual GT3. From what you learned from above data, how would you, in simple terms, advise best approach for 911 re entry, apex and to exit? I trail brake in most car layouts but always find the transition (both where and smoothness) from brake to throttle the most demanding. I try to get to a part /balanced throttle just prior to apex to get the diff's working but its a very finite process which I generally fu*k up on most occasions but that keeps me going back and all part of the fun
Hi SagManNot getting involved in difference of opinions but I am a keen track day guy and currently own a lovely manual GT3. From what you learned from above data, how would you, in simple terms, advise best approach for 911 re entry, apex and to exit? I trail brake in most car layouts but always find the transition (both where and smoothness) from brake to throttle the most demanding. I try to get to a part /balanced throttle just prior to apex to get the diff's working but its a very finite process which I generally fu*k up on most occasions but that keeps me going back and all part of the fun
It depends on the type of corner but generally you need to maximise your entry speed but be able to have the car settled to enable getting on the throttle at the apex and the car must be rotated. Transition should be easy and you can be almost digital on the throttle. You don’t want to be on an open throttle if you need the diff to settle the car which typically will be in slower corners. The diff closes when you are either braking or accelerating. It’s open on a balanced throttle and won’t help you. If you try to maximise your apex speed you will be too late on the throttle on the exit because you will need to wait for the car to settle. It’s threading the eye of a needle and a balancing act but once you get it right a well set up car will really reward you. I over rotate the car all the way into the apex and use the diff to settle the rear end at the same time. You will be balancing rotational and lateral loads as well as managing extreme weight transfer. In a 911 the pivot point of the chassis is towards the front end of the car at the opposite point of the engine and gearbox. This is unlike all other chassis layouts and creates a unique challenge. If you watch a well driven 911 on entry in slow motion you will see it over rotating all the way in so that it is straight on the apex. You can pick up full throttle pretty much straight away. If my tyres are shot, I will use the throttle to rotate the car. Just enough to rotate without the need for steering correction. If you need too much of that you will lose time. Any more than tiny amounts of steering correction means that you are carrying too much speed and you will be scrubbing off time.
Basically, if you can pick up full throttle before the apex you are in too slow at apex and if you have to wait until exit you are too quick. Either way, you need the diff to settle the car all the way to apex so keep that in Mind.
CarHabit said:
Will the touring have four seats??
With the 991.2 it was too expensive because a GT3 is engineered for two passengers so would have meant full type approval which would have been way too expensive for a limited run of cars. My guess is it wont have....because of cost. They’ll sell them all anyway.
Plenty of discussion about retro fitting rear seats on GT3s over the years, from 996s to 991s. Can be done and a few have. But fiddly and expensive with all Porsche parts.
As I understand, it was nothing to do with type approval, surely that's not GT3 specific, perhaps homologation, but primarily Porsche's decision.
As I understand, it was nothing to do with type approval, surely that's not GT3 specific, perhaps homologation, but primarily Porsche's decision.
rbh said:
Steve was thanks useful, to the ignorant (me) by rotation do you mean oversteer?
Basically the car is slightly over steering but ideally not enough to require correction. Generally I start that process as I near the apex. Once the car is almost fully rotated it will take full throttle. Generally I try to pick up full throttle straight away. If you get it right you should be pretty much flat at the apexSteve Rance said:
Basically the car is slightly over steering but ideally not enough to require correction. Generally I start that process as I near the apex. Once the car is almost fully rotated it will take full throttle. Generally I try to pick up full throttle straight away. If you get it right you should be pretty much flat at the apex
Can you point me in the direction of any good videos / images that show what you’re describing ? I realise when driving this will not help as this will be something you “feel” , but it still may help a little - thanks RSVP911 said:
Can you point me in the direction of any good videos / images that show what you’re describing ? I realise when driving this will not help as this will be something you “feel” , but it still may help a little - thanks
That’s great advice Steve, thanks for the Walk through . I see why early rotation of the car is crucial Steve Rance said:
Basically the car is slightly over steering but ideally not enough to require correction. Generally I start that process as I near the apex. Once the car is almost fully rotated it will take full throttle. Generally I try to pick up full throttle straight away. If you get it right you should be pretty much flat at the apex
Thanks for that Steve, very helpful. I’m new to the GT3 and that may have just saved me many laps/months of trying to figure it out. Much appreciated. Steve Rance said:
Hi SagMan
It depends on the type of corner but generally you need to maximise your entry speed but be able to have the car settled to enable getting on the throttle at the apex and the car must be rotated. Transition should be easy and you can be almost digital on the throttle. You don’t want to be on an open throttle if you need the diff to settle the car which typically will be in slower corners. The diff closes when you are either braking or accelerating. It’s open on a balanced throttle and won’t help you. If you try to maximise your apex speed you will be too late on the throttle on the exit because you will need to wait for the car to settle. It’s threading the eye of a needle and a balancing act but once you get it right a well set up car will really reward you. I over rotate the car all the way into the apex and use the diff to settle the rear end at the same time. You will be balancing rotational and lateral loads as well as managing extreme weight transfer. In a 911 the pivot point of the chassis is towards the front end of the car at the opposite point of the engine and gearbox. This is unlike all other chassis layouts and creates a unique challenge. If you watch a well driven 911 on entry in slow motion you will see it over rotating all the way in so that it is straight on the apex. You can pick up full throttle pretty much straight away. If my tyres are shot, I will use the throttle to rotate the car. Just enough to rotate without the need for steering correction. If you need too much of that you will lose time. Any more than tiny amounts of steering correction means that you are carrying too much speed and you will be scrubbing off time.
Basically, if you can pick up full throttle before the apex you are in too slow at apex and if you have to wait until exit you are too quick. Either way, you need the diff to settle the car all the way to apex so keep that in Mind.
great post ;-) that's why I love your posts.It depends on the type of corner but generally you need to maximise your entry speed but be able to have the car settled to enable getting on the throttle at the apex and the car must be rotated. Transition should be easy and you can be almost digital on the throttle. You don’t want to be on an open throttle if you need the diff to settle the car which typically will be in slower corners. The diff closes when you are either braking or accelerating. It’s open on a balanced throttle and won’t help you. If you try to maximise your apex speed you will be too late on the throttle on the exit because you will need to wait for the car to settle. It’s threading the eye of a needle and a balancing act but once you get it right a well set up car will really reward you. I over rotate the car all the way into the apex and use the diff to settle the rear end at the same time. You will be balancing rotational and lateral loads as well as managing extreme weight transfer. In a 911 the pivot point of the chassis is towards the front end of the car at the opposite point of the engine and gearbox. This is unlike all other chassis layouts and creates a unique challenge. If you watch a well driven 911 on entry in slow motion you will see it over rotating all the way in so that it is straight on the apex. You can pick up full throttle pretty much straight away. If my tyres are shot, I will use the throttle to rotate the car. Just enough to rotate without the need for steering correction. If you need too much of that you will lose time. Any more than tiny amounts of steering correction means that you are carrying too much speed and you will be scrubbing off time.
Basically, if you can pick up full throttle before the apex you are in too slow at apex and if you have to wait until exit you are too quick. Either way, you need the diff to settle the car all the way to apex so keep that in Mind.
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