Discussion
So if I understand correctly and apply this to somewhere like the second corner at Anglesey, you would brake late and deep into the corner almost to the apex. Your steering inputs are larger as you near the apex. You are trying to keep as much weight over the front to maximise the effect of your steering inputs and rotate the car. A less experienced driver could keep too much over the front and lose the rear, or too little and lose some time. A more experienced driver will know the balance point and activly flirt with danger to help the rear rotate. Once pointing in the right direction full throttle ASAP.
Out of interest what line would you take into that corner?
Also, would you mind sharing your thoughts on the next corner Church?
Thanks
This is a brilliant vid, showing off the throttle in corners and mixtures of the trail and hard braking depending on what degree the corner is and speed.
https://youtu.be/f4gghnwAMvw
https://youtu.be/f4gghnwAMvw
Melvynr said:
This is a brilliant vid, showing off the throttle in corners and mixtures of the trail and hard braking depending on what degree the corner is and speed.
https://youtu.be/f4gghnwAMvw
Kevin really is a bit of a master with 911's. I now fully understand the technique Steve kindly outlined. What surprises me with Kevin's video is the the degree of hard throttle when transitioning off the trail brake. He seems to initially put a large throttle input to further assist the rotation to just prior or at apex ,then slight reduced throttle to settle and ensure can get the apex and then back on full throttle. Almost like how drifter maintain the drift angle. Not on every corner but certainly some.https://youtu.be/f4gghnwAMvw
Amazing driver.
Melvynr said:
This is a brilliant vid, showing off the throttle in corners and mixtures of the trail and hard braking depending on what degree the corner is and speed.
https://youtu.be/f4gghnwAMvw
One of the all time best Ring videos IMO..I'd sell my teeth to be able to drive like Kevin Estre.https://youtu.be/f4gghnwAMvw
Porsche911R said:
Atm I own all engine layouts and drives.
Have owned 76 cars.
They are all different to drive fast and you play to the strengths of the car, I like mid engine the best.
Nice Have owned 76 cars.
They are all different to drive fast and you play to the strengths of the car, I like mid engine the best.
How do you find the RS against the GT3 991.2 on the road, was very tempted with the RS but went GT3 as it will be only used on the road and not track. Was told by someone who owns an RS and GT3 that they would knock the teeth out of my head, I find the GT3 excellent on suspension and am doubting now why I never went RS.
Melvynr said:
Nice
How do you find the RS against the GT3 991.2 on the road, was very tempted with the RS but went GT3 as it will be only used on the road and not track. Was told by someone who owns an RS and GT3 that they would knock the teeth out of my head, I find the GT3 excellent on suspension and am doubting now why I never went RS.
991.1 RS would have been very easy as a daily How do you find the RS against the GT3 991.2 on the road, was very tempted with the RS but went GT3 as it will be only used on the road and not track. Was told by someone who owns an RS and GT3 that they would knock the teeth out of my head, I find the GT3 excellent on suspension and am doubting now why I never went RS.
Melvynr said:
Damn it
Had an inkling it would be after driving this one, wouldn't be used as an all-out daily either, just used to blow the cobwebs away when not working.Cheers.
My current 991.2GT3 RS WP superseded a 991.2GT3 and i find the ride equally comfy and just as easy to drive on rough roads..Maybe the Weissach pack's lower unsprung weight due to having Carbon fiber suspension,PCCBs and Mag wheels makes up for the very high spring rates on the gen 2 RS..OTOH perhaps not as Hunter's 991.2GT3 RS has neither PCCBs or WP so perhaps i'm just feeling the placebo effect..Had an inkling it would be after driving this one, wouldn't be used as an all-out daily either, just used to blow the cobwebs away when not working.Cheers.
It makes more sense its just me trying to justify the huge extra money the WP and PCCBs cost to make me feel better.
The RS's rear wing doesn't interfere with rear vision as much as the GT3 did and that's definitely not placebo.!
Taffy66 said:
My current 991.2GT3 RS WP superseded a 991.2GT3 and i find the ride equally comfy and just as easy to drive on rough roads..Maybe the Weissach pack's lower unsprung weight due to having Carbon fiber suspension,PCCBs and Mag wheels makes up for the very high spring rates on the gen 2 RS..OTOH perhaps not as Hunter's 991.2GT3 RS has neither PCCBs or WP so perhaps i'm just feeling the placebo effect..
It makes more sense its just me trying to justify the huge extra money the WP and PCCBs cost to make me feel better.
The RS's rear wing doesn't interfere with rear vision as much as the GT3 did and that's definitely not placebo.!
Certainly, the GT3 wing is taking some getting used to with the rear vision, but getting used to it now. Was in detailers when a brand new RS WP had just arrived in for a full PPF, was smitten when I went around it and sat in it{dont tell anyone], just awsum. Sounds like you use it, such a sin to see them sat in garages unused.Bought this one at 2.6k miles with 4 owners on it, up to 4.7k now from December, cannot keep out of it. Cheers.It makes more sense its just me trying to justify the huge extra money the WP and PCCBs cost to make me feel better.
The RS's rear wing doesn't interfere with rear vision as much as the GT3 did and that's definitely not placebo.!
Melvynr said:
Nice
How do you find the RS against the GT3 991.2 on the road, was very tempted with the RS but went GT3 as it will be only used on the road and not track. Was told by someone who owns an RS and GT3 that they would knock the teeth out of my head, I find the GT3 excellent on suspension and am doubting now why I never went RS.
I don’t own a RS, but my GT3 is pretty good on the road as you have found out. Would love to drive one back to back on normal wheels to see the difference as the RS spring rates are more.How do you find the RS against the GT3 991.2 on the road, was very tempted with the RS but went GT3 as it will be only used on the road and not track. Was told by someone who owns an RS and GT3 that they would knock the teeth out of my head, I find the GT3 excellent on suspension and am doubting now why I never went RS.
So is the difference all to do with unsparing mass.
Porsche911R said:
great post ;-) that's why I love your posts.
Thanks R. Appreciated.I'm not sure that this techinque will work fully with the RWS cars. I think that you may want to apply a slightly revised version to optimise it. I'd start with aiming inside of the apex with your steering in the last phase of entry to coax the RWS to over rotate the car just before the apex. It will straighten quicker and you will be earlier on the throttle.
As an aside - and to qualify why I prefer the analogue/mechanical GT cars over the 997 and later cars. I remeber driving a 997 RS gen1 at Silverstone on the Club layout. We'd just been there with Carrera cup and I was driving a 996RS on the day. In the Cup I took maggots flat. You had to be very careful on the brakes because the Right hand side of the car will still loaded as the exit maggots was at the braking point for Beckets which made things very tricky but it gained a huge chunk of time during the race and i was interested to see if it was still on in the 996. I was surprised that it was but being heavier, the car was quite difficult under initial braking, twitching on the edge over oversteer (on the loaded side) but you could feel everything that was going on and if you were very careful on the brakes taking maggots flat was on. I knew that the 997RS had the same chassis as the 996 RS (the 997 GT3 adopted the same pick pick up points that the 996RS had and was party homologated for) and the car that I was driving had a similar set up as the 996 that I was there with. On the exit of maggots I carefully picked up the brakes then the car went vaigue and snapped into oversteer with no warning at all. What had happened is that the electronic element of diff had become invloved and was trying to stabilise the rear of the car by applying the rear brakes. As the car was already on the limit of grip, the system effectively launched the car into oversteer by applying a control variable which I had no knowledge of or controll over. A reasonably big moment but thankfully I managed to stop it in a straight line without hitting anything.
A similar situation with a good friend and gifted driver at Brands hatch resulted in a 997RS being written off. Piecing back the accident, we worked out that the same thing had happened to him. Whenever an active system is fitted to a car which is designed to be tracked as part of it's normal usage there will a bigger possibility of these type of events happening. The last thing a driver wants as he enters the 10/10ths window is active involvement of any kind. That is why I much prefer driving analogue chassis over digital. When you get near to 10/10ths things can become vaigue and potentially dangerous.
nw942 said:
So if I understand correctly and apply this to somewhere like the second corner at Anglesey, you would brake late and deep into the corner almost to the apex. Your steering inputs are larger as you near the apex. You are trying to keep as much weight over the front to maximise the effect of your steering inputs and rotate the car. A less experienced driver could keep too much over the front and lose the rear, or too little and lose some time. A more experienced driver will know the balance point and activly flirt with danger to help the rear rotate. Once pointing in the right direction full throttle ASAP.
Out of interest what line would you take into that corner?
Also, would you mind sharing your thoughts on the next corner Church?
Thanks
Almost but you dont want any steering imputs. The car should naturally be over rotating without the need to correct because its being settled by the diff. Over the final entry phase of a corner a car can over rotate a few feet without needing correcting. Its enough to get on the throttle quite a bit earlier. You do need a reasonable skill set as a driver to use the technique. You definately need to be able to drive to threashold pretty much subconsiously to be able to do it without an off. Out of interest what line would you take into that corner?
Also, would you mind sharing your thoughts on the next corner Church?
Thanks
To get it right you are on the edge of an accident all the way in to the apex and working in a very narrow window. A very good 911 driver (front runnning Carrera cup say) is always in that window. A world class 911 driver works in a incredibly small window. Sean Edwards was amazing in this respect. Richard Westbrook also. Watching these guys at work in qualifying mode is just incredible.
Sorry, dont know Anglesy so I cant commment on the lines there.
Steve Rance said:
Whenever an active system is fitted to a car which is designed to be tracked as part of it's normal usage there will a bigger possibility of these type of events happening. The last thing a driver wants as he enters the 10/10ths window is active involvement of any kind. That is why I much prefer driving analogue chassis over digital. When you get near to 10/10ths things can become vaigue and potentially dangerous.
This is an interesting point and the one thing that give me cause of concern me about having DSC fitted to my car vs a more passive setup like OEM PASM or better still KW Clubsport.Maybe only way to find out, is to go have a play in the safe environment or on a safe corner - try to provoke it and see what you get - lol life on the edge.
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