911 Carrera S (992) availability

[RevHappy]

It crazy time when you can run a car for say a couple of years and exchange it for a fresh one for pretty much what you paid for it.

[findtomdotcom]

I'm not sure that's going to continue much longer...

[Cheib]

Pivo said:

esotericar said:

Odd then that you said you hadn't seen any. The numbers are from the SMMT website.

Another good indicator of reality as opposed to claims is used availability. On Pistonheads, there are currently 136 used 992 Carrera for sale and 178 991 Carrera. That's obviously both 991.1 and 991.2 combined - the whole 991 cycle. The 992.1 cycle hasn't even finished yet, and then there will be the 992.2. And 992 are supposed to be in very short supply? All the hard evidence says otherwise. Only anecdotal stuff is claiming the short supply.

Your stats might be correct, however it doesn’t change the fact that my OPC has not received new C2S in over six months and I am 3rd out of 8 orders with deposits. I have no reason not to believe my SE, as he sold me two other Porsches and always been truthful with me. For me, anything else is hearsay.

It is not unusual for Porsche to severally reduce allocations//build slots of specific models during the models life cycle. Obviously when 992 was first launched all we had were Carrera, S and Turbo S….so the entire annual production was concentrated on those models. We now have the relatively recently launched GTS and GT3 so production is now skewed to those cars. During the 991.2 model’s life I remember my dealer telling me he had a customer who wanted a C2S…they only had visibility on one allocated build slot for the next year. At the same time could buy a GTS or a T very easily….dealers had loads of cars coming through.

I suspect they do it as it helps creat demand/support used prices as well as making demand for the 911 relatively constant throughout each model generation….we currently have circa 50 Turbo S’s on the used marked and 600 plus sold in the UK…which is a lot of £200k cars. But because they’ve directed production to GT3/GTS t is now a very long wait to get a Turbo S (two years) so used prices stay firm.

I don’t dispute what your SE is telling you but I am not surprised that C2S’s are in relatively short supply. Based on what happened during the 991.2 life cycle they would be anyway.

[esotericar]

Cheib said:

Stuff about specific model allocations.

Makes a lot of sense. Porsche really is right on top of this stuff, isn't it? Very clever way of, at the same time, keeping production numbers up (currently record levels for 911s) while, as you say, protecting residuals and maintaining that air of slight exclusivity and limited access.

That said, I do think the huge supply of GT cars in the last decade will eventually be an issue for residuals.

[RevHappy]

findtomdotcom said:

I'm not sure that's going to continue much longer...

where there's a lack of supply the demand will be there, especially in the lux sector.

[Pivo]

Cheib said:

Pivo said:

esotericar said:

Odd then that you said you hadn't seen any. The numbers are from the SMMT website.

Another good indicator of reality as opposed to claims is used availability. On Pistonheads, there are currently 136 used 992 Carrera for sale and 178 991 Carrera. That's obviously both 991.1 and 991.2 combined - the whole 991 cycle. The 992.1 cycle hasn't even finished yet, and then there will be the 992.2. And 992 are supposed to be in very short supply? All the hard evidence says otherwise. Only anecdotal stuff is claiming the short supply.

Your stats might be correct, however it doesn’t change the fact that my OPC has not received new C2S in over six months and I am 3rd out of 8 orders with deposits. I have no reason not to believe my SE, as he sold me two other Porsches and always been truthful with me. For me, anything else is hearsay.

It is not unusual for Porsche to severally reduce allocations//build slots of specific models during the models life cycle. Obviously when 992 was first launched all we had were Carrera, S and Turbo S….so the entire annual production was concentrated on those models. We now have the relatively recently launched GTS and GT3 so production is now skewed to those cars. During the 991.2 model’s life I remember my dealer telling me he had a customer who wanted a C2S…they only had visibility on one allocated build slot for the next year. At the same time could buy a GTS or a T very easily….dealers had loads of cars coming through.

I suspect they do it as it helps creat demand/support used prices as well as making demand for the 911 relatively constant throughout each model generation….we currently have circa 50 Turbo S’s on the used marked and 600 plus sold in the UK…which is a lot of £200k cars. But because they’ve directed production to GT3/GTS t is now a very long wait to get a Turbo S (two years) so used prices stay firm.

I don’t dispute what your SE is telling you but I am not surprised that C2S’s are in relatively short supply. Based on what happened during the 991.2 life cycle they would be anyway.

This is very useful intel @Cheib , thanks for sharing.

I don’t mind waiting for the C2S and I am even willing to wait for the 992.2 , I would just like some more certainty of the process.

On that note, I recall one journo mentioned that Porsche is staying true to their cycle of 4+3 years per model. I.e. 992 was launched in 2019 as 2020MY, and we can expect 992.2 to be launched in 2024, run for 3 years and be replaced by new model.

Time flies, we will soon find out if this cycle will continue.

[neilf]

Similar story from my OPC. Was at an event organised by them on Sunday. Enquired with my usual SE about a base Carrera allocation. “Two years” was his simple response.

[bosshog]

esotericar said:

That said, I do think the huge supply of GT cars in the last decade will eventually be an issue for residuals.

Perhaps for the silly priced ones, but generally speaking I suspect demand will always be very high for GT cars and this will keep prices inflated much higher than the standard models. Maybe not 80% but at least 30-40%

[Pivo]

At this time of electronics shortages, I wish Porsche would release dumbed-down retro car, but it will not pass the guys with thick glasses, clipboard and hi-vis jackets.

[Pivo]

I visited OPC Reading today, as it is closer to the GB mothership. I enquired about new order for 911 GTS , thinking that it might have shorted queue and lead-times.

I was advised that the guidance is mid-2024, but it is merely an educated guesstimate. Also , Porsche GB no longer issue a chart for different 911 derivatives, they are all in 2024 bucket.

Final, interesting point is that they have 14 GTS orders on their books, so I would be # 15.

All of a sudden I am content that I am #3 at another OPC 🤓

[esotericar]

Pivo said:

At this time of electronics shortages, I wish Porsche would release dumbed-down retro car, but it will not pass the guys with thick glasses, clipboard and hi-vis jackets.

Whatever the situation in the UK, Porsche is definitely not having a problem making 911s. Last year was a record year for 911 volumes (I think, certainly a very high figure for 911s), this year will be higher yet.

Global 911 deliveries according to Porsche:

19,377 2011
25,457 2012
30,205 2013
30,510 2014
31,350 2015
32,409 2016
32,197 2017
35,573 2018
34,800 2019
34,328 2020
38,464 2021

First half of 2022 was 21,616 911 deliveries. So more deliveries in the first half of this year than the whole of 2011. But somehow there's a massive supply shortage caused by pandemic and chips!

[cayman-black]

This is why the 911 is so special and pricey, so few are made!

[esotericar]

One would also assume that all the OPCs in the UK are about to go broke if the stories the 'SEs' are telling are true.

If they really are only getting a small fraction of the allocations they used to get, then they will also be making far, far less money. They're not going to survive on the sorts of numbers people have been talking about on this thread, that's for sure.

[Pivo]

OPC have uncapped margins on second hand vehicles. Considering that +70% of one million of 911 ever built are still on the road, parts and service will be another major profit driver, so OPC are not at risk anytime soon.

[esotericar]

Pivo said:

OPC have uncapped margins on second hand vehicles. Considering that +70% of one million of 911 ever built are still on the road, parts and service will be another major profit driver, so OPC are not at risk anytime soon.

I disagree.

They primarily deal in nearly new cars. And by definition the largest margins are in nearly newest cars. If the stories are correct, the supply of which in the UK is vanishing. Ditto servicing. As the cars age, they rapidly fall out of the network.

If the stories are true re limited UK supply, all of the OPC network's income streams will be hit and hard. It's just the new cars sales revenues will be hit first.

The tiny numbers these SEs are talking about are not going to provide a sustainable business for them.

[Davidkn]

Pivo said:

I visited OPC Reading today, as it is closer to the GB mothership. I enquired about new order for 911 GTS , thinking that it might have shorted queue and lead-times.

I was advised that the guidance is mid-2024, but it is merely an educated guesstimate. Also , Porsche GB no longer issue a chart for different 911 derivatives, they are all in 2024 bucket.

Final, interesting point is that they have 14 GTS orders on their books, so I would be # 15.

All of a sudden I am content that I am #3 at another OPC ??

theres different queues for each model though, so theres a queue for (I think, or it could just be model shape and not 2 or 4 wd, although if you have an order for a 2wd car, you cant swap the same allocation for a 4wd one) 2wd coupe, 2wd cab, 4wd coupe, 2wd cab, targa etc, so if they say they have 14 GTS orders, that could only be 2x 2wd cabs etc.

[Pivo]

Davidkn said:

theres different queues for each model though, so theres a queue for (I think, or it could just be model shape and not 2 or 4 wd, although if you have an order for a 2wd car, you cant swap the same allocation for a 4wd one) 2wd coupe, 2wd cab, 4wd coupe, 2wd cab, targa etc, so if they say they have 14 GTS orders, that could only be 2x 2wd cabs etc.

I agree, each derivative has a separate queue, however Porsche GB forecast doesn’t differentiate.

Last year I saw Porsche-GB one-pager forecast chart, showing which quarter one can expect which derivative. I selected C2S and I was 4-th on the list.

Today I enquired about GTS, considering a second (parallel) order at diff OPC. The forecast is mid-2024, for all derivatives. I would be 15th in the queue… no point wasting time. C2S has to be sooner.

The OPC guys simply don’t know, so they are trying to manage our expectations. That is all to it.

[Docmem]

Pivo said:

Davidkn said:

theres different queues for each model though, so theres a queue for (I think, or it could just be model shape and not 2 or 4 wd, although if you have an order for a 2wd car, you cant swap the same allocation for a 4wd one) 2wd coupe, 2wd cab, 4wd coupe, 2wd cab, targa etc, so if they say they have 14 GTS orders, that could only be 2x 2wd cabs etc.

I agree, each derivative has a separate queue, however Porsche GB forecast doesn’t differentiate.

Last year I saw Porsche-GB one-pager forecast chart, showing which quarter one can expect which derivative. I selected C2S and I was 4-th on the list.

Today I enquired about GTS, considering a second (parallel) order at diff OPC. The forecast is mid-2024, for all derivatives. I would be 15th in the queue… no point wasting time. C2S has to be sooner.

The OPC guys simply don’t know, so they are trying to manage our expectations. That is all to it.

My Porsche dealer showed me a list of how many cars of each variant are on order and what is the expected allocation. For example they had allocation of 5 DTS in 2023 and there were 15 on the list. For a C2 they had 2 allocations and % on the waiting list. So there were different queues for each variant and that probably varies from dealer to dealer. I wish someone from a Porsche dealership should join the discussion and let us know how it works!

[jdwoodbury]

I ordered my 992 C2S in August 2020 and it was delivered in Nov 2020, wow how times have changed!

[politeperson]

So to summarise the situation then,
The definition of a second hand car could be as little as a car one month old with 150 miles on the clock.
Porsche have been delivering record numbers of 911s recently, however you cannot have one quickly because the dealers have been buying them all new and then selling them "second hand" with large uncapped margins.
Porsche's preference is to produce and sell the cars with the highest profits margins, as befits the aims of a car manufacturer, so the waiting list for the cheaper models is longer then the GT spec cars as GT spec cars have more profit in them.

As I said a couple of months ago, there must be a bit of tension between the manufacturer and the dealer.