GT4 funds burning a hole in my pocket.....

[Mario149]

If you want to know how much better a C GTS will hold its value compared to an S, just look at the %tage difference between a 997.2 S and GTS. Last time I checked GTSs were holding at about 10% over the equivalent S

[SFO]

Mario149 said:

If you want to know how much better a C GTS will hold its value compared to an S, just look at the %tage difference between a 997.2 S and GTS. Last time I checked GTSs were holding at about 10% over the equivalent S

997 and 991 GTS had/has substantially more power with a powerkit rather than just ECU changes, plus wider rear body and special Center lock wheels. More of a "GTS" model than 981 GTS models

[Mario149]

SFO said:

Mario149 said:

If you want to know how much better a C GTS will hold its value compared to an S, just look at the %tage difference between a 997.2 S and GTS. Last time I checked GTSs were holding at about 10% over the equivalent S

997 and 991 GTS had/has substantially more power with a powerkit rather than just ECU changes, plus wider rear body and special Center lock wheels. More of a "GTS" model than 981 GTS models

Good points, but in the short/medium term and outside of forums it doesn't really matter about the specifics of what they've done, just how the public perceive it. I've only found one review of the 981 GTSs where the reviewer basically said don't bother just get an S, compared to a myriad of other review where they say the small changes add up to make it a noticeably better car and make it worth the money, much like they said for the 997 models.

And if we dive back into the forum world and long term desirability, the 981 GTS will be the last, most powerful NA Cayster (that's not a limited GT/Spyder car) they'll make which will ensure it always has an enthusiast following, much like the 991 GTS will by the same reasoning. Especially if you've opted for the (albeit stupidly ratioed) manual 'box.

[Axel987]

Cayman GTS is an S with a Soundpipe and some contrast stiching. Not my wish to get GTS owners all riled ut but its a fact. BHP advantage is throttle opening and map and nothing else, according to my automotive sources in germany. Its the same car. Flash an S with GTS software and you have a GTS in all but contrast stitching

997 GTS different kettle, 408 bhp NA hydraulic steering fat arse etc... much more desirable.

[SFO]

Mario149 said:

And if we dive back into the forum world and long term desirability, the 981 GTS will be the last, most powerful NA Cayster (that's not a limited GT/Spyder car) they'll make which will ensure it always has an enthusiast following, much like the 991 GTS will by the same reasoning. Especially if you've opted for the (albeit stupidly ratioed) manual 'box.

I think you may be justifying your B GTS purchase ...

981 GTS is nothing like a 997/991 GTS

[Axel987]

SFO said:

Mario149 said:

And if we dive back into the forum world and long term desirability, the 981 GTS will be the last, most powerful NA Cayster (that's not a limited GT/Spyder car) they'll make which will ensure it always has an enthusiast following, much like the 991 GTS will by the same reasoning. Especially if you've opted for the (albeit stupidly ratioed) manual 'box.

I think you may be justifying your B GTS purchase ...

981 GTS is nothing like a 997/991 GTS

+1

[Mario149]

Axel987 said:

Cayman GTS is an S with a Soundpipe and some contrast stiching. Not my wish to get GTS owners all riled ut but its a fact. BHP advantage is throttle opening and map and nothing else, according to my automotive sources in germany. Its the same car. Flash an S with GTS software and you have a GTS in all but contrast stitching

None of which the average punter knows or cares about. I'm not knocking the 997 GTS, or any other GTS model for that matter. But people are kidding themselves if they think the average person that goes into a Porsche dealer to buy one cares whether the extra ponies come from a different map or a few parts of the engine they'll never see.

[Axel987]

Thing is Porsche geeks fawning over the 997/991 GTS models is what keeps the values so high, if they werent there the only ones paying a large premium would be the clueless ones. Writing is on the wall me thinks, yes the GTS will demand a premium over the S, maybe 5k - but nowhere near the 911 GTS`es...

[Mario149]

SFO said:

Mario149 said:

And if we dive back into the forum world and long term desirability, the 981 GTS will be the last, most powerful NA Cayster (that's not a limited GT/Spyder car) they'll make which will ensure it always has an enthusiast following, much like the 991 GTS will by the same reasoning. Especially if you've opted for the (albeit stupidly ratioed) manual 'box.

I think you may be justifying your B GTS purchase ...

981 GTS is nothing like a 997/991 GTS

I think you may be leaping to conclusions, I don't need to justify anything. With a 997 GT3 in my stable, the 997 GTS looks distinctly like a tarted up trim level of run of the mill 997, a few minor mechanical differences to the S model or not. But that's not the point, it is what it is and that is a great car in its own right and when compared to the S model, ditto the 981 GTS. If the 997 GTS got its extra 20bhp or so just from a remap and not from a mechanical change, the number of people who would have opted not to buy one for that reason would have been tiny. The only people that it may possibly have made a difference to are on this forum and a few others like it and we don't affect the market diddly squat in the grand scheme of things.

Edited by Mario149 on Friday 26th June 15:56

[Mario149]

Axel987 said:

Thing is Porsche geeks fawning over the 997/991 GTS models is what keeps the values so high, if they werent there the only ones paying a large premium would be the clueless ones. Writing is on the wall me thinks, yes the GTS will demand a premium over the S, maybe 5k - but nowhere near the 911 GTS`es...

Time will tell, but if it's a matter of fawning, you see just as much for the 981 GTSs on here as the 997 and 991 GTS models. If not even more as there are more 981 GTS owners

[ORD]

Not sure about that. I would pay the premium for a 997 GTS because it has a notably better power delivery at the top end - see the contrast between the power & torque curves for the GTS and the S.

I don't think that Average Joe would pay £10k extra for a 997 GTS. I think it is people like us who would. And we know why it's worth the extra money.

Not true for the 981 GTS. It really is a trim level for the S.

[Mario149]

ORD said:

Not sure about that. I would pay the premium for a 997 GTS because it has a notably better power delivery at the top end - see the contrast between the power & torque curves for the GTS and the S.

Ditto the 981 GTS. Look how much plumper the torque curve is after 6000rpm on the GTS

ORD said:

I don't think that Average Joe would pay £10k extra for a 997 GTS. I think it is people like us who would. And we know why it's worth the extra money.

Not true for the 981 GTS. It really is a trim level for the S.

I think that's exactly what average Joe would pay £10K for - extra toys for their shiny new car. As a bundle, the GTS options that came standard on 997s and 981s work out great value compared to just adding them to an S model. So if you were going for a high spec S anyway, GTS makes a lot of sense

Edited by Mario149 on Friday 26th June 16:28

[Axel987]

well said.

[bcr5784]

ORD said:

Not true for the 981 GTS. It really is a trim level for the S.

While that is true I don't think even the people on this forum see it that way - more's the pity for us S owners. They were falling over themselves to get a GTS rather than an S - and by and large paying top dollar as a result. Fair enough if you really want most of the GTS bits - not if you don't. I think I am in a small minority in saying I actually prefer an S (to the spec I want) to a GTS (with bits I don't).

[ORD]

Forgive me, guys - I was talking about second hand values.

As a new car, I too might well get a GTS over an S (it might end up costing the same once you option it). I am just not persuaded that the GTS is actually special enough to command much of a premium, unlike the 997.

[Axel987]

The Engine is 100% the same Mario149, a reflash with GTS software and there is no difference.

[Mario149]

Axel987 said:

The Engine is 100% the same Mario149, a reflash with GTS software and there is no difference.

Oh FFS axel, are you being deliberately obtuse?! I *know*, we all know, but the market does not see it like that, what I'm trying to get across is that perception is everything here. Otherwise where are the reams of S owners waxing lyrical about their remaps and their GTS power figures?

For a new buy for someone like me, the GTS offers an out of the box package with respectable performance and options I would have added anyway and makes a new 991 of any flavour other than GT3 or base manual Carrera with a few choice driver orientated options look outrageously over priced.

For a second hand buy where the vast majority of people are looking are not on our lovely geeky forums, they're gonna read reviews, watch you tube videos and see Chris Harris/Evo et al bigging up the GTS over the S and a remap isn't going to even register in their consciousness.

Good news for people here who want GTS power without the cost (and yes I might stick a Carrera map on mine), irrelevant to the wider market which decides the prices.

[nsm3]

My S PDK has all of the mech parts of a GTS, just lacking the bodywork, interior, power/PSE tweaks and came in at £65k.

My beef with Porsche is that the GTS wasn't available or mentioned when I ordered (appeared about 6 months later) and I'm sure for another couple of grand max, I would have opted for the GTS, which without doubt has torn a chunk off the residuals on my car - bds.

[bcr5784]

nsm3 said:

My S PDK has all of the mech parts of a GTS, just lacking the bodywork, interior, power/PSE tweaks and came in at £65k.

My beef with Porsche is that the GTS wasn't available or mentioned when I ordered (appeared about 6 months later) and I'm sure for another couple of grand max, I would have opted for the GTS, which without doubt has torn a chunk off the residuals on my car - bds.

I took a different approach - which is probably still valid for some now. The GTS was out when I bought mine - and specced with the bits I want would have been about 61k. Instead I bought a secondhand S (from and OPC) with 700 miles (yes hundred) on the clock for just under 50K (would have been 58k new) - with very close to the spec I wanted and a few odds and sods that I wasn't fussed about. Will it be worth 11k less in (say) 3 years time. I very much doubt it.

Of course I didn't have the luxury of getting EXACTLY the spec I wanted - and that will be important to many.

But the situation now is that you will probably have a long wait for a new GTS or have to buy low mileage secondhand one (if examples I've seen are anything to go by) at NEW PRICES. On the other hand you could get a low mileage (or new I suspect) S at a significant discount. I don't think you will lose in the long term. Of course that is no good if you wouldn't be perfectly happy with the spec that you bought.

[Mario149]

bcr5784 said:

Of course I didn't have the luxury of getting EXACTLY the spec I wanted - and that will be important to many.

This^^. My BGTS will be the first new (and likely the last, certainly for a while at least) car I've ever bought. Didn't plan to and if you'd asked me one year ago the car wasn't even a twinkle in my eye I should think. But, a confluence of events (550 prices rocketing and allowing me to make some decent money on a 550 I sold, new gen 981s/991s being announced as 4cyls and/or turbo) meant I had the final and only sensible (if it can be called that) opportunity to buy a brand new Porsche to my exact spec (unusual colour combo and all), a bucket list item if you will. And to do factory collection and post-collection road trip round Europe. I'll no doubt lose a packet, but I won't have any regrets