981 Winter Tyres - first report
Discussion
Having been frustrated at the lack of informative reviews on Porsche designated Winter tyres (and Summer ones too), and having recently fitted a set of Dunlop Winter Sport 3Ds, I'm starting this thread hoping that others with experience will chip in so others will have something to go on.
The car is a 981S normally fitted with 19" wheels and Pzeros. I purchased a set of 18" wheels with near new Eagle F1s and have done a (very) few miles on them, and I can make some (albeit tentative) comparisons with them too.
I went 18" for no other reason that the wheels are far cheaper on ebay than 19 or 20s, while still recommended by Porsche. (Oddly Porsche are OK with an S on 18" winter tyres, but not Summer ones). I chose Dunlops, rather the alternative Pirellis (I couldn't find any other N options), partly because I'm a cheapskate (they are a bit cheaper), partly because Pirellis get good ratings - but based on their snow performance which is not that important to me - and partly because I don't like the Pzeros (a pretty weak reason, I know).
I've only done about 200 miles on the Dunlops so far and on dry and damp roads at temps of 0-5C, so my findings are far from complete, but here goes.
The good news:
1) The scrubbing and scrabbling on lock which gets ever worse in lower temperatures with the Pirellis has GONE - at least so far.
2) The road roar that can drown out all other noise on some course surfaces with the Pirellis is no longer an issue at all.
The bad news:
1) The steering about the straight ahead is noticeably less precise (worse than the Goodyears too). That doesn't translate into understeer at normal speeds though (as it does on the Goodyears) because the back is quite "loose" too.
2) Bump thump (very well suppressed on Pirellis) is much worse, and the ride as a whole is noticeably less smooth. I normally use PASM in Sport with the Pirellis, I'm more inclined to use Normal with the Dunlops. The Goodyears give an even better ride than the Pirellis.
The thing that is both good and bad.
The car has a much less "planted" feel - not so good on high speed sweepers on motorways and dual carriageways. I'd be inclined to believe (but it's very subjective) that outright grip is down relative to the Pirellis in the conditions I've run - even at 5C. HOWEVER the upside of that is that the car is much more throttle adjustable and therefore more fun at lower speeds.
It will be interesting to see things go in really wet conditions
The car is a 981S normally fitted with 19" wheels and Pzeros. I purchased a set of 18" wheels with near new Eagle F1s and have done a (very) few miles on them, and I can make some (albeit tentative) comparisons with them too.
I went 18" for no other reason that the wheels are far cheaper on ebay than 19 or 20s, while still recommended by Porsche. (Oddly Porsche are OK with an S on 18" winter tyres, but not Summer ones). I chose Dunlops, rather the alternative Pirellis (I couldn't find any other N options), partly because I'm a cheapskate (they are a bit cheaper), partly because Pirellis get good ratings - but based on their snow performance which is not that important to me - and partly because I don't like the Pzeros (a pretty weak reason, I know).
I've only done about 200 miles on the Dunlops so far and on dry and damp roads at temps of 0-5C, so my findings are far from complete, but here goes.
The good news:
1) The scrubbing and scrabbling on lock which gets ever worse in lower temperatures with the Pirellis has GONE - at least so far.
2) The road roar that can drown out all other noise on some course surfaces with the Pirellis is no longer an issue at all.
The bad news:
1) The steering about the straight ahead is noticeably less precise (worse than the Goodyears too). That doesn't translate into understeer at normal speeds though (as it does on the Goodyears) because the back is quite "loose" too.
2) Bump thump (very well suppressed on Pirellis) is much worse, and the ride as a whole is noticeably less smooth. I normally use PASM in Sport with the Pirellis, I'm more inclined to use Normal with the Dunlops. The Goodyears give an even better ride than the Pirellis.
The thing that is both good and bad.
The car has a much less "planted" feel - not so good on high speed sweepers on motorways and dual carriageways. I'd be inclined to believe (but it's very subjective) that outright grip is down relative to the Pirellis in the conditions I've run - even at 5C. HOWEVER the upside of that is that the car is much more throttle adjustable and therefore more fun at lower speeds.
It will be interesting to see things go in really wet conditions
bcr5784 said:
The scrubbing and scrabbling on lock which gets ever worse in lower temperatures with the Pirellis has GONE - at least so far.
The scrubbing and scrabbling occurs when tyre slip releases pressure/tension in the geometry - which is set for "speed" rather than "parking". With grippy tyres the pressure/tension cannot be released and all the components experience higher bending forces. So you run the risk of wearing/damaging your car more quickly.Ozzie Osmond said:
The scrubbing and scrabbling occurs when tyre slip releases pressure/tension in the geometry - which is set for "speed" rather than "parking". With grippy tyres the pressure/tension cannot be released and all the components experience higher bending forces. So you run the risk of wearing/damaging your car more quickly.
Not sure what you are getting at Ozzie. The scrubbing is because of lack of ackermann which all 981s suffer from. It's worse with normal summer tyres because there is much more resistence to block movement with the larger blocks they have - and gets worse as the weather gets colder and rubber gets less flexible. Winter tyres REDUCE it - and the stresses it causes on the suspension. It will also likely be worse with lower profile tyres because their sidewalls are less flexible.BertBert said:
How are the Dunlops in snow?
I wonder if I have the wrong expectation. I pretty much expect winter tyres to perform worse than normal all-year tyres in almost all conditions apart from snow. Do you think they will produce better cold, wet performance too?
Bert
Your expectations seem to be borne out - in case of sheer grip. I have to say the lack of scrub at parking speeds is a big plus and down a winding country lane the throttle adjustability can make it more entertaining. More capable, no, more fun, perhaps. Haven't gone far enough to come to final conclusion and as I say no experience of real wet or snow as yet. I wonder if I have the wrong expectation. I pretty much expect winter tyres to perform worse than normal all-year tyres in almost all conditions apart from snow. Do you think they will produce better cold, wet performance too?
Bert
EGTE said:
Are your Winters Run-flats? I have the same make on a BMW and they are RFTs.
Would explain the worse ride; RFTs are truly horrible things (but tolerable for a month or two).
No, Porsche don't do run flats on Caysters. The ride certainly isn't horrible, but clearly worse - probably the biggest surprise to me.Would explain the worse ride; RFTs are truly horrible things (but tolerable for a month or two).
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Personally I can't see why all winter tyres should be much of a muchness, any more than summer ones are. I would just like to choose a set of tyres where the tyre manufacturers priorities best accord with my own. Tests such as http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2015-Auto-Bil...suggest that differences are quite significant. Dramatic? perhaps not - but then you might argue the same of summer tyres. Certainly the differences seem significant enough to sway my choice of rubber if my car wasn't still under warranty.
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 21st January 08:35
Like you I swapped my 'summer' wheels and tyres for a 'winter' set, but I have 20" summers and 19" winters. I'm now in my second winter in the 981S. My pro's and cons are the same as yours. In regular day to day driving the winter tyres aren't particularly noticeable but press on a bit and they feel 'squishy'.
Ironically we've not had any snow fall to test them with but generally speaking they do feel more grippy at close to freezing temps.
Ironically we've not had any snow fall to test them with but generally speaking they do feel more grippy at close to freezing temps.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Fact is tyre brand AND profile (rather than wheel size as such) AND geo all can have quite noticeable effects - and it's not sensible to focus on one and ignore the others. And your choices may well be very different if your car is DD, fair weather toy or track weapon. anonymous said:
[redacted]
Who rides around on fashion spec wheels? Certainly not me. 295 cotton reels of whatever brand are a red herring not fitted to any mainstream 981 Cayman or S. Not sure why you should mention them - it's nothing to do with the topic which is (or at least was) about the smallest of the options for an 981 S (and 18s are not even an option for an S on summer tyres). Can we get back to the topic - I think it would be helpful to a lot of people (and especially me) if people pooled their experience of the various brands of standard size tyres.
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 21st January 15:59
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The Dunlops ARE on 18s!!! I bought the 18s in the first place to fit them to.Can you let someone who has some relevant input - whether it be on 18's 19's or 20's input? You have got your thing on 18's but not everyone agrees.
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 21st January 17:49
bcr5784 said:
Can we get back to the topic - I think it would be helpful to a lot of people (and especially me) if people pooled their experience of the various brands of standard size tyres.
I have experience of Kumho KW23 winter tyres on 16 inch wheels on my old 986 boxster. As Cmoose says, they were great close to freezing and felt decidedly squidgy above 5 degrees. Felt like I was in a 2CV going round corners...but they never let go because they still grip really well.Only experience I've had is with Pirelli scorpions on the KN Turbo
Actually needed them properly one winter - think 3-4 ft of snow and rural roads...
Made a huge difference - to the extent I could tow a bloody huge volvo in reverse up a steep sloped road with sheet ice (dozy bugger had decided his slick shod Dog carrier estate was fine in these conditions...). The road was so slippy when I got out of the car I promptly went base over apex...
Even managed to scoop a set of OEM 18" rims for £60 off of eBay - mint condition too !
The other halfs WRX STi currency has it's winters on - Goodride something or other - nice and cheap
They are actually pretty good
The PS2's were getting a bit scrabbly for grip in the cooler past few weeks, so a week or so ago the winters went on.
Just as the temps dropped. Which was nice.
I'm quite surprised how good they actually feel - not very squishy, and loads of grip on wet / damp / dry roads.
a little more grip than the Cup2's on my GT3
Actually needed them properly one winter - think 3-4 ft of snow and rural roads...
Made a huge difference - to the extent I could tow a bloody huge volvo in reverse up a steep sloped road with sheet ice (dozy bugger had decided his slick shod Dog carrier estate was fine in these conditions...). The road was so slippy when I got out of the car I promptly went base over apex...
Even managed to scoop a set of OEM 18" rims for £60 off of eBay - mint condition too !
The other halfs WRX STi currency has it's winters on - Goodride something or other - nice and cheap
They are actually pretty good
The PS2's were getting a bit scrabbly for grip in the cooler past few weeks, so a week or so ago the winters went on.
Just as the temps dropped. Which was nice.
I'm quite surprised how good they actually feel - not very squishy, and loads of grip on wet / damp / dry roads.
a little more grip than the Cup2's on my GT3
sootyvrs said:
I have 19" winters (Conti TS830) on mine... second winter now and although obviously not as good as summer tyres in temps above 7 degrees, they were a revalation in the occasional snow we had last year!
That seems to be coming through strongly. What about other aspects - ride? roadnoise? scrubbing? steering? I was very surprised that the ride was noticeably worse on the Dunlops though other effects were, perhaps, more predicable.Where does this 7 degrees thing come from? It's like Newton's 9th law (point predicated on Newts publishing 8 or less laws #obvs) comes out time after time.
What does it mean? Where does it come from? I struggle with the concept that at lunchtime today, there would be any substantial difference to winter or normal tyre performance from how they work now (about 3.5 degrees now, going to be 10 later).
Bert
What does it mean? Where does it come from? I struggle with the concept that at lunchtime today, there would be any substantial difference to winter or normal tyre performance from how they work now (about 3.5 degrees now, going to be 10 later).
Bert
bcr5784 said:
That seems to be coming through strongly. What about other aspects - ride? roadnoise? scrubbing? steering? I was very surprised that the ride was noticeably worse on the Dunlops though other effects were, perhaps, more predicable.
I would say road noise is less than with the std. P Zero tyres (19" summer wheels too with same aspect tyres)... No scrubbing on or near full lock... steering feel perhaps is not as precise but acceptable compromises when fitting winter tyres..As relating to the 7 degree statement... it was said tongue in cheek as it's commonly heard that 7 degrees is the threshold when winter tyres become more effective than summer tyres (in certain curcumstances).. I perhaps should have said when it's "COLD"
anonymous said:
[redacted]
True - but an odd db is barely audible. 3db is audible - but not huge. The difference on course surfaces between Pzeros and D3s is far far more than the ratings would indicate - though overall they might be quite valid. To put some meat on that. With Pzeros when cruising on smooth motorway surfaces (in 7th) tyre noise is always the loudest sound but wind and engine noise are still audible - and conversation in normal voices is no problem. On course ones tyre roar completely dominates and makes conversation more difficult. With D3s there is only a small difference between smooth and course surface noise and conversation in normal voices is no problem.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 23 January 09:08
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I was a hifi nut, I know. A 1db change is JUST audible in controlled conditions - It's normally defined as the smallest change in sound the human ear can detect. I'd doubt you could be sure of a change that small in a car, particularly as the nature of the sound as well as its intensity changes. 3db - you would probably notice, but it's not huge - but the difference between the Dunlops and Pirellis on coarse surfaces is much more - 10db? perhaps - I don't have a sound meter and my ears haven't been calibrated recently.Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 23 January 10:41
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 23 January 10:49
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