Cayman R Chat

[boxsey]

Porsche911R said:

boxsey said:

Although we all agree that the standard steel brakes on an R are no where near good enough for the rest of the car I never had the brake pedal go to the floor when on track with the standard MC. So although they're not the best stoppers they never let me down. I also found that they were easier to modulate and threshold brake when I changed to the GT3 MC.

I thought you said to me the reason you went with the GT3 MC was more a confidence issue because your pedal did goto the floor on track !
maybe my memory is wrong :-)

Your memory is nearly right...I did not like the standard MC on track because it gives a very long pedal (IMO) but it never bottomed out and left me without brakes. I liked the GT3 MC because I didn't have to extend my leg as far to get to the threshold point (like you I don't like to get into the ABS on track). I think the R would only be in danger of running out of brakes if someone tried to do an hour of lapping which would be a daft thing to do anyway.

[ajondyh]

boxsey said:

Porsche911R said:

boxsey said:

Although we all agree that the standard steel brakes on an R are no where near good enough for the rest of the car I never had the brake pedal go to the floor when on track with the standard MC. So although they're not the best stoppers they never let me down. I also found that they were easier to modulate and threshold brake when I changed to the GT3 MC.

I thought you said to me the reason you went with the GT3 MC was more a confidence issue because your pedal did goto the floor on track !
maybe my memory is wrong :-)

Your memory is nearly right...I did not like the standard MC on track because it gives a very long pedal (IMO) but it never bottomed out and left me without brakes. I liked the GT3 MC because I didn't have to extend my leg as far to get to the threshold point (like you I don't like to get into the ABS on track). I think the R would only be in danger of running out of brakes if someone tried to do an hour of lapping which would be a daft thing to do anyway.

It does give a long pedal when hot which can be disconcerting. The GT3 MC cures this effect and although it doesn't improve the braking on the car it gives you much more confidence in the pedal and a better driving experience especially on track.

[Slippydiff]

boxsey said:

Although we all agree that the standard steel brakes on an R are no where near good enough for the rest of the car I never had the brake pedal go to the floor when on track with the standard MC. So although they're not the best stoppers they never let me down. I also found that they were easier to modulate and threshold brake when I changed to the GT3 MC.

Precisely this Steve ^ I'd personally much rather have a rock solid "platform" to heel and toe with, it in turn makes threshold braking far easier than with the hopeless mush the standard MC provides. But we are all different

FWiW I thought the standard discs and pads (in perfect condition) along with the GT3 MC and decent fluid were ok for fast road work, but ... you can never have brakes that are "too good", and I'm pretty sure that some bigger diameter and thicker front discs utilising the standard calipers spaced out with a pad upgrade (and I suspect you wouldn't need to go to the extremes of RS29 or Endless pads) would be perfect for fast road use AND extended track use without the need for an expensive caliper upgrade.

[Rsx Boy]

Thanks 911R

Porsche911R said:

a PCCB car is worth it even if you bin the disks later :-) they are about £15k to replace, not £5k also.

the R' is under braked and thus has heat issues, people only fit the GT3 MC due to pedal feel and guess what pedal feels goes to the floor when they get hot, the GT3 MC stop them going to the floor !. GT3 MC is a crap option always has been and over looks the issue of heat in these cars, in fact fitting a GT3 MC might even be dangerous, as on a normal system when the pedal starts to go long you get a bit of warning your brakes are starting to fade, if you have very little pedal movement you might stay out longer with a GT3 MC and just end up with total brake fade, and go straight on at the next bend !

The PCCB car has 350MM disks all round and GT3 6 pot calipers !!! no issue with heat there so no GT3 MC needed as the pedal is great as no heat issues ! Although this system does have a slightly larger MC which sits in between the oem and GT3 one. That's also the one to fit if you go 340mm disks, I would avoid the GT3 one at all costs, imo it reduced pedal travel to a point it makes it hard to threshold brake, and in the R that's a must have skill due to the poor ABS, you need to avoid ABS at all costs and for that you need a bit of pedal travel imo you don't want an on off switch pedal !

when your disks wear you just buy a set of 2 piece 350mm race disks. win win. fitting a 350mm disk set up and 6 pots would cost you £5k to 10k depending how mad you went.

You get a free upgrade with a PCCB car to a GT3 setup :-) even if you take the ceramic disks off and box them up.

[Rsx Boy]

Thanks all for the brake opinions too. All good info.

How much £ would a GT3 Master Cylinder cost to buy and then have fitted ?
Does it make sense to factor in braided steel lines while you are at it ???

Have any of you CR owners used JZM / RPM/ ANother to do this work ?

[Joehow]

Rsx Boy said:

Thanks all for the brake opinions too. All good info.

How much £ would a GT3 Master Cylinder cost to buy and then have fitted ?
Does it make sense to factor in braided steel lines while you are at it ???

Have any of you CR owners used JZM / RPM/ ANother to do this work ?

PARR have done it for me before and will be doing it again - supplied and fitted for £482+vat.

Ricky at JZM certainly could do it. Ive got nothing but time for those guys.

[Rsx Boy]

Cheers.

Joehow said:

PARR have done it for me before and will be doing it again - supplied and fitted for £482+vat.

Ricky at JZM certainly could do it. Ive got nothing but time for those guys.

[Porsche911R]

Rsx Boy said:

Thanks all for the brake opinions too. All good info.

How much £ would a GT3 Master Cylinder cost to buy and then have fitted ?
Does it make sense to factor in braided steel lines while you are at it ???

Have any of you CR owners used JZM / RPM/ ANother to do this work ?

why do you want one ?

serious question ;-)

[boxsey]

Porsche911R said:

Rsx Boy said:

Thanks all for the brake opinions too. All good info.

How much £ would a GT3 Master Cylinder cost to buy and then have fitted ?
Does it make sense to factor in braided steel lines while you are at it ???

Have any of you CR owners used JZM / RPM/ ANother to do this work ?

why do you want one ?

serious question ;-)

Probably because everyone that has had one fitted likes it!

[Slippydiff]

boxsey said:

Porsche911R said:

Rsx Boy said:

Thanks all for the brake opinions too. All good info.

How much £ would a GT3 Master Cylinder cost to buy and then have fitted ?
Does it make sense to factor in braided steel lines while you are at it ???

Have any of you CR owners used JZM / RPM/ ANother to do this work ?

why do you want one ?

serious question ;-)

Probably because everyone that has had one fitted likes it!

Well not everyone clearly ... there's ALWAYS one dissenting voice
Personally speaking I thought it a good mod, sure it may mask what may be an intrinsic problem with the 987 brakes, but it works, and that's all that matters. And when all is said and done, confidence is everything when it comes to brakes, the MC mod definitely instills more confidence in what are mediocre brakes "out of the box".

[Porsche911R]

Slippydiff said:

Well not everyone clearly ... there's ALWAYS one dissenting voice
Personally speaking I thought it a good mod, sure it may mask what may be an intrinsic problem with the 987 brakes, but it works, and that's all that matters. And when all is said and done, confidence is everything when it comes to brakes, the MC mod definitely instills more confidence in what are mediocre brakes "out of the box".

I don't understand why it offers more confidence, In the oem unit if the pedal starts to get long it is a good warning sign of brake fade, so come in.

Also as per you last post, it does not offer a solid pedal feel. it's offers a harder pedal, but that's no firmer or more solid !

only way to get that is a Re-bleed of the system, inc ABS and both sides of the caliper.

A firm pedal or solid end point like a 996GT3 is never going to happen in the R due to the brake booster or the other 3 or 4 things causing issues which no one ever solved it seems.

When a pro fits a new GT3 MC, you are getting 2 things a harder pedal with less movement, that's agiven, and that's also subjective as I would take a pedal with 3" movement over one with 1.5" myself.

But the net effect of a pro fitting a GT3 MC is the full re-bleed of the whole system inc. ABS unit. So you are gaining this firm pedal as a net effect of fitting the MC, not due to it.

it a tricky subject imo, as when I get my brakes in for a re-bleed, inc, the ABS and both sides of the calipers one ends up with a nice firm pedal for a while.

after a few heat cycles they go off, and I get air from the inner bleed nipples. A bigger MC does mask that as people confuse a hard pedal with a firm pedal ! but alass you get the same mushy pedal and end point with either MC.

[Rsx Boy]

Porsche911R said:

Slippydiff said:

Well not everyone clearly ... there's ALWAYS one dissenting voice
Personally speaking I thought it a good mod, sure it may mask what may be an intrinsic problem with the 987 brakes, but it works, and that's all that matters. And when all is said and done, confidence is everything when it comes to brakes, the MC mod definitely instills more confidence in what are mediocre brakes "out of the box".

I don't understand why it offers more confidence, In the oem unit if the pedal starts to get long it is a good warning sign of brake fade, so come in.

Also as per you last post, it does not offer a solid pedal feel. it's offers a harder pedal, but that's no firmer or more solid !

only way to get that is a Re-bleed of the system, inc ABS and both sides of the caliper.

A firm pedal or solid end point like a 996GT3 is never going to happen in the R due to the brake booster or the other 3 or 4 things causing issues which no one ever solved it seems.

When a pro fits a new GT3 MC, you are getting 2 things a harder pedal with less movement, that's agiven, and that's also subjective as I would take a pedal with 3" movement over one with 1.5" myself.

But the net effect of a pro fitting a GT3 MC is the full re-bleed of the whole system inc. ABS unit. So you are gaining this firm pedal as a net effect of fitting the MC, not due to it.

it a tricky subject imo, as when I get my brakes in for a re-bleed, inc, the ABS and both sides of the calipers one ends up with a nice firm pedal for a while.

after a few heat cycles they go off, and I get air from the inner bleed nipples. A bigger MC does mask that as people confuse a hard pedal with a firm pedal ! but alass you get the same mushy pedal and end point with either MC.

911R - Clearly you are working your brake system harder than others to create air in the system. Track or road use?
So you are saying you dont cure the mushy pedal but others are happy with the performance of the GT3 MC. Interesting. Differing types of use ?
All good info again chaps - thank you.

To answer your question I'm just information mining on the CR.
I am in the market for one now as a fast road car.
It's unlikely I'll track it as I have a focused dedicated tool for that.
Trying to convert heavy road cars into a track thing is out of my $$$ range anyway.
The size, weight, chassis character and performance, as much as I can tell from reading and chatting to owners seems a compelling road package.
I could'nt care less about huge power as that is irrelevent where I drive.
The suggestion it will move about a bit is music to my ears.
I won't tolerate poor steering as for me that is the most important part of a car.
(I was lucky to drive a mates 620S. The helm was like silk and i knew it in 100 yards of rolling.
However I would be in jail if that car was mine. So powerfull !!!!!!)

Cheers again All.

[boxsey]

Slippydiff said:

Well not everyone clearly ... there's ALWAYS one dissenting voice
Personally speaking I thought it a good mod, sure it may mask what may be an intrinsic problem with the 987 brakes, but it works, and that's all that matters. And when all is said and done, confidence is everything when it comes to brakes, the MC mod definitely instills more confidence in what are mediocre brakes "out of the box".

I think that (as you can see from his follow on post) we need to give up with him. Although he never tracked his CR with standard steel brakes with or without a GT3 MC (987 spyder on ceramics is totally different) he cannot accept the experience of those of us that have actually done it. As the saying goes....I'm oot!

[Porsche911R]

boxsey said:

I think that (as you can see from his follow on post) we need to give up with him. Although he never tracked his CR with standard steel brakes with or without a GT3 MC (987 spyder on ceramics is totally different) he cannot accept the experience of those of us that have actually done it. As the saying goes....I'm oot!

I took you out in Donnington in my Green R on steels, was an annoying day, in fact I went home early as the P zero were just getting battered.

hence why I have always stated GT4 for track R for road, win win.

[Slippydiff]

boxsey said:

I think that (as you can see from his follow on post) we need to give up with him. Although he never tracked his CR with standard steel brakes with or without a GT3 MC (987 spyder on ceramics is totally different) he cannot accept the experience of those of us that have actually done it. As the saying goes....I'm oot!

Wise words Steve.

Lone dissenting voice said:

Also as per you last post, it does not offer a solid pedal feel. it's offers a harder pedal, but that's no firmer or more solid !

Hard, firm, solid ... I suggest you Google "semantics" David
See, I'm being polite to you, it's my New Years Resolution, let's see how long it lasts ay ?

[Slippydiff]

Porsche911R said:

I took you out in Donnington in my Green R on steels

Was that with a GT3 master cylinder fitted ?

[Porsche911R]

Rsx Boy said:

911R - Clearly you are working your brake system harder than others to create air in the system. Track or road use?
So you are saying you dont cure the mushy pedal but others are happy with the performance of the GT3 MC. Interesting. Differing types of use ?
All good info again chaps - thank you.



Cheers again All.

I am pretty much the master on braking on track even if I say so my self :-) one has to blow one's own trumpet, I am not good at much to be fair, but braking in my portfolio of driving skills must be up there at the top of my personal list of things I do well. while others relish in the perfect heal and toe shift, I tend to put it into auto blip mode (GT4 and GT3) after about 30 minutes, esp if hunting down PDK faster cars. Although I found the R to be very easy to heal and toe on steels, my PCCB car is much harder to master that skill set as the pedal again moves less than either of my R's did, the PCCB cars uses a MC which sits in between the oem steel size and the GT3 size. It makes we wonder why no one fits that one.
nothing cures the mushy feel sadly bar frequent re-bleeding , you can improve on it with nice pads, avoiding heat build up. etc etc

The word "performance" you bring up, again a misleading word as the MC offers zero performance gain in any area of the system, I mean ZERO extra performance gain.

ie no cure to heat fade, no cure to the end stop feel, no cure to a firm pedal , ZERO performance gain.

what you gain is a harder pedal to press, not to be confused with a firm pedal, and also much less pedal travel, for me a no no, but that's personal I guess, I am far happier with an extra 1" of travel for modulation and avoiding ABS cut in, a big no no in this car if it cuts in, adding meters to your braking distance or worse still ice mode where it feels nothing happens for a second ! I make all my time up vs faster cars under brakes, even 20+ yards or more, imo threshold braking is at the top of the skills list for hot lapping along with corner entry, the rest of a track is pretty straight forward to drive when you think about it.

I am talking 10th/10th on track of course, my last Cayman R was a 100% a road car in every way I did not change anything bar front camber on it ! although I did plan a big brake upgrade which I still have in box's lol.

the R is a amazing road car, it has 3 flawed areas for fast hot lapping. again why I always say GT4 for track R for road.
1: brakes unless you have upgraded or own a PCCB car.
2: PSM yaw control unit, what a pitter that is ! you can drive round it but ffs there is always 1 corner on every track where it pisses you off.
3: ABS unit, but if you are good on the brakes you can drive round or avoid ABS.

as a road car, you can discount 2 and 3, and 1 can be improved, either just by pads or by bigger disks, or buy going for a 6 pot caliper and 350mm disks all round, like Mr tippers Black R.

[Porsche911R]

Slippydiff said:

boxsey said:

I think that (as you can see from his follow on post) we need to give up with him. Although he never tracked his CR with standard steel brakes with or without a GT3 MC (987 spyder on ceramics is totally different) he cannot accept the experience of those of us that have actually done it. As the saying goes....I'm oot!

Wise words Steve.

Lone dissenting voice said:

Also as per you last post, it does not offer a solid pedal feel. it's offers a harder pedal, but that's no firmer or more solid !

Hard, firm, solid ... I suggest you Google "semantics" David
See, I'm being polite to you, it's my New Years Resolution, let's see how long it lasts ay ?

:-) I hope it continues, but you must see where I am coming from with worlds like firm and hard.

I am not the best with words on paper, and yes if we were talking about a fluffers job, firm and hard would both be the net result.

In the R brake feel vs say a 964, 996 GT3 etc the pedal gives you a firm feel and end point. it's not hard to press really in a 996, but you are reassured it's firm with a nice end point.
The sort of firmness which comes back to you after a good bleeding, mmm that's a nice firm pedal one might say.
when you fit a GT3 MC some one might say that's a bit HARD to press, then sadly it sinks and has zero feel lol but yes it was hard for a few seconds
which while good to a point one needs lasting firmness to perform well. :-)

Any way you know what I really mean , you had an R and looked into the system to improve it, but a lass decided the car was not for you in the end.

[Rsx Boy]

AP's are the cost of a tidy CLIO 200 cup.
A fair percentage of the value the CR
I'd have to be using it on track all day for that expenditure.

[Porsche911R]

Rsx Boy said:

AP's are the cost of a tidy CLIO 200 cup.
A fair percentage of the value the CR
I'd have to be using it on track all day for that expenditure.

hence why there is a tried and tested 2 piece 340mm disk upgrade for these cars, match those with a pad with more bite than oem, GT3 cooling ducts, some good fluid and all's good for £2k

I agree £10k on fitting the same brakes the 911 RSR race cars uses is over kill, but if, it a keeper then what a system.

Tipper fitted cheap upgraded oem size disks and went about trying to upgrade his brakes only to throw them in the bin and go this route in the end.