718 review - test drove today
Discussion
I think there is a very easy conclusion why Porsche moved to F4T - to make more money!
Part of that is to distance itself from the 911. cmoose says this can be done through a power gap - I disagree, or at least I disagree it can be done sufficiently. A well-chosen specification 981 GTS could have come in at <£60k, a solid £20k less than a 911. Emotionally, the way it feels to sit in and drive, it is 95%+ of the 911. No, its not as fast, but for a "handling" car, and for most people looking for a "handling" car, it was perfectly fast enough. A flat-4 will push those people saving 20k into the flat-6 911.
Second is to attract new buyers. For those wanting a "sporty" car (no, they probably don't really know what a sporty car is), the 2.7 981 will feel flat and useless, and they'll rush off and buy a TTS, despite really fancying the Porsche badge. The 718 will win them.
The badge-hunters will flock regardless.
So, they (Porsche) push the bargain-hunter top end Cayster drivers into 911s (more profit), gather a load of buyers who want something that feels quick enough to beat their mates Golf R (more profit), keep some 981 fans who convince themselves they don't care about the engine (no loss), and keep the badge hunters (no loss)
They also loose some 981 buyers who couldn't afford a 911 and do care about the engine (small loss), but I'm confident that the answer to their sum was a positive one in the end...
Part of that is to distance itself from the 911. cmoose says this can be done through a power gap - I disagree, or at least I disagree it can be done sufficiently. A well-chosen specification 981 GTS could have come in at <£60k, a solid £20k less than a 911. Emotionally, the way it feels to sit in and drive, it is 95%+ of the 911. No, its not as fast, but for a "handling" car, and for most people looking for a "handling" car, it was perfectly fast enough. A flat-4 will push those people saving 20k into the flat-6 911.
Second is to attract new buyers. For those wanting a "sporty" car (no, they probably don't really know what a sporty car is), the 2.7 981 will feel flat and useless, and they'll rush off and buy a TTS, despite really fancying the Porsche badge. The 718 will win them.
The badge-hunters will flock regardless.
So, they (Porsche) push the bargain-hunter top end Cayster drivers into 911s (more profit), gather a load of buyers who want something that feels quick enough to beat their mates Golf R (more profit), keep some 981 fans who convince themselves they don't care about the engine (no loss), and keep the badge hunters (no loss)
They also loose some 981 buyers who couldn't afford a 911 and do care about the engine (small loss), but I'm confident that the answer to their sum was a positive one in the end...
RedSwede said:
I think there is a very easy conclusion why Porsche moved to F4T - to make more money!
Part of that is to distance itself from the 911. cmoose says this can be done through a power gap - I disagree, or at least I disagree it can be done sufficiently. A well-chosen specification 981 GTS could have come in at <£60k, a solid £20k less than a 911. Emotionally, the way it feels to sit in and drive, it is 95%+ of the 911. No, its not as fast, but for a "handling" car, and for most people looking for a "handling" car, it was perfectly fast enough. A flat-4 will push those people saving 20k into the flat-6 911.
Second is to attract new buyers. For those wanting a "sporty" car (no, they probably don't really know what a sporty car is), the 2.7 981 will feel flat and useless, and they'll rush off and buy a TTS, despite really fancying the Porsche badge. The 718 will win them.
The badge-hunters will flock regardless.
So, they (Porsche) push the bargain-hunter top end Cayster drivers into 911s (more profit), gather a load of buyers who want something that feels quick enough to beat their mates Golf R (more profit), keep some 981 fans who convince themselves they don't care about the engine (no loss), and keep the badge hunters (no loss)
They also loose some 981 buyers who couldn't afford a 911 and do care about the engine (small loss), but I'm confident that the answer to their sum was a positive one in the end...
I'd agree with pretty much all of that. Porsche can't be happy with the negative press reaction to the 718,but I can't see them wanting to keep seeing reviews saying the 981 was a better car than the 911. That problem will be resolved, I suspect. Part of that is to distance itself from the 911. cmoose says this can be done through a power gap - I disagree, or at least I disagree it can be done sufficiently. A well-chosen specification 981 GTS could have come in at <£60k, a solid £20k less than a 911. Emotionally, the way it feels to sit in and drive, it is 95%+ of the 911. No, its not as fast, but for a "handling" car, and for most people looking for a "handling" car, it was perfectly fast enough. A flat-4 will push those people saving 20k into the flat-6 911.
Second is to attract new buyers. For those wanting a "sporty" car (no, they probably don't really know what a sporty car is), the 2.7 981 will feel flat and useless, and they'll rush off and buy a TTS, despite really fancying the Porsche badge. The 718 will win them.
The badge-hunters will flock regardless.
So, they (Porsche) push the bargain-hunter top end Cayster drivers into 911s (more profit), gather a load of buyers who want something that feels quick enough to beat their mates Golf R (more profit), keep some 981 fans who convince themselves they don't care about the engine (no loss), and keep the badge hunters (no loss)
They also loose some 981 buyers who couldn't afford a 911 and do care about the engine (small loss), but I'm confident that the answer to their sum was a positive one in the end...
bcr5784 said:
I'd agree with pretty much all of that. Porsche can't be happy with the negative press reaction to the 718,but I can't see them wanting to keep seeing reviews saying the 981 was a better car than the 911. That problem will be resolved, I suspect.
I don't think the majority of new buyers care. What else is there at the price that has the all round ability & brand kudos of the Boxster. There are a few options on the fringe life the F type but they aren't really in the same price segment.
In a blind world the one eyed man is king and all that
I've owned various 997/991/981/987/986.
The 981 I had is easily the most fun best handling esp on a track.
My wife just ordered a new car - possibly would have been a 718 but just dont love the engine, its a sort of despite the engine not because of it thing.
She's gone for a 991.2 base Carrera with a manual gearbox, standard 19's and a sensible smattering of options.
The 981 I had is easily the most fun best handling esp on a track.
My wife just ordered a new car - possibly would have been a 718 but just dont love the engine, its a sort of despite the engine not because of it thing.
She's gone for a 991.2 base Carrera with a manual gearbox, standard 19's and a sensible smattering of options.
I don't think we can get any definitive "evidence" one way or the other whether Porsche was happy with the 991:981 ratio. That's what makes these internet discussions so great :-). I don't think production numbers are evidence - if it's 30:20 991:981, we don't have any evidence why Porsche would not prefer 32:18.
I also think the GT4 as a limited volume halo product isn't too relevant - it's job is to keep up press and public attention in the Porsche brand.
To a certain extent it will happen - I would spend 60k on a 981 vs 80k on a 991. But if it was just a couple less holidays, I'd make the stretch to 80k if the alternative was a 982/718. I won't be the only one with that mindset.
I agree the numbers will be small. But I think that will be the case in general with the demographic change for the 718. Might seem like a big shift to us, but in reality it is a subtle repositioning of the car in the marketplace.
I also think the GT4 as a limited volume halo product isn't too relevant - it's job is to keep up press and public attention in the Porsche brand.
To a certain extent it will happen - I would spend 60k on a 981 vs 80k on a 991. But if it was just a couple less holidays, I'd make the stretch to 80k if the alternative was a 982/718. I won't be the only one with that mindset.
I agree the numbers will be small. But I think that will be the case in general with the demographic change for the 718. Might seem like a big shift to us, but in reality it is a subtle repositioning of the car in the marketplace.
Over time the opinion of the press and owners translates into prices Skodas were once the butt of jokes and were sold at bargain prices. Now the prices are much closer to VW equivalents. The penny would eventually have dropped amongst Porsche buyers and prices would have to be more closely aligned.
anonymous said:
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Sales advantage growing convinces me further that Porsche want more 911 sales - it is a higher margin product after all. Ever increasing power in the marketplace dictated that the Cayster power levels increased to stay competitive, and, the top power level from a NA road-oriented F6 was high 400s - so there had to be some bunching up.anonymous said:
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No one went to look at a 911 and bought a new GT4 (well, probably a handful did). Buyers would already have been excellent Porsche customers, probably having owned several 911s. The 987R was a regular model, engine-wise the same even as the Black Edition, and more akin to the 981 GTS (more hardcore, admittedly, but that is more just a reflection of Porsche's shift in general) - anyone could buy one.anonymous said:
[redacted]
They're all valid facts. You argue they support your hypothesis, I argue they support mine.Remember my explicit argument - that some people will now choose a 991.2 over a 982, whereas before those same people would have chosen a 981 over a 991.1. This is supported by opinions expressed on forums across the world. I am not saying that Porsche was "concerned" at the ratio, just that they would be happy to swing it a bit further to the higher-margin 911. You cite facts to say that this had already been happening - so I am predicting that they would want to go a bit further.
On your other point, some people laugh at Caysters and would only buy 911s - absolutely, and I'm not denying the 911 brand is very strong indeed.
The switch to F4T is going to subtly reposition the Cayster and give the 991.2 another selling point over it, that's all I am saying. Not that droves of people were turning down 911s for Caysters, and Porsche needed to panic and do something drastic.
I think I agree with that. Any seller would want to get as a high a proportion of sales as possible for the higher margin product. The difference in margin must be very significant.
As for the 991.2 engine being 'bad', I mean relative to the engine that came before it. Compared to that engine, it sounds bad and is very mundane.
As for the 991.2 engine being 'bad', I mean relative to the engine that came before it. Compared to that engine, it sounds bad and is very mundane.
hornbaek said:
Is it only me or do more people start thinking that a manual Cayman is the more desirable package than the 991. I think the new 718 looks fantastic and as an everyday runaround i think it ticks far more boxes than the slightly boring 991.
All other things being equal, I'd always take a 911 over a Cayster - for the simple fact that I think the 911 is a more interesting and more useable proposition for me. And I say that as someone who until very recently was a BGTS owner.I used to scorn people who would pay say £80K for a base 991 Carrera rather than spend £65K on a fully loaded 981 GTS. The latter are fab cars and I don't regret owning mine for a second. Ultimately though I prefer the rear engine in terms of dynamics and "specialness", and if you have a nipper or 2, the fact that I can use the 911 in situations I simply couldn't the 981 counts for a massive amount. No use having a great car if you can only ever use it on the odd occasion. Obviously other people's situations will be different. As mine was - I bough the car before our little one arrived.
Personally now, if I was going to have a 2 seater sports car in the fleet for the road that would only get used occasionally, it'd be some variety of Lotus and I'd trade practicality for tactility. F4T of the 718s holds zero interest for me as a high days and holidays car.
RedSwede said:
Remember my explicit argument - that some people will now choose a 991.2 over a 982, whereas before those same people would have chosen a 981 over a 991.1. This is supported by opinions expressed on forums across the world. I am not saying that Porsche was "concerned" at the ratio, just that they would be happy to swing it a bit further to the higher-margin 911. You cite facts to say that this had already been happening - so I am predicting that they would want to go a bit further.
The switch to F4T is going to subtly reposition the Cayster and give the 991.2 another selling point over it, that's all I am saying. Not that droves of people were turning down 911s for Caysters, and Porsche needed to panic and do something drastic.
agreed.The switch to F4T is going to subtly reposition the Cayster and give the 991.2 another selling point over it, that's all I am saying. Not that droves of people were turning down 911s for Caysters, and Porsche needed to panic and do something drastic.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree with that 
But I go further to think that the F4T is probably relatively subtle for most people I see in OPCs ordering new 982s. Not for me and you (it has probably sealed the fate of me ever buying a new Porsche again), but 90% of buyers are not on forums and will get all the badge and performance they care about with the 982s.
Anyway, I think we both understand each others point of view but just don't share it
stamp78 said:
Clearly the enthusiast would never touch a 718 because the exhaust note is different/inferior and there is some turbo lag to contend with. Simple, surely..?
What if I'm an enthusiast for four pots and turbo lag.I think you might be confusing the word "enthusiast" with "self-righteous"
Sparkyhd said:
stamp78 said:
Clearly the enthusiast would never touch a 718 because the exhaust note is different/inferior and there is some turbo lag to contend with. Simple, surely..?
What if I'm an enthusiast for four pots and turbo lag.I think you might be confusing the word "enthusiast" with "self-righteous"
How do we qualify as "genuine" enthusiasts or is our copybook blotted now?
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