"Do we look like 4 cylinder guys?"

[Lux]

I agree with most here when saying that the experience is subjective, it is completely down to the driver as to what is preferable to them.

But please can we stop using the age-old statement about turbo lag? The 718's are that well engineered that I would bet the pickup would be better anywhere in the rev range compared to their 981 counterparts. We're not in the age of turbocharged cars only performing above 5,000rpm anymore.

[bcr5784]

Lux said:

I agree with most here when saying that the experience is subjective, it is completely down to the driver as to what is preferable to them.

But please can we stop using the age-old statement about turbo lag? The 718's are that well engineered that I would bet the pickup would be better anywhere in the rev range compared to their 981 counterparts. We're not in the age of turbocharged cars only performing above 5,000rpm anymore.

That simply isn't true. If you trawl through this issue you will find that turbo lag on the 718 has been measured at 2000rpm - by a sceptic - at 2 seconds (I personally did some experiments and thought it dire). It reduces as revs rise it doesn't disappear until over 3000rpm.

Whether that is an issue to you or you (or PDK) drives round it, is a personal choice - but to say it isn't a fact is simply not the case.

Lag is a fundamental issue with all current turbos. It's absolutely true that turbo technology is making it far less of an issue than it once was, and for some low pressure turbos it hardly intrudes - but simply not the case of the 718 which has both a lot of boost and high gearing.

[anonymous-user]

718 will blow any previous Boxster/Cayman into the weeds anywhere, any time.

718 isn't hampered by the low torque of the 6-pots.

[LiamH66]

rockin said:

718 will blow any previous Boxster/Cayman into the weeds anywhere, any time.

718 isn't hampered by the low torque of the 6-pots.

Hmm. Probably, but neither of the 6 cylinder cars is particularly slow, and while the turbo cars have all the clear advantages in the right gear and in a straight line (and probably most of them in the wrong gear and not in a straight line) the 6's throttle response makes them a delight in corners. And they sound and feel nicer.

I'm pretty happy with my choice of the basic 718 Cayman for a DD road car - I think I'll love it. But if I was buying a weekend toy, or was thinking about track days, I'd probably be in a used 6 cylinder car by now, and I couldn't even confidently say whether it would be a 981 or a 987.2. Don't get me wrong, I love the turbo 4s, but to say the 6s have no advantages is missing out on some really key aspects of what's good about them.

Liam

[Maxym]

LiamH66 said:

Hmm. Probably, but neither of the 6 cylinder cars is particularly slow, and while the turbo cars have all the clear advantages in the right gear and in a straight line (and probably most of them in the wrong gear and not in a straight line) the 6's throttle response makes them a delight in corners. And they sound and feel nicer.

I'm pretty happy with my choice of the basic 718 Cayman for a DD road car - I think I'll love it. But if I was buying a weekend toy, or was thinking about track days, I'd probably be in a used 6 cylinder car by now, and I couldn't even confidently say whether it would be a 981 or a 987.2. Don't get me wrong, I love the turbo 4s, but to say the 6s have no advantages is missing out on some really key aspects of what's good about them.

Liam

Sharp observations, sir.

[HighwayStar]

rockin said:

718 will blow any previous Boxster/Cayman into the weeds anywhere, any time.

718 isn't hampered by the low torque of the 6-pots.

I don't think anyone with a 981 would dispute that the 718 is a faster car.
Are you one of those alluded to earlier... Faster = Better?

[sheepysheep]

HighwayStar said:

I don't think anyone with a 981 would dispute that the 718 is a faster car.
Are you one of those alluded to earlier... Faster = Better?

Don't think its just about faster= better. In my opinion at least, the 718 just looks way better and its why i decided to go for it, though obviously the low end torque is much better for city driving. I'm sure to many city buyers, that ability to access the power more frequently is a big plus. To me at least, the back end of the 981 looks dated and ugly, but thats just an opinion, just like people are have strong opinions about the sound.

Clear to me at least that some of you guys just generalize that the only argument is the straight line speed, when its clearly not for many buyers. Having to wring the engine out for it's power may be a great thing with nice open backroads, but it certainly isn't for city buyers of the car who intend to use it as a nice Daily driver, not to mention that some of the little details are far improved in the 718, like the in car entertainment system that looks like something from 10 years back on the 981. Sure, like you guys say, its about how the car emotionally appeals to someone, but to many buyers i'm sure the appeal is not just on the noise that the car makes, but how the car makes you feel as a whole, from looking at it, sitting in it, driving it and more. I for one would never pick the 918 over the 718 or the 911.1 over the 911.2, and thats in a country where the price difference is 100k between a used 981 GTS vs a new 718 To each his own

Edited by sheepysheep on Thursday 9th March 10:08

Edited by sheepysheep on Thursday 9th March 10:09

[ghiblicup]

rockin said:

718 will blow any previous Boxster/Cayman into the weeds anywhere, any time.

718 isn't hampered by the low torque of the 6-pots.

Any dick can drive fast in a straight line. But really, is that much fun after a couple of runs? Plus when does anyone really drag.


The fun starts as soon as you add corners and then I'm afraid it's more about driver skill than the car. I've been humbled by much 'lesser' cars on track days because of the driver not the car. So where does that leave all these stats?

This all about feeling be that throttle response, aural delights or just the fact my daily has 4-pot turbo and I'm damned my special is going to have one...

[HighwayStar]

sheepysheep said:

HighwayStar said:

I don't think anyone with a 981 would dispute that the 718 is a faster car.
Are you one of those alluded to earlier... Faster = Better?

Don't think its just about faster= better. In my opinion at least, the 718 just looks way better and its why i decided to go for it, though obviously the low end torque is much better for city driving. I'm sure to many city buyers, that ability to access the power more frequently is a big plus. To me at least, the back end of the 981 looks dated and ugly, but thats just an opinion, just like people are have strong opinions about the sound.

Clear to me at least that some of you guys just generalize that the only argument is the straight line speed, when its clearly not for many buyers. Having to wring the engine out for it's power may be a great thing with nice open backroads, but it certainly isn't for city buyers of the car who intend to use it as a nice Daily driver, not to mention that some of the little details are far improved in the 718, like the in car entertainment system that looks like something from 10 years back on the 981. Sure, like you guys say, its about how the car emotionally appeals to someone, but to many buyers i'm sure the appeal is not just on the noise that the car makes, but how the car makes you feel as a whole, from looking at it, sitting in it, driving it and more. I for one would never pick the 918 over the 718 or the 911.1 over the 911.2, and thats in a country where the price difference is 100k between a used 981 GTS vs a new 718 To each his own

Edited by sheepysheep on Thursday 9th March 10:08

Edited by sheepysheep on Thursday 9th March 10:09

Totally agree with everything you've just said and of course each to their own... you've made your point very eloquently re the reasons you chose a 718. I would never tell anyone they bought the wrong car, it's their money and their choice to make. City dweller or not, if the preference is the 718 then great.

This...

rockin said:

718 will blow any previous Boxster/Cayman into the weeds anywhere, any time.

718 isn't hampered by the low torque of the 6-pots.

My response was directly to this. Hence my question to rockin, does faster = better?
It was a genuine question, being inquisitive rather than being poised to tell him he's wrong. I have a 981 CS, faster enough for the roads, the right size and I genuinely don't hanker after more speed.
Of course if my numbers came up other options would come into view but for me it wouldn't be the bare numbers, it's the fastest so I'm having it, that would be the deciding factor. If it was, I'd be one waiting for the mythical mk3 TT RS instead of getting my 981.

[JayK12]

Hopefully the next GT4 is a NA motor. 4 pot turbo is just plain boring and not involving or characterful.

[LiamH66]

JayK12 said:

Hopefully the next GT4 is a NA motor. 4 pot turbo is just plain boring and not involving or characterful.

And this is where I fall out with people. Is the 4 pot characterful? In my mind it is, but different from the 6 of course. Distinctive noise and feel, characteristic low speed lag that slowly disappears in the mid range, followed by a mid range torque hit that is smooth yet plentiful, and loads more ultimate power. As for involving, there's so much toque compared to the 6 cylinder cars that I'd have to say the 718, particularly the S, is about the most involving Boxster/Cayman to date. It's the engine that most easily explores the limit of the chassis and tyres, and I felt incredibly involved by that.

I'll defend the 6 cylinder engines against any unfair criticism, but I don't think dissing the turbo 4 makes the 6's seem better. I think a GT4 with a big handful of extra boost into a turbo 4 might be a hoot. An NA version might well find itself a bit slow compared to a lightly tuned 718 S.

Liam

[Romo]

I used to own a 981 CGTS, full spec, I did several testdrives on the 718 both S and non S;

Yes the car is fast, and the looks are as ever fabulous, as is the interoir, but;

-The 4 pot is raw IMHO, it misses the smoothness of the 6F which I did like very much.
-The 4 pot does resonate into the interior, I do not like that at all
-IMHO the PDK worked far more smoother, better with the 6F than the 4F

In a way I do regret the selling of my previous GTS, I think it is the far more better car for driving fun/pleasure than the current 718, although it is not that fast, I do like its characteristics more.

I`m waiting for a next generation GT4, hopefully a NA 6F, If it is a 4 pot I will politely refuse to buy one.

[cay]

sheepysheep said:

Don't think its just about faster= better. In my opinion at least, the 718 just looks way better and its why i decided to go for it, though obviously the low end torque is much better for city driving. I'm sure to many city buyers, that ability to access the power more frequently is a big plus. To me at least, the back end of the 981 looks dated and ugly, but thats just an opinion, just like people are have strong opinions about the sound.

Clear to me at least that some of you guys just generalize that the only argument is the straight line speed, when its clearly not for many buyers. Having to wring the engine out for it's power may be a great thing with nice open backroads, but it certainly isn't for city buyers of the car who intend to use it as a nice Daily driver, not to mention that some of the little details are far improved in the 718, like the in car entertainment system that looks like something from 10 years back on the 981. Sure, like you guys say, its about how the car emotionally appeals to someone, but to many buyers i'm sure the appeal is not just on the noise that the car makes, but how the car makes you feel as a whole, from looking at it, sitting in it, driving it and more. I for one would never pick the 918 over the 718 or the 911.1 over the 911.2, and thats in a country where the price difference is 100k between a used 981 GTS vs a new 718 To each his own

Edited by sheepysheep on Thursday 9th March 10:08

Edited by sheepysheep on Thursday 9th March 10:09

Interesting.

I own neither a 981 or 718, but have driven both many times.

IMHO 981 is MUCH better looking, front of 718 is a disaster.

781 is faster but has horrible lag and sounds dull.

Given the choice 981 GTS everytime, looks fantastic, sounds fantastic and feels special.

Used prices tend to agree.

Absolutely no desire to order a 718.

[sheepysheep]

cay said:

Interesting.

I own neither a 981 or 718, but have driven both many times.

IMHO 981 is MUCH better looking, front of 718 is a disaster.

781 is faster but has horrible lag and sounds dull.

Given the choice 981 GTS everytime, looks fantastic, sounds fantastic and feels special.

Used prices tend to agree.

Absolutely no desire to order a 718.

Yea i guess its a matter of personal preference. a 718s is about 300k usd where i live, whereas a 981 is about 240k usd barely used. I'd take the 718s any day, it looks far more modern to me and that is a huge priority.(Back of a 981 is a disaster to me but hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder if we're paying 300k for a car)

[Tim bo]

sheepysheep said:

Yea i guess its a matter of personal preference. a 718s is about 300k usd where i live, whereas a 981 is about 240k usd barely used. I'd take the 718s any day, it looks far more modern to me and that is a huge priority.(Back of a 981 is a disaster to me but hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder if we're paying 300k for a car)

Indeed, the 718 is so recent there are too few datapoints to make a viable market comparison. Would need to wait a year or so for any analysis to hold water on that front. Regardless, though there are just 8 used 718 Caymans of both base and S variants on the Porsche used car system at present (UK that is...), every single one of those 8 is either around same price or risen in value from new with a like-for-like spec comparison, so early indications are that residuals are looking excellent for the 718.

Don't think the rear of the 981 is a disaster by any stretch, it's unusual, and I've always liked the way the lip dissolves into the light cluster - has always looked a little exotic to me.

Edited by Tim bo on Friday 10th March 05:17

[JayK12]

LiamH66 said:

JayK12 said:

Hopefully the next GT4 is a NA motor. 4 pot turbo is just plain boring and not involving or characterful.

And this is where I fall out with people. Is the 4 pot characterful? In my mind it is, but different from the 6 of course. Distinctive noise and feel, characteristic low speed lag that slowly disappears in the mid range, followed by a mid range torque hit that is smooth yet plentiful, and loads more ultimate power. As for involving, there's so much toque compared to the 6 cylinder cars that I'd have to say the 718, particularly the S, is about the most involving Boxster/Cayman to date. It's the engine that most easily explores the limit of the chassis and tyres, and I felt incredibly involved by that.

I'll defend the 6 cylinder engines against any unfair criticism, but I don't think dissing the turbo 4 makes the 6's seem better. I think a GT4 with a big handful of extra boost into a turbo 4 might be a hoot. An NA version might well find itself a bit slow compared to a lightly tuned 718 S.

Liam

Don't care whats faster or not, what has more power or more torque.............I'm not "dissing", Im just saying straight up that i think the 4 pot turbo is absolute boring smoking turd that should be in a sporty hatchback but in a mid engine sports car....really?

[Tim bo]

JayK12 said:

I'm just saying straight up that i think the 4 pot turbo is absolute boring smoking turd

You're entitled to your opinion. No one is forcing you to buy something you don't like.

JayK12 said:

in a mid engine sports car....really?

Yes, really.

A small, light, mid-engined 2-seater sports car is perfectly suited to the punchy delights of the F4T. In my view, of course. The linearity of NA - the straight line to the red, is fine. But personally I have always preferred the thrill of forced induction, the mid-range shove in the back, the turbine whine. It was the move to FI that finally convinced me to buy a Cayman - had been eyeing up and testing 981 CGTS's previously with a view to purchasing.

The Cayman, in either guise, is a wonderful car on the road. For me I'm just happy that FI is becoming the Porsche mainstay.

And given that, I have recently had two test drives of a 991.2, one in base and one the S variant. The FI delivery in the 991.2 is similar to the 718 (particularly given the same variable-vane tech of the turbine in both S variants), though I found the mid-range shove more noticeable in the 718 S. I suppose the higher displacement of the 991.2 dilutes it somewhat. A thrilling car nonetheless.

I suspect I'll hold on to the 718 for 6 months to a year then move on to a 991.2 for a while. I've discussed this with my OPC to see what he can do along these lines.

Anyhoo, all just my opinion.

Edited by Tim bo on Friday 10th March 09:29

[ooid]

when you are driving a mid-engine 2 seater, dynamics of Flat 6 & Flat 4 is totally different imho. Not talking about noise or lag, purely control and handling of the car, flat 6 is something else. To be honest, nothing would easily beat the dynamics of air-cooled flat 6.

[cypriot]

they should make the next GT4 turbo, but boosted to the sky and back! Make it scary to drive, like the good old days of turbo engines. That would really make an enthusiast want a turbo engine... and definitely characterful!

[Akajak]

next Spyder a 4 then?????