U turn if you want to, Slippy's not for turning .....

[Porsche911R]

Slippydiff said:

^ This.
The standard fit R LSD is the usual Porsche tat (actually it's even worse than the 996/7GT3 item) The Guard item is far superior.

The standard ali doors are a lovely touch, but a massive performance benefit ? Not so much methinks.

And as Jeremy stated, I'm looking for a car £17k cheaper than the R, so realistically I'm looking at £24-25k cars of which there seem to be a reasonable amount with the options I want/need (though there was a 90k mile Gen 2 S up at £17.5 recently) which was tempting, though Basalt black isn't my first choice or a colour.

911V currently have a nice Aqua blue example, whilst Ashgood have a Speed yellow version, but both are too expensive as a base car for my project, but more importantly, neither have Bi-xenons.

Bi Xenons are going to be the issue as I stated seems a rare option.

17k cheaper , my mistake, but selling seats etc drops the change and also not having to buy some wheels as the Spyders are quite light, going to 18" you loose out on tyre choice and while an 18" rim might be better, the trend for bigger wheels mean tyres are not as common in 18" where you have a nice choice in 19". Also trick shocks will offset a 19" ride.
I am sure you could even sell the buckets for £5k to a comfort GT3 owner or buyer as comfort cars are more than £5k less than cars with buckets, so one might get a great deal o na GT3 then buy your factory buckets for it.

I still think the R looks great with it's aero kit, (disliked by many though) but the front splitters are nice and it does reduce lift.

Also red with black details and xenons will be a hard act to follow and owning 1 one only 100 manual UK cars must appeal a bit ?

[HokumPokum]

so pdk or manual?

Are you tracking it? The only reason for gen 2 imo would be the PDK box.

[Slippydiff]

HokumPokum said:

so pdk or manual?

Are you tracking it? The only reason for gen 2 imo would be the PDK box.

No plans to track it, so it'll be a manual.

The purchase of the R was always going to be on the basis it was an extended road test, as by David's own admission driving a car for an hour, an afternoon or some would say a week, often isn't enough to establish its true credentials.
Out of the box the R is good, but the more I've driven it the more I've found it's foibles and shortcomings.

I fully understand your view that the suspension "limits" your speed to 80mph on the bumpier stuff, and I also get that being so "limited" with the new and somewhat punitive guidelines for speeding fines makes a lot of sense, but for me honing the car's suspension to work on such roads above those speeds is were the fun really starts, and combining that high speed bumpy road ability with a better quality ride on all our hopeless road surfaces at all speeds, is the icing on the cake.

Chucking R PCCB uprights, six pots and Giro discs would no doubt sort the brake issues, but by the time you've addressed upgrading the rears too, you'll be staring down the barrel of £5k. I think what I'm proposing with bigger discs whilst utilising the standard calipers, will be lighter, just as efficient, whilst being far cheaper, and leaving sufficient funds to experiment with GT2/3 servos to further improve the brake feel.

Fitting the contents of the Tarrett/Elephant Racing/RSS catalogues isn't entirely necessary, as the car won't see track use, so they'll be no need to have the ability to crank 3.5 degrees camber on the front end, but having full adjustability combined with accurately located suspension components IS important. And whilst there are spherical bearing kits for the inner coffin arm bushes, and the same for the castor pucks, it makes sense to chuck the standard non-adjustable stuff out and fit the likes of the RSS/Elephant or Tarrett items.

Until recently I'd thought that fitting the full RSS kit would make for a horrible, noisy/clanky road car, but having experienced a Mk 1 996 GT3 fitted with every possible suspension link upgrade, I now know that's not the case.

The seat position is an irritation. All the more so after driving a mate's Gen 1 car a couple of weeks ago. It's fitted with the full on armchairs, but the driving position is waaaaay better than that provided by the GT2 folding buckets, as you can get the seat base so much lower. By your admission the R folding buckets are mounted way too high, I was shocked how much better the armchairs were from a position perspective (though clearly they're nothing like as supportive.

Much as the 18" wheels are probably the better option "dynamically", I'd want to run lightweight 19's as I think they look better in the 987 wheel arches. And as you've said, there's a better choice of modern tyres for 19" wheels. A mate is currently struggling to find decent (for which read modern) 18" tyres in 225 and 285 sizes for his Mk1 996 GT3. Cups 2's are the only modern tyres available, but clearly have their limitations in UK weather.

In some ways I'd like to keep the R (personally I like the aerokit), but what I have planned can be done to a considerably cheaper base car and the end product will (I hope) be a far, far better car, better suited to my specific needs, albeit one with less "investment" potential. But in all honesty I've never really bought the cars to make money (if I had, the 964 RS's/993 RS/996 GT3 RS and 996 GT2's would have stayed) but rather just to enjoy driving them, and a well modified Gen 2 will give me a better, more focused drive for far less than the equivalent modified R.

[Porsche911R]

I look forward to the project, I love projects and if you can fix the brakes on the 4 pots it would be amazing as the USA boys have tried and tried.

Saying that I have zero brake issues with the PCCB bits on the Spyder and the brakes are amazing, one of the best things about the car.
again every car seems different !

I have driven Old bobs car which is now in another members hands here, might be worth a drive in that car brake wise see if you like that option of just the Gyro 340MM disks upgrade, My self I would go for the 996 GT3 calipers, NOT the gt3 MC , but the inbetween one for the PCCB system, a new brake booster as there seems to be a lot of parts numbers for that, on Brembo 350mm 2 piece disks. And If I felt rich Endless mx72 plus pads.

Guard diff, as noted.
OZ wheels or oem Spyers on a Black ed car if you can find one.
shocks are personal choice, Ohlins, KW, I have always wanted to try JRZ myself.
Cargraphic complete exhaust with Cobb tune for about 370BHp.
Recaro Poles the Carbon ones ;-) with BBI recaro mounting hardware.
Braile battery.
Cup, or RSS LCA and toe links.
the R rear ARB.
Fix cables so you don't have a repeat issue.
Some sort of short shift
few other trinkets

I did have a build sheet once, just looked and it , comes to £32k ( inc 5k on brakes)on a base car of 25k so £57k all in ,a bit pricey now I see why I have not done it !

but still cheaper than buying a 2010 gen 2 997 I guess.

I spent about £8k on the Spyder but it already had the PCCB set up, and light wheels, runs about 350BHP and 1250kg,
next would be shocks if I did anything, then I could get the weight lower as 1250kg is the limit on oem sus I think.

[Slippydiff]

Porsche911R said:

I look forward to the project, I love projects and if you can fix the brakes on the 4 pots it would be amazing as the USA boys have tried and tried.

Saying that I have zero brake issues with the PCCB bits on the Spyder and the brakes are amazing, one of the best things about the car.
again every car seems different !

I have driven Old bobs car which is now in another members hands here, might be worth a drive in that car brake wise see if you like that option of just the Gyro 340MM disks upgrade, My self I would go for the 996 GT3 calipers, NOT the gt3 MC , but the inbetween one for the PCCB system, a new brake booster as there seems to be a lot of parts numbers for that, on Brembo 350mm 2 piece disks. And If I felt rich Endless mx72 plus pads.

Guard diff, as noted.
OZ wheels or oem Spyers on a Black ed car if you can find one.
shocks are personal choice, Ohlins, KW, I have always wanted to try JRZ myself.
Cargraphic complete exhaust with Cobb tune for about 370BHp.
Recaro Poles the Carbon ones ;-) with BBI recaro mounting hardware.
Braile battery.
Cup, or RSS LCA and toe links.
the R rear ARB.
Fix cables so you don't have a repeat issue.
Some sort of short shift
few other trinkets

I did have a build sheet once, just looked and it , comes to £32k ( inc 5k on brakes)on a base car of 25k so £57k all in ,a bit pricey now I see why I have not done it !

but still cheaper than buying a 2010 gen 2 997 I guess.

I spent about £8k on the Spyder but it already had the PCCB set up, and light wheels, runs about 350BHP and 1250kg,
next would be shocks if I did anything, then I could get the weight lower as 1250kg is the limit on oem sus I think.

Broad brush that's where I'm at, but you've got £4k's worth of carbon PP's in there that rather defeats the object of trying to cost save As do the Endless pads ! ! The BBi kit is nice, but pricey, but I wouldn't want sliders and I'm pretty sure you have to buy the whole kit as they won't supply the floor adaptors without all the other kit. Having done my own mounts for the Sparcos in the 1M, I'd do the same with the Cayman, and there's other companies out there that do decent (and cheaper floor) adaptors for the Cayman which could be adapted nicely.

The brakes are an interesting one. I'm mystified as to why some cars have more solid pedals than others, but also your comments about air being present in the system even after bleeding. which tends to indicate there's an issue with the pipe runs or air getting trapped in the calipers themselves.
Those that fitted the Brembo caliper/disc upgrades say it solves the poor pedal problem. Period. Which makes me wonder if the calipers are flexing and there's some pad knockoff happening. Either way the floating discs should help the issue. But I'd want my brake spend to be way less than £5K.

The GT3 calipers are hugely expensive, a set came up on 911uk last week, but they were £1200 iirc, add in the uprights/bearings, discs and the huge pads, and you're looking at a sizeable bill, and as I said, add in a rear disc upgrade too and you'll be looking at close to £5k all in.

If my intended large diameter disc/spacer/standard caliper conversion doesn't work, it won't have cost a lot and I'll go with the PCCB/997 S uprights, big discs and the Mk1 996 GT3/997 S 4 pot route (the pads are at least 20-25% bigger)

997 GT3 RS short shift, Numeric cables.

Exhaust, Jens like the MM system he has made for him, and it's is cheaper than the Cargraphic system (though the CG long tube manifolds do look good) I like the fact the MM system looks like it utilises the OE silencer pressings.

Braille battery ? Is it up to starting a car that's been left for weeks without a conditioner on it ?

The H&R (or Eibach) ARB kits seem to get good reviews and would give some adjustability too,

I've got contacts at Ohlins and obviously have previous experience with their agents having had to build the 3 way adjustables for the GT3 on three occasions..... Call me blinkered, but I wouldn't choose/use anything else.

All the above will be done in stages, so the complete project could, and most likely will be undertaken over a 2-3 year timespan.
As long as it comes in at least £25k beneath a GT4, I'll be a happy bunny.

[TheRocket]

Just curious on the ARB's, as not something I've ever changed on car but going stiffer for the road I realise it means less roll and more ultimate grip but isn't the trade off less suspension compliance so ride and wet weather handling will suffer ? When I put the Ohlins R+T on they will be substantially stiffer springs than factory set up so won't this also help negate some body roll on stock ARB's or am I missing something here ? Also assume if ARB's are stiffer the factory drop links have to be changed too as they look quite flimsy.

Also ref the brakes, it's odd they are not up to the job imo. I changed my rear discs and put in the EBC pads all round yesterday and couldn't help thinking with decent cooling and braided lines they looked like they should be more than up to the task for fast road driving, especially when compared to BMW's offerings from the same period on their M cars.

[Porsche911R]

TheRocket said:

Just curious on the ARB's, as not something I've ever changed on car but going stiffer for the road I realise it means less roll and more ultimate grip but isn't the trade off less suspension compliance so ride and wet weather handling will suffer ? When I put the Ohlins R+T on they will be substantially stiffer springs than factory set up so won't this also help negate some body roll on stock ARB's or am I missing something here ? Also assume if ARB's are stiffer the factory drop links have to be changed too as they look quite flimsy.

Also ref the brakes, it's odd they are not up to the job imo. I changed my rear discs and put in the EBC pads all round yesterday and couldn't help thinking with decent cooling and braided lines they looked like they should be more than up to the task for fast road driving, especially when compared to BMW's offerings from the same period on their M cars.

the R had a slightly stiffer rear ARB which does help rotation.

Stiffer does reduce grip at the end you make stiffer, unless it's not stiff enough in the 1st place.
Roll kills camber as an example 1.5 degree of roll on the GT4 which rolls too much kills that -2.5 degree of camber you paid for !!
hence why the DSC module is gaining a following on the GT4 platform as it reduces roll and dive and as the GT4 can wear tyres which cost £1.2k a set a DSC module will save you money in the long run on tyres.

Go too stiff like full stiff on a GT3 adjustable front ARB which people fit to 987's and yes any bump you hit will transfer to the other wheel, making the steering unplesent and the car jiggles.

I would stay stock ARB if you have bump and rebound adjustment on shocks and see what happens.

Brakes are upto the job, I have done 30k+ miles on Cayman brakes as have 100's thousands of people. but they could be better.
I would not touch a EBC pad though myself.

GT3 front air ducts and a nice pads is fine for road use, I just tend to find they need bleeding often.

[HokumPokum]

composite rear hatch. Saves quite a bit of weight up high + investigation into sound deadening removal.

I do think that you do not need upgraded calipers if you are not tracking. better pads, better lines and an upgraded master cylinder should give you a hard enough pedal. on the shifter, I can't remember but there is another brand that is highly recommended but they all work best on cup cables.

Also think good shocks are all you need. monoballs are good except when they become stuck then the noise is unbearable.....

I wouldn't overdo it, caymans are such great cars out of the box.

[Porsche911R]

HokumPokum said:

composite rear hatch. Saves quite a bit of weight up high + investigation into sound deadening removal.

I do think that you do not need upgraded calipers if you are not tracking. better pads, better lines and an upgraded master cylinder should give you a hard enough pedal. on the shifter, I can't remember but there is another brand that is highly recommended but they all work best on cup cables.

Also think good shocks are all you need. monoballs are good except when they become stuck then the noise is unbearable.....

I wouldn't overdo it, caymans are such great cars out of the box.

braking in my Spyder is at P1 performance, I even feel on stock pads my GT4 feels less good, I keep meaning to fit a better pad in the GT4 but the size means massive £££

mono ball rear toe links stops rear steer if under brakes, on a car which has good brakes the rear oem bushing move and you get a rear steer effect in a straight line.

LCA have a net effect of increasing front track, the 981 had more front track to give a nicer turn in over the 987, LCA allow for not only adjustment but I ended up with 28m more front track, that's a really nice net effect as the only way to get that is fit heavy spacers and longer bolts, def not as nice.

a MC will not give you a hard pedal end point, but that's long been done to death.

[boxsey]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

+1 and Slippy has already found this too on his R.

[Slippydiff]

HokumPokum said:

composite rear hatch. Saves quite a bit of weight up high + investigation into sound deadening removal.

I do think that you do not need upgraded calipers if you are not tracking. better pads, better lines and an upgraded master cylinder should give you a hard enough pedal. on the shifter, I can't remember but there is another brand that is highly recommended but they all work best on cup cables.

Also think good shocks are all you need. monoballs are good except when they become stuck then the noise is unbearable.....

I wouldn't overdo it, caymans are such great cars out of the box.

The bottom line is, there's a huge amount of truth in this statement but..... it doesn't stop me wanting to make something truly special out of what is a clearly a very good product straight out of the box.

Whilst I loved my time behind the wheel of the various 964/993 RS's and GT3's and 2's, my favorite car was "my" Manthey'ed Mk1 996 GT3.
When I bought it, it had six pots, shot Alcons, shot RS29's, Cup 1's, Manthey V3 KW's, billet gear shift and the Manthey K400 engine upgrade.

That package was pretty close to all you needed for a fast road car, but the addition of Cup rear toe links, the Ohlins 3 way adjustable dampers, new Alcons front and rear and some other small tweeks turned it into something genuinely special, but also something that suited my driving style in a very personal way.

In the last ten years I can't think of any car I've owned that made me want to drive it all through the night just for the sheer enjoyment of doing so, yet that's precisely what I did with the Manthey GT3. Thundering through villages at "naughty" speeds at 4am in the morning with the windows down :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3J8HeIfJwc

and the sun just rising, is something that will stay with me forever. By 6am I was completely knackered and had to stop for a brief nap

I finally got home at midday, the car looking very battle weary and plastered in dead flies etc.
Do I feel sufficiently motivated to do an all-nighter in the Cayman R as it is ? The blunt answer is no, I wouldn't. But suitably modded and given a harder edge, I think I most definitely would

[boxsey]

Porsche911R said:

I put money on a re-bleed finding air in the system !

It's no easier or harder to modulate and in fact I think having less travel makes it harder to avoid ice mode on the 987.2 cars.
does it improve the pedal feel, that's subjective, it only makes it harder to press, is this feel ? not really !!

what does happen is people do a complete refresh of the system and ABS and MC when fitting,(most also fit better pads at the same time) this alone makes the harder end point, but then people put it down to the MC and not the complete re-bleed and flush of the fluid on the whole system and race spec pads !
A full re-bleed on every thing improves feel.

I know you like less travel and you like a harder pedal to press, but lets got get over excited, it has nothing to do with the end point or really feel ;-) it's a fluid mover and makes the pedal harder to press.

D, you really do need to stop telling us that the MC makes no difference to the feel. And you know I am saying this in a friendly way. With new discs, RS29s and new fluid (I know how to bleed it properly), the pedal was just too long within a couple of hot laps. It felt like I was burying my foot into the carpet on the big stops. I should be doing that with the throttle pedal, not the brake pedal! Horrible and scary at times feeling. The bigger MC has completely changed the feel. Everyone else that tracks their R and has fitted the bigger MC says the same. Kevin will be changing his soon too but because despite new discs, pads and fluid at our last Oulton day he twice had to take to the escape road (at the bottom of hill top) because he lost confidence in the brakes.

[BubblesNW]

boxsey said:

Porsche911R said:

I put money on a re-bleed finding air in the system !

It's no easier or harder to modulate and in fact I think having less travel makes it harder to avoid ice mode on the 987.2 cars.
does it improve the pedal feel, that's subjective, it only makes it harder to press, is this feel ? not really !!

what does happen is people do a complete refresh of the system and ABS and MC when fitting,(most also fit better pads at the same time) this alone makes the harder end point, but then people put it down to the MC and not the complete re-bleed and flush of the fluid on the whole system and race spec pads !
A full re-bleed on every thing improves feel.

I know you like less travel and you like a harder pedal to press, but lets got get over excited, it has nothing to do with the end point or really feel ;-) it's a fluid mover and makes the pedal harder to press.

D, you really do need to stop telling us that the MC makes no difference to the feel. And you know I am saying this in a friendly way. With new discs, RS29s and new fluid (I know how to bleed it properly), the pedal was just too long within a couple of hot laps. It felt like I was burying my foot into the carpet on the big stops. I should be doing that with the throttle pedal, not the brake pedal! Horrible and scary at times feeling. The bigger MC has completely changed the feel. Everyone else that tracks their R and has fitted the bigger MC says the same. Kevin will be changing his soon too but because despite new discs, pads and fluid at our last Oulton day he twice had to take to the escape road (at the bottom of hill top) because he lost confidence in the brakes.

Steve, you're probably wishing that David sells his R and spends his time elsewhere....as many GT4 owners are also hoping for the same. I fear we may have more luck than you

You should also know by now that he is never wrong (despite being proven wrong on many occasions) and has never put his GT4 for sale (despite being shown his own quote which confirmed it) so we should just accept him and his "unique" qualities and carry on regardless...

I'm sure he would be more than welcome in the Lotus or M car sections of PH.

[bcr5784]

BubblesNW said:

You should also know by now that he is never wrong (despite being proven wrong on many occasions)

Unfortunately his nemessis is also never wrong - and in this instance both are. A bigger master cylinder WILL make the brakes heavier and travel shorter (good - it will make heel and toe changes easiers). It won't affect real feel, though it may well be easier to modulate brake pressure because pressures are higher at the brake pedal. In fact it may (ever so slightly) detract from brake feel if the pedal box (etc) flexes more because of the higher pressures at the brake pedal.

[bcr5784]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It can't - it can only make it easier to modulate because of the higher pressures. You may think that improves feel, but in reality only a change in rigidity of the pedal box mechanism, a change in hoses (or obviously a change in the brakes themselves) can actually do that. Lots of people convince themselves about lots of things about cars which are technically/physically unsupportable.

[bcr5784]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

There is no technical reason why it can! It's a similar situation between right and left foot braking. There is obviously no ACTUAL difference between the feel of a braking system regardless of whether you use your right or your left foot (it's the same system!), but most people will find it more difficult to be smooth if they use their left foot - because their left foot is not "tuned" to be so sensitive. It's exactly the same situation with light brakes - your "personal" system needs to be able to detect the effect of smaller (actual but not percentage) changes in pressure. Many will regard this a difference as the "feel" of the brakes - when actually is a difference in their ability to modulate the pressure on the pedal.

The only way to really improve feel is to remove "sponge" from the system

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 13th June 00:10

[RaysCayman]

Porsche911R said:

Stiffer does reduce grip at the end you make stiffer, unless it's not stiff enough in the 1st place.
Roll kills camber as an example 1.5 degree of roll on the GT4 which rolls too much kills that -2.5 degree of camber you paid for !!
hence why the DSC module is gaining a following on the GT4 platform as it reduces roll and dive and as the GT4 can wear tyres which cost £1.2k a set a DSC module will save you money in the long run on tyres.

You really should leave the suspension posts alone, it's very clear to all of us who have a modicum of understanding that you're blathering on with no understanding what-so-ever.

[BubblesNW]

Porsche911R said:

BubblesNW said:

Steve, you're probably wishing that David sells his R and spends his time elsewhere....as many GT4 owners are also hoping for the same. I fear we may have more luck than you

You should also know by now that he is never wrong (despite being proven wrong on many occasions) and has never put his GT4 for sale (despite being shown his own quote which confirmed it) so we should just accept him and his "unique" qualities and carry on regardless...

I'm sure he would be more than welcome in the Lotus or M car sections of PH.

you are crazy !! why tell a load of lies lol

David, we both know it's the truth and I don't take kindly to being accused of being a liar. If I need to trawl through my old posts to find the quote where you said "my GT4 is for sale" then I suppose I will. You appear to have a selective memory. Face to face you come across as a mild mannered chap. Behind a keyboard you are a T**T.

[CarreraLightweightRacing]

Don't know how I didn't notice this thread earlier and to bring this thread back from behind the bike sheds.
Great to read that H is actually taking on a project of this nature; it restores faith that there are people out there buying into this brand for the right reasons
I'll support you all the way Henry and wish you all the best in achieving exactly what YOU want from this project.
Defying convention and known norms doesn't always lead to disaster; sometimes, just sometimes, being brave and trying something different maketh the man car. I like your thinking and using such a great base car should yield a return to the sleepless nights you so desire

[Rocket.]

Slippy thanks for your email heads up, I replied . Seems Ohlins are making a bit of a mess of their R+T product for 987, they neglected to tell their suppliers that the price does not include springs, so mine arrived at GC without them... Also seems some other issues with spring platforms too, so not just Bilstein and Eibach who couldnt give a monkeys about customers!