Went to PEC today - my thoughts on their GT4 vs my CGTS...
Discussion
Lovely day for it today after the constant rain earlier in the week - it always seems to be good when I go there 
I took out their GT4 for a 90 minute session - it's yellow with Clubsport spec and PCCBs. I've been looking forward to trying out a GT4 to compare to my CGTS so here are my concise thoughts:
Seats - the LWBs are nice, less vertical than I thought they'd be. No more hugging than my SSPs (which I set more upright) other than in the thigh area. I'd spec them every time if they were available on my chosen model.
Engines - the 3.8 has a touch more power and torque obviously, and due to the lesser sound deadening it feels rougher. My 3.4 feels sweeter and smoother, plus I missed the GTS burbles that the GT4 doesn't have. Gear shift was rougher too, but the car has had a hard life so I'll assume they're usually the same. It's not a special engine in any way, just a perfectly functional one.
Brakes - PCCBs are very good as I expected, a bit more initial bite than steels. Overall performance felt no better to me than steels.
Steering feel - the GT4 felt heavier and firmer, nicely weighty. No better to me than my CGTS feels, it's just different.
Handling - superb grip, you can really throw the car about and the limit is high. The lower CoG can be felt and it's obviously going to make a better track car than a CGTS. On the road you cannot exploit the ability the car has unless you risk life and limb, plus a jail term.
So, overall verdict and all my personal opinion of course - and yes, I'm expecting to get flamed for it
1. PCCBs are not worth the cost unless you have enough money so that the cost to you to buy and replace them is irrelevant. For me, who isn't wealthy, they're not worth the risk of the replacement cost if they get damaged.
2. If you already have a GTS, a GT4 is only worth having if you do a lot of track work. As you cannot drive it like I did today on the road all the time (i.e. full bore, on it 100%) you do not get the benefit of its additional abilities. The GTS feels more refined and to me that's more impressive, especially when at road speeds you get very similar handling traits.
As a final footnote, Mrs Twinfan was there observing and her comment from the viewing balcony afterwards was:
"I could hear you in the GT4 on the far side of the track over the 718 models right in front of me. They sound like they're in the wrong gear all the time or that their engine is broken."
I took out their GT4 for a 90 minute session - it's yellow with Clubsport spec and PCCBs. I've been looking forward to trying out a GT4 to compare to my CGTS so here are my concise thoughts:Seats - the LWBs are nice, less vertical than I thought they'd be. No more hugging than my SSPs (which I set more upright) other than in the thigh area. I'd spec them every time if they were available on my chosen model.
Engines - the 3.8 has a touch more power and torque obviously, and due to the lesser sound deadening it feels rougher. My 3.4 feels sweeter and smoother, plus I missed the GTS burbles that the GT4 doesn't have. Gear shift was rougher too, but the car has had a hard life so I'll assume they're usually the same. It's not a special engine in any way, just a perfectly functional one.
Brakes - PCCBs are very good as I expected, a bit more initial bite than steels. Overall performance felt no better to me than steels.
Steering feel - the GT4 felt heavier and firmer, nicely weighty. No better to me than my CGTS feels, it's just different.
Handling - superb grip, you can really throw the car about and the limit is high. The lower CoG can be felt and it's obviously going to make a better track car than a CGTS. On the road you cannot exploit the ability the car has unless you risk life and limb, plus a jail term.
So, overall verdict and all my personal opinion of course - and yes, I'm expecting to get flamed for it
1. PCCBs are not worth the cost unless you have enough money so that the cost to you to buy and replace them is irrelevant. For me, who isn't wealthy, they're not worth the risk of the replacement cost if they get damaged.
2. If you already have a GTS, a GT4 is only worth having if you do a lot of track work. As you cannot drive it like I did today on the road all the time (i.e. full bore, on it 100%) you do not get the benefit of its additional abilities. The GTS feels more refined and to me that's more impressive, especially when at road speeds you get very similar handling traits.
As a final footnote, Mrs Twinfan was there observing and her comment from the viewing balcony afterwards was:
"I could hear you in the GT4 on the far side of the track over the 718 models right in front of me. They sound like they're in the wrong gear all the time or that their engine is broken."
Nice comparison.
I used to own a CGTS, PCCB, PDK, PVT, SCP, the whole drivers package I would say. And how brilliant the car, engine, the PDK shifts, chassis, brakes, in- and exterior wise the car was; the steering was bad IMHO, it was slow on initial steering input, by more steering adjustment the steering came in to hard,. It also had far too much self centering force, the steer wants to go the middle, so steering at fas t speeds and cornering did cost to much force IMO. To much force is less feeling.
The kind the car steered impressed to me like "torque steer" as a FWD car, no kidding!
Than I was given the opportunity to testdrive a GT4; how much beter the steering!! Thanks to the 10% faster steering rack, initial steering input was so much better, so much more alive, so much more go-kart feeling! Thats the way I wanted the steering!! Porsche must have known the 981 series lacked initial steering input, given the 718 series have now the same 10% faster steering rack as the GT4 !!
Further more, the steering itself did cost less effort, less force as the self centering force was far less than the CGTS. So al in al IMO the GT4 steering outperforms the CGTS by quite a margin.
The 718GT4 is on my radar, I can tell you :-)
I used to own a CGTS, PCCB, PDK, PVT, SCP, the whole drivers package I would say. And how brilliant the car, engine, the PDK shifts, chassis, brakes, in- and exterior wise the car was; the steering was bad IMHO, it was slow on initial steering input, by more steering adjustment the steering came in to hard,. It also had far too much self centering force, the steer wants to go the middle, so steering at fas t speeds and cornering did cost to much force IMO. To much force is less feeling.
The kind the car steered impressed to me like "torque steer" as a FWD car, no kidding!
Than I was given the opportunity to testdrive a GT4; how much beter the steering!! Thanks to the 10% faster steering rack, initial steering input was so much better, so much more alive, so much more go-kart feeling! Thats the way I wanted the steering!! Porsche must have known the 981 series lacked initial steering input, given the 718 series have now the same 10% faster steering rack as the GT4 !!
Further more, the steering itself did cost less effort, less force as the self centering force was far less than the CGTS. So al in al IMO the GT4 steering outperforms the CGTS by quite a margin.
The 718GT4 is on my radar, I can tell you :-)
Edited by Romo on Thursday 10th August 19:46
It goes to show how different folks perceive the same things doesn't it! My car has recently had a geometry setup which has reduced understeer and the stock 981 rack is fine for me. I don't know how different the 991 GT3 rack fitted to the GT4 is to it.
Larger wheels and tyres on the GT4 will also affect things.
Larger wheels and tyres on the GT4 will also affect things.
This is going to be interesting given you weren't slobbering over the car as you were supposed to.....
but more seriously, I don't think the PEC track shows the gt4 at it's best to be honest. to really appreciate the car's capablities over another 981 you probably need to go next door to the GP track. I'd agree with you the gt4 isn't particular special on the road (and as well about the engine). the car is very capable on track though.
isaldiri said:
This is going to be interesting given you weren't slobbering over the car as you were supposed to.....
but more seriously, I don't think the PEC track shows the gt4 at it's best to be honest. to really appreciate the car's capablities over another 981 you probably need to go next door to the GP track. I'd agree with you the gt4 isn't particular special on the road (and as well about the engine). the car is very capable on track though.
RSVP911 you've bought the wrong f*cking car ...... ! ! ! ! 
If you had mentioned wanting a more refined car, we could have saved you the trouble; of course the CGTS is going to win that battle; the GT4 is raw, more suited to the track, but equally as compliant on the road (much more presence on the road). You could argue that any car with more than 180bhp is wasted on UK roads, but that doesn't stop us
Shame you weren't more impressed with the GT4, as it likely means you'll continue to talk it down on the GT4 price thread
Shame you weren't more impressed with the GT4, as it likely means you'll continue to talk it down on the GT4 price thread
Very useful Twinfan; thank you. I've been wondering whether I should really exchange my Cayman GTS with its mere 340 hp and weedy brakes for the GT4 experience... though I have acknowledged to myself that the GTS meets my 'special occasion' motoring needs very well - and I'm not into track days. From what you say it sounds as though the GTS is an ideal package for me and that I can live without the GT4.
Perhaps I'm more of a 981 Boxster Spyder man. Aw hell...
Perhaps I'm more of a 981 Boxster Spyder man. Aw hell...
Surely the GT4s at PEC must have racked up a lot of hard track miles by now.
Both my daughter (18) and son (20), spent a whole day in the PEC GT4, last August, - on the limit the whole time. They are normally fairly dismissive of road cars, but had a wonderful time, and both described it as the best fun you can have in a refined road car 'on track' (although they haven't yet driven the new GT3).
Few people select pccbs for the additional performance. The greater benefits are in the unsprung weight saving, longevity in road use, no corrosion and no brake dust.
Both my daughter (18) and son (20), spent a whole day in the PEC GT4, last August, - on the limit the whole time. They are normally fairly dismissive of road cars, but had a wonderful time, and both described it as the best fun you can have in a refined road car 'on track' (although they haven't yet driven the new GT3).
Few people select pccbs for the additional performance. The greater benefits are in the unsprung weight saving, longevity in road use, no corrosion and no brake dust.
Geneve said:
Surely the GT4s at PEC must have racked up a lot of hard track miles by now.
Both my daughter (18) and son (20), spent a whole day in the PEC GT4, last August, - on the limit the whole time.
very hard to be on the limit at pec let alone all the time :-) prob at 70% and most surfaces are low friction or water lolBoth my daughter (18) and son (20), spent a whole day in the PEC GT4, last August, - on the limit the whole time.
nudgerwilliams said:
Mrs Twinfan sounds like a very astutue observer of cars. Did she get any seat time in the GT4 or did you keep it all to yourself?
Just me yesterday. She had my free half day in a CGTS last year though as I had already tried out a CGTS there before buying md_ian said:
If you had mentioned wanting a more refined car, we could have saved you the trouble; of course the CGTS is going to win that battle; the GT4 is raw, more suited to the track, but equally as compliant on the road (much more presence on the road). You could argue that any car with more than 180bhp is wasted on UK roads, but that doesn't stop us
Shame you weren't more impressed with the GT4, as it likely means you'll continue to talk it down on the GT4 price thread
I don't think you understood the purpose of my visit and post. I didn't say I wanted something more refined, it's what I observed and found more impressive as a piece of engineering. Anyone can make a car feel more raw by lowering it and taking lots of sound deadening out!Shame you weren't more impressed with the GT4, as it likely means you'll continue to talk it down on the GT4 price thread
Also it was about whether I thought it would be "better" than my CGTS as a road car. In my opinion it's not. The CGTS, with PASM and all the toys, does not lose out in any way at road speeds IMHO. It goes to show just how great the non-GT car is in either base, S or GTS guise.
Like I said, unless I was to go on track regularly the GT4 is not worth the extra money to me. You can get most of the experience from a non-GT version and the car did not feel special enough to justify its inflated price tag as a sunny Sunday toy.
Twinfan said:
I don't think you understood the purpose of my visit and post. I didn't say I wanted something more refined, it's what I observed and found more impressive as a piece of engineering. Anyone can make a car feel more raw by lowering it and taking lots of sound deadening out!
No worries, I just read "The GTS feels more refined and to me that's more impressive" as pointing out you prefer re-fineness over other points, where the GTS was always going to be 'the winner'. Both great cars, just a case of whether £20k more makes it special enough to justify the difference, I think it is, others don't, which is great for Porsche and drivers alike.md_ian said:
No worries, I just read "The GTS feels more refined and to me that's more impressive" as pointing out you prefer re-fineness over other points, where the GTS was always going to be 'the winner'. Both great cars, just a case of whether £20k more makes it special enough to justify the difference, I think it is, others don't, which is great for Porsche and drivers alike.
Indeed! You definitely can't make a bad choice with a 981 Cayman For me though, if I wanted something more "special" than my GTS it would have to be a GT3. The GT4 just isn't enough of a step up.
I can understand "refinement", I also had the PASM (I forgot to mention in my previous post), and really, the road compliance with PASM and 20" CC was just fantastic, remarkable and second to non.
As I stated before, my current M2 is a Western Stage Coach on wooden wheels in comparison to the CGTS :-)
As I stated before, my current M2 is a Western Stage Coach on wooden wheels in comparison to the CGTS :-)
Porsche911R said:
very hard to be on the limit at pec let alone all the time :-) prob at 70% and most surfaces are low friction or water lol
What tedious and pointless response.Maybe they spent all day on the main PEC track. You can be on the limit on that all day long. Although it would be a little boring after a while.
I spent a substantial amount of time on the main and second circuit, with only minimal time on the kick plate/ice hill/low friction area. Once you get dialled in you just get quicker and quicker, pushing the car more learning what it can do.
I booked the first slot of the day and went straight out ASAP so I had the place to myself for a good while.
I booked the first slot of the day and went straight out ASAP so I had the place to myself for a good while.
That's the thing, most performance cars are too "quick" for road driving, unless you make the effort to get away from the traffic.
Granted the GT4 needs to be at looney road speeds to come properly alive, but part of the attraction is the extra interaction that's had at normal speeds compared to other modern Porsche's. I disagree that it's not well ahead of the GTS in this respect?
If you're 4 was bought at list it makes all the regular 981s look expensive- as for 718- enough said!!
Just to add, IMHO the ride quality for such a car is a revelation perhaps it's greatest achievement.
Granted the GT4 needs to be at looney road speeds to come properly alive, but part of the attraction is the extra interaction that's had at normal speeds compared to other modern Porsche's. I disagree that it's not well ahead of the GTS in this respect?
If you're 4 was bought at list it makes all the regular 981s look expensive- as for 718- enough said!!
Just to add, IMHO the ride quality for such a car is a revelation perhaps it's greatest achievement.
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