The 718 GT4 might be arriving sooner than you think!

[TDT]

Twinfan said:

TDT said:

RS swansong for the ICE in the Cayster - before the all new all electric replacement.

Can't see it happening. Wishful thinking IMHO. The limited run-out ICE 911 GT3/RS/R will be the halo.

I've been informed that an RS is coming at some point in the cycle.... I specifically said that the RS would be the swan song for ICE in the Cayster...not the 911.
Remember Porsche have recently announced the are extending the cycle of the current 718 platform so that they can transition directly to the new all electric replacement. Since 981 in 2012 we've have 991.1, 991.2 and 992 so far... by the time 718 (really 982) is finished that's at least 4 phases of 911... and 992.2 will be in production.

That makes sense.

Edited by TDT on Wednesday 12th June 14:41

[Twinfan]

True, a modded 981 GT4 may get you to the same sort of place but the option of running one with an extended Porsche warranty will always have a far larger pool of potential future buyers. The 981 GT4 isn't going to be more in demand than the 718 GT4 IMHO.

I don't think the road cars are going to be all that different either, for what it's worth.

[Twinfan]

TDT said:

I've been informed that an RS is coming.... I specifically said that the RS would be the swan song for ICE in the Cayster...not the 911.
Remember Porsche have recently announced the are extending the cycle of the current 718 platform so that they can transition directly to the new all electric replacement. Since 981 in 2012 we've have 991.1, 991.2 and 992 so far... by the time 718 (really 982) is finished that's at least 4 phases of 911... and 992.2 will be in production.

That makes sense.

Source for the RS rumour?

An RS mule exists and has been rumoured for the last couple of years. Have you heard something new? I wonder if the 718 GT4 coming with PDK is the source of the RS rumour and actually negates the need for one.

[TDT]

Twinfan said:

True, a modded 981 GT4 may get you to the same sort of place but the option of running one with an extended Porsche warranty will always have a far larger pool of potential future buyers. The 981 GT4 isn't going to be more in demand than the 718 GT4 IMHO.

I don't think the road cars are going to be all that different either, for what it's worth.

As an example... 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 customers don't really care about extended warranty... especially given its extensive limitations anyway.
981 GT4 will all be 4years old by the time 718 GT4 are being received by customers... only 2 issues with the car... 3rd Gear and Strut towers.
3rd Gear has been addressed by TSB WJ88, and strut towers are not covered by any policy or warranty so customers are on their own or via insurance.
OPCs are not really interested in selling old cars... they want to sell new cars... so extended warranty past 4years or once the new version of a model has come out is a profit making instrument for Porsche.

[Twinfan]

I hear you, but we're essentially talking about the the difference between a 997.1 GT3 and a 997.2 GT3. I would wager that most buyers of those cars would choose a standard 997.2 over a 997.1 with a 3.8 conversion.

Same will happen with the 981 GT4 vs 718 GT4 IMHO.

[TDT]

Twinfan said:

Source for the RS rumour?

An RS mule exists and has been rumoured for the last couple of years. Have you heard something new? I wonder if the 718 GT4 coming with PDK is the source of the RS rumour and actually negates the need for one.

My dealership... which i know is no better that anyones else word or anything new. They could be wrong and it doesn't make production... but no reason to say something is coming, when it isn't... I didn't even actually ask about an RS. I was told that allocations from retail group dealerships had more strict process now - and that people wouldn't be able to get all the models anymore... you get one and thats the one - e.g. people won't get both a GT3 and an RS in the same gen. So you have to decided what you want and put the chips in for that model.

Cayman 6 was confirmed and that it is not a GT-Tourig at all, totally different... Just really an engine option.

[TDT]

Twinfan said:

I hear you, but we're essentially talking about the the difference between a 997.1 GT3 and a 997.2 GT3. I would wager that most buyers of those cars would choose a standard 997.2 over a 997.1 with a 3.8 conversion.

Same will happen with the 981 GT4 vs 718 GT4 IMHO.

Depends on what you are using the car for. If there was a specialist in the UK doing 3.9L + conversions for 997.1 GT3, and specialising in optimising (a la Sharkwerks) ... they would be kings right now as many people prefer the 997.1 over the 997.2 - with power (20hp) being the only trump for the newer car. The 997.1 is rawer, with fewer electronic systems.

With each Gen the cars get more sophisticated, and in some PoVs more compromised, and further away from the primary purpose - as they widen their breadth of capability.

For me...I'm not sure how much can really change between the 981 GT4 and 718 GT4... wheelbase is the same. track can be made the same... so it new gen of damping? - they have't moved the engine... update to EPS? weight? then we down to 'aero' which many largely discount on a road car anyway. So then we are left with power... 3.8 tuned up to 435hp (bolt-ons and tune - no internals) or 4.0 with 420.
It is then just a question of can I get one... rather than a seismic shift in capability, would justify an 'upgrade'?

A main point of the 981 GT4 was tactility and interaction that the 991 GT3 had taken from it during those gen 1 days. What problem/gap is the 718 GT4 going to fill? Will it move the game on as a road car? the track car has been a nice upgrade for teams... not a game changer though by all accounts that i have seen.

Edited by TDT on Wednesday 12th June 15:13

[isaldiri]

TDT said:

... as many people prefer the 997.1 over the 997.2 - with power (20hp) being the only trump for the newer car. The 997.1 is rawer, with fewer electronic systems.

It is then just a question of can I get one... rather than a seismic shift in capability, would justify an 'upgrade'?

That's news to me. The main change to electronic systems was the addition of ESC which can be disabled. The 3.6 is I think supposed to be revvier and it almost certainly will be more reliable than the 3.8 but I don't agree at all that the 7.1 is 'rawer'. One can debate if the current price differential makes the 7.1 the better buy but one will I think be hard put to say the 7.2 isn't the better car overall, especially both in standard OEM spec.

Without wanting to be a prat, whenever the .2 (or effective .2 that the 718 will be) is being released, there's always seems this debate whether the gen2 car is worth the extra. People with the gen1 who aren't planning to change up always defend their car, people getting the new car vice versa. The new car isn't a seismic shift in capability, it never is within the same generation (996,997,991) but it certainly will be better.

[TDT]

isaldiri said:

TDT said:

... as many people prefer the 997.1 over the 997.2 - with power (20hp) being the only trump for the newer car. The 997.1 is rawer, with fewer electronic systems.

It is then just a question of can I get one... rather than a seismic shift in capability, would justify an 'upgrade'?

That's news to me. The main change to electronic systems was the addition of ESC which can be disabled. The 3.6 is I think supposed to be revvier and it almost certainly will be more reliable than the 3.8 but I don't agree at all that the 7.1 is 'rawer'. One can debate if the current price differential makes the 7.1 the better buy but one will I think be hard put to say the 7.2 isn't the better car overall, especially both in standard OEM spec.

Without wanting to be a prat, whenever the .2 (or effective .2 that the 718 will be) is being released, there's always seems this debate whether the gen2 car is worth the extra. People with the gen1 who aren't planning to change up always defend their car, people getting the new car vice versa. The new car isn't a seismic shift in capability, it never is within the same generation (996,997,991) but it certainly will be better.

Yep - there are 2 sides to the argument....I didn't state anything as fact...just replayed some of what i have read in other posts or videos that i have seen that make comparisons. As ever preference is subjective and individual. I didn't call one 'better' than the other... just different.

[Dblue]

isaldiri said:

TDT said:

... as many people prefer the 997.1 over the 997.2 - with power (20hp) being the only trump for the newer car. The 997.1 is rawer, with fewer electronic systems.

It is then just a question of can I get one... rather than a seismic shift in capability, would justify an 'upgrade'?

That's news to me. The main change to electronic systems was the addition of ESC which can be disabled. The 3.6 is I think supposed to be revvier and it almost certainly will be more reliable than the 3.8 but I don't agree at all that the 7.1 is 'rawer'. One can debate if the current price differential makes the 7.1 the better buy but one will I think be hard put to say the 7.2 isn't the better car overall, especially both in standard OEM spec.

Agree with this completely - 3.8 is just a bit better in every way. And the 7.1 is just older but fundamentally the same. You have to revert to 996 for a level of "rawness" by comparison

Without wanting to be a prat, whenever the .2 (or effective .2 that the 718 will be) is being released, there's always seems this debate whether the gen2 car is worth the extra. People with the gen1 who aren't planning to change up always defend their car, people getting the new car vice versa. The new car isn't a seismic shift in capability, it never is within the same generation (996,997,991) but it certainly will be better.

[isaldiri]

Dblue said:

Agree with this completely - 3.8 is just a bit better in every way. And the 7.1 is just older but fundamentally the same. You have to revert to 996 for a level of "rawness" by comparison

Always nice to be agreed with Do update when you've got your first few mods done btw and hope to see you on a trackday at some point!

[jimmsy]

I was at the Nurburgring last week and the GT4 mules (2 of them) were both running turbo engines. It could be testing the touring spec engines in the GT4 mules, or could be something else, but both of them over two days were 100% turbocharged. New GT3 sounded amazing though. Definately 100% naturally aspirated.

[TDT]

jimmsy said:

I was at the Nurburgring last week and the GT4 mules (2 of them) were both running turbo engines. It could be testing the touring spec engines in the GT4 mules, or could be something else, but both of them over two days were 100% turbocharged. New GT3 sounded amazing though. Definately 100% naturally aspirated.

Mr Cat... meet Pigeons...

[Twinfan]

jimmsy said:

I was at the Nurburgring last week and the GT4 mules (2 of them) were both running turbo engines. It could be testing the touring spec engines in the GT4 mules, or could be something else, but both of them over two days were 100% turbocharged. New GT3 sounded amazing though. Definately 100% naturally aspirated.

RacerMike said:

Twinfan said:

New video posted yesterday of the session RacerMike is talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5F9Bthu-yQ

Car reg 8791
First car then not seen again. Seems finished. PCCBs. Manual gearbox. Raspy exhaust.

Car reg 8810
Most common car. Seems finished. PCCBs. Low and bassy exhaust note. PDK gearbox. Sounds a lot like the 992 that follows it at 0:25. High speed drive-by at 2:38.

Car reg 8530
Appears at 1:25, 3:50 and 5:00, has the foam inserts in the wheel arches. Red steel brakes. Manual gearbox. Slightly higher pitched/raspier exhaust note?

In person, they all sound identical apart from the gearshifts. 100% it's an NA F6. One thing was clear though....the ratios in the PDK are definitely shorter than the manual. PDK car did a 2-3 or 3-4 shift between the two corners of Brunchen. The manual pulled one long gear from corner to corner with the revs being noticeably lower from apex to apex.

So who's right - RacerMike or jimmsy?

[TrackNutz]

Anyone got £25k to spare?

560bhp fly, 488whp. Wow.

https://youtu.be/kcR3Mq7utbE

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a25576535...

[isaldiri]

TDT said:

Yep - there are 2 sides to the argument....I didn't state anything as fact...just replayed some of what i have read in other posts or videos that i have seen that make comparisons. As ever preference is subjective and individual. I didn't call one 'better' than the other... just different.

I hate to be pedantic but you did say the 7.1 was 'rawer'. It really isn't as it's fundamentally the same thing as the 7.2

[gtsralph]

TrackNutz said:

Anyone got £25k to spare?

560bhp fly, 488whp. Wow.

https://youtu.be/kcR3Mq7utbE

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a25576535...

They were not willing to have these capacity upgrades installed outside the USA shops they were comfortable with when I last spoke with them about their 4.0L version.

Ehresmann built 4.2L version which he installed in his GT4 Clubsport and which he subsequently sold to an existing customer in Sweden or Norway before embarking on his current GT3RS engine install into his Clubsport.

[Cunno]

isaldiri said:

TDT said:

Yep - there are 2 sides to the argument....I didn't state anything as fact...just replayed some of what i have read in other posts or videos that i have seen that make comparisons. As ever preference is subjective and individual. I didn't call one 'better' than the other... just different.

I hate to be pedantic but you did say the 7.1 was 'rawer'. It really isn't as it's fundamentally the same thing as the 7.2

You could argue that the 7.2 has traction control as well as stability control and an up graded PASM and this could be derived as less raw?

[frayz]

TrackNutz said:

Anyone got £25k to spare?

560bhp fly, 488whp. Wow.

https://youtu.be/kcR3Mq7utbE

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a25576535...

Intersting the yanks always claim WHP. Yet the title on the hub dyno clearly says "Flywheel HP" lol

Sounds lovely though

[TDT]

Cunno said:

isaldiri said:

TDT said:

Yep - there are 2 sides to the argument....I didn't state anything as fact...just replayed some of what i have read in other posts or videos that i have seen that make comparisons. As ever preference is subjective and individual. I didn't call one 'better' than the other... just different.

I hate to be pedantic but you did say the 7.1 was 'rawer'. It really isn't as it's fundamentally the same thing as the 7.2

You could argue that the 7.2 has traction control as well as stability control and an up graded PASM and this could be derived as less raw?

I didn't want to get in to the weeds and semantics of this, as its all subjective anyway... but Cunno you have said it.
Some people might argue that as systems like this get more sophisticated and have more control, they 'dumb' a car down or take the driver a further step away from the pure or core mechanical experience... therefore less raw. I don't think this is true in all cases. But raw - if we call it that...doesn't mean better.

At the end of the day this is all in relative degrees... these road cars are not raw by any stretch.

Edited by TDT on Wednesday 12th June 19:19