The 718 GT4 might be arriving sooner than you think!
Discussion
isaldiri said:
But it's not the torque limit whether gearbox or artificially limited that imo handicaps the engine in any way. It's the way the power curve tails off after 7000rpm that made the older engine seem somewhat sluggish at the very top of the rev range. Even allowing for the published power curve being a bit unrepresentative (not unknown) the new engine looks to have mostly corrected that.
If people are looking for reasons to knock the engine I'm sure one can find them but take it for what it is and I think it'll be a pretty good engine, not as good as a gt3 (any gt3) one obviously but you are not paying gt3 prices either.....
All fair points, but Porsche have had to restrict torque throughout the rev range so it'll be interesting to see if they've done that without making the engine feel restricted. Like I said, I'm curious to hear what the journos think...If people are looking for reasons to knock the engine I'm sure one can find them but take it for what it is and I think it'll be a pretty good engine, not as good as a gt3 (any gt3) one obviously but you are not paying gt3 prices either.....
TrackNutz said:
GT4RS said:
I was referring to the reliability issues we all know the 991.1 gt3 has and will be faced with in the future.
I assume you have obviously driven the new gt4 4.0 to make the above comment?
Reliability? Assuming both cars have warranty of which they would, as owning either car you'd still pay the annual OPC warranty, then you have no argument at all. All engines were replaced for rod bolt issues and future chocolate valvetrains will be covered by warranty. End of. I imagine the 718 will have issues as every model does. I assume you have obviously driven the new gt4 4.0 to make the above comment?
You obviously haven't driven one, so I highly suggest you do, rather than me list all the reasons why the 991.1 GT3 is a much better car than the 981 GT4 in every way.
Furthermore, with the 718 GT4 only being able to improve upon the chassis and a new PCM fundamentally, anyone who thinks the new 4.0 engine will be any closer to a proper motorsport engine is obviously blinded by marketing. They can't even put the real engine sounds in their videos, embarrassing. Step backwards for me with the added GPF and all of a sudden the GT3 makes every ounce of sense.
Do you think the next batch of gt3 rs cars coming and the new speedsters are a step backwards to as they have these GPF as well? New things are added to each series of cars all
the time, not all are bad.
As with Porsche each model evolves and improves gradually, to be negative about the newly developed 4.0 is unfair if you haven’t driven / real world tested it. Lets see what the journalist say. I would be gob smacked if they say what some are already saying on here.l with even sitting in it let alone driven it properly.
I’ve never bothered with the 991.1 series i went from the 997 series to the 991.2 series so i can only comment on the reliability issues the 991.1 gt3 engine has rather than how it drives.
I’m not doubting the 991.1 gt3 is a great driving experience, but it will always have the shadow cast over it due to the engine failure issues it has been faced with from the beginning, which is a shame imo. Agree a extended warranty, is a must for any Porsche considering how cost effective it is. I’ve never owned a Porsche without one and probably never would as long as they keep the price sensible like it has been and currently is.
I’m looking forward to the new Gt4, will it be improved over the last one. Of cause will it be as good as a 911.2 series car in every way. No it’s not designed to be hence the list price of £75k.
Porsche have designed it to be the prefect entry level GT, you can’t knock them there not daft. The only other great car currently sitting in its price point is a used 997.2 sofa seat car with 20k on the clock someone else specified and probably been owned by 3 other people in between. This would be my second choice if the gt4 4.0 hadn’t of landed.
Porsche911R said:
Twinfan said:
The biggest problem for me with the new 4.0, and the previous 3.8, is that it's clearly been limited in torque due to the gearbox Porsche are using. There must be all kinds of things going on to handicap it.
I don't think it'll make for a great engine, but we need to see what the journos say now they've driven the car at Knockhill.
engine is ok imo, it revs higher than a 997 GT3 as an example ;-) and has more torque and there is not a bad thing is said about 997 GT3's !I don't think it'll make for a great engine, but we need to see what the journos say now they've driven the car at Knockhill.
it's the same gearing that sucks the life from these cars, but you can fit a short final drive a in a 997 GT3 and you cannot in the Cayman.
unlike the 991.2 RS models Porsche got the sound back by removing the 2 side boxes, the GT4 gains weight and losses noise as they cannot do anything with it to over come the filters like the GT3's and Speedsters !!
on paper it will have all the same issues as the older GT4 but with 2 added new ones, noise and extra weight !
weight was a great thing about the GT4 (as was the £64k price) as it made sure it was way below GT3's and you can feel weight every where. Adding weight to a GT product is never good news nor is removing noise.
I cannot under stand any one buying a GT4 at these new prices and extra negatives, over a 997.2 GT3 at todays prices ! if you are serious about owning a drivers GT product.
when I bought my GT4 there was a close to a £40k gap between the two, today if you spec PCCB on the GT4 that buys you a 997.2 GT3 !!
It's not even a choice is it ?
isaldiri said:
No the new engine does not rev higher than a 997 gt3.
And for all the moaning about gearing, the 981 gt4 will do similar in gear speeds to the mythical manual 991.2gt3.
ok the same peak BHP at the same revs it seems both 7600 to make max BHP and that's what counts . and the GT4 4.0 has more torque 420 vs 405 and now in a much wider band, and we all know Torque wins races :-), it will wee wee all over a 997.1 maybe even the 997.2 GT3 if lap times are a thing.And for all the moaning about gearing, the 981 gt4 will do similar in gear speeds to the mythical manual 991.2gt3.
for me feel is more important, noise is, weight is etc etc I want to feel excited while driving a GT car.
my Spyder which does 74 MPh over 85 in the GT4 is such a massive difference on the road it feels night and day for such a small amount of mph
that's what matters, "FEEL"
as for the 991.2 GT3 peak is at 8250 , 9k is for holding onto the revs and not losing power on track if needed mid bend, it give you options, on the road you change at 8250 or as close to as possible.
I'll try , and it's bloody hard as the revs fire up like a b
d at 8k in the 991.2 GT3, see if I can see what speed is 8250 in 2nd gear.either way it has the punch to fire though the gears and while yes you are going faster (A lot lot faster), you are just changing gear more often than driving a GT4 that's just how it is.
lower ratio's in the older GT4 or the new one or even the 997 GT3 is worth about a 40bhp feeling on the road, just more alive every where.
I have zero issues with this new 4.0 engine, it sounds pretty good at this level, it's the leave it in 3rd gear every where model , less noise and more weight which puts me off esp when it's now a bit more expensive. I was hoping to swap my GT3 for the new GT4 and put £50k in my pocket but it's not good enough to do such a swap.
anyway I have voted with my feet this week and switch brands to some thing pretty special, I'll add a 997.2 GT3 at some point maybe the RS to the fleet.
GT4 will be a great car, that's a given, but I doubt it will feel an exciting car. Not many cars are these days. and that's the rub for me.
£95k 997.2 GT3 over the new GT4 if it were my money, but that's just me.
GT4RS said:
Remember Porsche have confirmed the weight gain shown on paper is due to how new cars have to be tested, they used to be tested and shown in the basic lightest spec. This isn’t allowed anymore, the new gt4 4.0 is apparently 30kg heavier than the 981 gt4 spec for spec. A fair chuck of this weight could be saved by simply changing a battery and staying off the beers. The average joe wouldn’t even notice a few KG
I know it's 30kg, but it's in the wrong direction and closer to a GT3 now.You can put a battery in any car, the difference is 30kg more, that's that, my Spyder now 1240 kg and I aim it to be 1200kg, its amazing to feel over driving my 991.1 GTS.
As you have money burning a hole in your pocket it seems but have sat on the side lines for 3 years, while I have owed another 6 Porkers !!!
A serious question for you, why for £95k would you pick a new GT4 over a 997.2 GT3 now ?
back in the day like I said the gap was £40k when I bought mine, now it's £5k or evens !!
For me it's not even a choice now the 997.2 GT3 wins hands down with my money.
Porsche911R said:
isaldiri said:
No the new engine does not rev higher than a 997 gt3.
And for all the moaning about gearing, the 981 gt4 will do similar in gear speeds to the mythical manual 991.2gt3.
ok the same peak BHP at the same revs it seems both 7600 to make max BHP and that's what counts . and the GT4 4.0 has more torque 420 vs 405 and now in a much wider band, and we all know Torque wins races :-), it will wee wee all over a 997.1 maybe even the 997.2 GT3 if lap times are a thing.And for all the moaning about gearing, the 981 gt4 will do similar in gear speeds to the mythical manual 991.2gt3.
for me feel is more important, noise is, weight is etc etc I want to feel excited while driving a GT car.
my Spyder which does 74 MPh over 85 in the GT4 is such a massive difference on the road it feels night and day for such a small amount of mph
that's what matters, "FEEL"
as for the 991.2 GT3 peak is at 8250 , 9k is for holding onto the revs and not losing power on track if needed mid bend, it give you options, on the road you change at 8250 or as close to as possible.
I'll try , and it's bloody hard as the revs fire up like a b
d at 8k in the 991.2 GT3, see if I can see what speed is 8250 in 2nd gear.either way it has the punch to fire though the gears and while yes you are going faster (A lot lot faster), you are just changing gear more often than driving a GT4 that's just how it is.
lower ratio's in the older GT4 or the new one or even the 997 GT3 is worth about a 40bhp feeling on the road, just more alive every where.
I have zero issues with this new 4.0 engine, it sounds pretty good at this level, it's the leave it in 3rd gear every where model , less noise and more weight which puts me off esp when it's now a bit more expensive. I was hoping to swap my GT3 for the new GT4 and put £50k in my pocket but it's not good enough to do such a swap.
anyway I have voted with my feet this week and switch brands to some thing pretty special, I'll add a 997.2 GT3 at some point maybe the RS to the fleet.
GT4 will be a great car, that's a given, but I doubt it will feel an exciting car. Not many cars are these days. and that's the rub for me.
£95k 997.2 GT3 over the new GT4 if it were my money, but that's just me.
Very well put and IMO a fair analysis. Pretty much exactly agree with that. Lower (RS) ratios and improved diff on my immediate list. Porsche911R said:
isaldiri said:
No the new engine does not rev higher than a 997 gt3.
And for all the moaning about gearing, the 981 gt4 will do similar in gear speeds to the mythical manual 991.2gt3.
anyway I have voted with my feet this week and switch brands to some thing pretty special, I'll add a 997.2 GT3 at some point maybe the RS to the fleet.And for all the moaning about gearing, the 981 gt4 will do similar in gear speeds to the mythical manual 991.2gt3.
Dblue said:
Very well put and IMO a fair analysis. Pretty much exactly agree with that. Lower (RS) ratios and improved diff on my immediate list. hence I change cars so often :-( a frustrating and expensive game.
now as I own all these bloody cars or have done I have just been out in my 991.2 manual to look at in gear speeds.
to put this to bed also for some armchair posters :-)
and it conforms how it feels.
At well over 8k revs I am changing from 2nd at about 72/3 mph and 3rd at about 97mph in the 991.2 manual, that feels petty good all told as expected as you have to own these cars to get the "feel" for them which makes them feel alive over just ok.
also to confirm as I have not been in my GT3 for about 2 weeks, yes it is worth £50k more than a GT4 lol fu*k me it makes me smile.
I have sold my 991.1 GTS due to the steering feel and yes 991.2 GT3 EPS is mega, not 987 or 997 mega but it's mega over the 991 inc 991.1 GT3.
Although I am still not sure about RWS esp out fast bends it don't feel right, I may add more monoballs lol, it's squirming a bit on WOT at the rear not in a good way, I do wonder how it goes from opposite steer to same way steering at speed, as imo it's not a nice feeling at key points.
And yes we know you are not changing at 74 and 85 in said 987's and GT4 as no one changes at red line on the nose either but it's the perception of how these really feel driven !! not figures, not dyno plots, not torque under the curve, but seat of the pants feelings.
And the 987 must be a few mph down on 74mph but the GT4 just felt a bit dead to me which brings me back to that "exciting" word. It's lacked it.
But with the 991.2 GT3's power, f**k it's a mighty thing and changing under a ton in 3rd is better than I would have expected in fact.
Now who's is that very very modded 997.2 GT3 at JZM, that is a wish list spec of a car imo, must have £30k mods.
Porsche911R said:
ok the same peak BHP at the same revs it seems both 7600 to make max BHP and that's what counts .
for me feel is more important, noise is, weight is etc etc I want to feel excited while driving a GT car.
my Spyder which does 74 MPh over 85 in the GT4
as for the 991.2 GT3 peak is at 8250 , 9k is for holding onto the revs and not losing power on track if needed mid bend, it give you options, on the road you change at 8250 or as close to as possible.
I'll try , and it's bloody hard as the revs fire up like a bd at 8k in the 991.2 GT3, see if I can see what speed is 8250 in 2nd gear.
Then perhaps you should be consistent and compare the 981 gt4 speeds only at peak power as well at 7200. You're mixing and matching just to suit your particular agenda. Max hp isn't necessarily what counts (and isn't only torque all important to you...?), it's maximizing the area under the curve where you end up at your next shift point. for me feel is more important, noise is, weight is etc etc I want to feel excited while driving a GT car.
my Spyder which does 74 MPh over 85 in the GT4
as for the 991.2 GT3 peak is at 8250 , 9k is for holding onto the revs and not losing power on track if needed mid bend, it give you options, on the road you change at 8250 or as close to as possible.
I'll try , and it's bloody hard as the revs fire up like a b
d at 8k in the 991.2 GT3, see if I can see what speed is 8250 in 2nd gear.P.S that funny thing called maths which you disdain will show the 981gt4 at peak power will do similar speeds to the 991.2gt3 at peak power given they are similar speeds at the top.of the rev range and close enough the same % of peak power to rev limit. There is no particular reason to shift close to peak power apart from purely wanting to.
Porsche911R said:
I will tell all on Saturday on pick up, it's special though imo.
To afford the Scud would mean selling the GT3 and that's a no no atm, I love it.
I am now mental though, my oh will kill me and I have not told her yet !
No need To afford the Scud would mean selling the GT3 and that's a no no atm, I love it.
I am now mental though, my oh will kill me and I have not told her yet !
She’ll get the message when you come home in it ! Very interested to see what it is.
isaldiri said:
Then perhaps you should be consistent and compare the 981 gt4 speeds only at peak power as well at 7200. You're mixing and matching just to suit your particular agenda. Max hp isn't necessarily what counts (and isn't only torque all important to you...?), it's maximizing the area under the curve where you end up at your next shift point.
P.S that funny thing called maths which you disdain will show the 981gt4 at peak power will do similar speeds to the 991.2gt3 at peak power given they are similar speeds at the top.of the rev range and close enough the same % of peak power to rev limit. There is no particular reason to shift close to peak power apart from purely wanting to.
see my new post above, it puts it in black and white for you and why you have to drive these cars to see if they are exciting or not.P.S that funny thing called maths which you disdain will show the 981gt4 at peak power will do similar speeds to the 991.2gt3 at peak power given they are similar speeds at the top.of the rev range and close enough the same % of peak power to rev limit. There is no particular reason to shift close to peak power apart from purely wanting to.
I don't really care for maths and figures although they can be fun tools at pubs and forums or playing top trumps, it's all about how a car is to drive, and the GT3 in manual is a mega thing and imo def worth £50k more money than a GT4, it's very alive to drive and the gears come thick and fast..
As I said maths is a very moot point when driving for fun. it either feels right or don't and the GT4 did not work for me as the 996 GT3 did not work for me, but people love both those cars. I ran out of road in the 996 before the sweet spot as it's quite a slow car, and the GT4 just seems to have the life sapped from it, you just stay in 3rd which seems like for ever. in GT4 vids you see people changing gear for zero point what so ever at 5k revs , they must be so board they feel like they should just swap cogs !
look at the new Scotland GT4 tests, they are all lapping not changing gear !! bar the straight and hairpin, the rest is all in 3rd gear !
under the curve or not as Porsche plots are way off real ones, changing at 72 in 2nd and 97in 3rd seems to put you in a place where there is so much grunt you think you have a SC strapped to the engine in the 991.2 GT3.
any way I have just been out posted the in gear speeds I change at and it's exciting to drive, no maths will prove other wise.
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 10th July 12:40
Porsche911R said:
see my new post above, it puts it in black and white for you and why you have to drive these cars to see if they are exciting or not.
it's all about how a car is to drive, and the GT3 in manual is a mega thing
Well maths isn't a moot point or just playing top trumps as it's very obvious when you make a claim that is blatantly wrong.it's all about how a car is to drive, and the GT3 in manual is a mega thing
But actually I can agree with most of your post above. In the same way you think the gt4 is a good car but not particularly exciting, I think exactly the same about the 991 gt3 whether gen1 or 2. The 996 or 7gt3 works for me far more as a driving experience.
Porsche911R said:
GT4RS said:
Remember Porsche have confirmed the weight gain shown on paper is due to how new cars have to be tested, they used to be tested and shown in the basic lightest spec. This isn’t allowed anymore, the new gt4 4.0 is apparently 30kg heavier than the 981 gt4 spec for spec. A fair chuck of this weight could be saved by simply changing a battery and staying off the beers. The average joe wouldn’t even notice a few KG
I know it's 30kg, but it's in the wrong direction and closer to a GT3 now.You can put a battery in any car, the difference is 30kg more, that's that, my Spyder now 1240 kg and I aim it to be 1200kg, its amazing to feel over driving my 991.1 GTS.
As you have money burning a hole in your pocket it seems but have sat on the side lines for 3 years, while I have owed another 6 Porkers !!!
A serious question for you, why for £95k would you pick a new GT4 over a 997.2 GT3 now ?
back in the day like I said the gap was £40k when I bought mine, now it's £5k or evens !!
For me it's not even a choice now the 997.2 GT3 wins hands down with my money.
I don’t have money burning in my pocket, yes I have bought 3 different new Porsche’s over the last few years but like you have thought / planned for the new GT4 for a number of years
as this is the opportunity to get one as I want it. I personally like to have the opportunity to be able to specify my cars to how I like hence why I’m not one to really buy a used car. I wasn’t in the position to buy a new 991.2 gt3 as I had my 991.2 4s and I don’t have pots of cash to spend as I feel, I didn’t even bother asking for a gt3.
We are all different!
Porsche911R said:
Now who's is that very very modded 997.2 GT3 at JZM, that is a wish list spec of a car imo, must have £30k mods.
the white car? yes, Steve reckons its got £35k of upgrades on it. Certainly a wish list of enhancement if track days are your main focus.
Personally I think the ceramics are perhaps a step too far but just about everything else pretty desirable. Guess that when you start down this road it's a bit compulsive
Porsche911R said:
JayK12 said:
You got the Scud?!!!!
I will tell all on Saturday on pick up, it's special though imo.To afford the Scud would mean selling the GT3 and that's a no no atm, I love it.
I am now mental though, my oh will kill me and I have not told her yet !
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