The 718 GT4 might be arriving sooner than you think!

The 718 GT4 might be arriving sooner than you think!

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Discussion

BE57JAM

261 posts

4 months

Friday 23rd February
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cmoose said:
BE57JAM said:
I don’t see the logic that the 4l engine would make sense. That to me is you making something fit your world view, which evidently is not every bodies. That’s not meant as an insult though. We’re all doing it.
No, it's not me fitting something to my world view. At all. I didn't moot or propose the 4.0. I made it clear that I mainly just think it will be NA F6. And I base that view on the information we have.

The 4.0 is somebody else's idea and I'm not and haven't been saying that's what I think it will be.

BE57JAM said:
If we take the boss’ words as gospel then my best guess at engine type would be the old 3.8l plus a turbo.
Then that would be terrible guess because there's is nothing in what they have said to indicate it will be that and several things they have said to indicate it won't be that.
Ok if it’s a terrible guess, nice of you to put it so gently hahaha. It is only a guess after all. I just think that would fit in after the 2l and 2.5l 4 pot turbos in the 718 series.

Odd that you would deny that you are fitting things to your world view though. You literally said the following in the post I replied to:

“The 4.0 thing would make sense in marketing terms just like 3.8 made sense last time for the same reason.”

cmoose

41,792 posts

159 months

Friday 23rd February
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DuncGTS said:
Well after seeing the news about the next new 911 all going turbo charged including the GT range and Porsche having to rush out all the GT3/GT3 RS with the new 4L engine in before the end of this year due to new co2 rules, then is there any hope that a new GT4 will be N.A. as if they plan on it then they had better get it out for sale very quick.
Regarding the info in the PH story involving all-turbo and the power outputs etc, it's both irrelevant and old. It's old because it was on Automobile.com written by Kacher some time ago. I think it was pinched from there but not referenced in the PH story.

It's irrelevant because it's in reference to the 992. So it no more prevents the mooted 718 GT4 from being NA than it does the 991.2 GT3 from being NA. Which it is.

Am not clear myself what the implications of any emissions laws are, but I don't they overtly prevent an NA GT4 from being produced. They may make it more difficult or expensive.

cmoose

41,792 posts

159 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
BE57JAM said:
Odd that you would deny that you are fitting things to your world view though. You literally said the following in the post I replied to:

“The 4.0 thing would make sense in marketing terms just like 3.8 made sense last time for the same reason.”
The 4.0 would make sense in marketing terms because it aligns the GT4 with the current GT3, just as 3.8 aligned with the previous GT3 in the previous GT4.

How is that odd or fitting anything to any world view?

cmoose

41,792 posts

159 months

Friday 23rd February
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DuncGTS said:
The new GT3 RS is not that much different to the normal GT3 this time round as some people where hoping for more but I think Porsche where fast running out of time due to the engine and with all the new 911 GT cars that have just come out have Porsche had time to fully sort a new Cayman GT car ?
What? You mean like the 997.1 RS, which had no more power than the GT3. Or the 996 RS? The gap between 997.2 GT3 and RS was 15PS.

The 991.1 RS had an extra 25PS. The 991.2 has an extra 20PS. In what way do you think the gap between the new RS and GT3 is less than previous generations?

DuncGTS

72 posts

36 months

Friday 23rd February
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I don't know what Porsche would have to do to get the engine to pass the new co2 test or what it would cost and more importantly what it would do to the power, but I know they need to get them sold and registered this year as they can not be sold in 2019 if what they say is true.
Plus the new 992 all to be turbo means good bye to the new 4L engine as it looks like sorting it out to pass is too much trouble or cost ECT

So where does that leave us for a new fast Cayman ?
70K starting price range and small run of cars does not leave much for an expensive engine to go in.
Porsche last time raided the parts bin for the GT4 to keep costs low and can not see them doing anything much different, so that leaves a 4pot turbo engine of some kind from the 718 or a 3L turbo engine from the Carrara
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BE57JAM

261 posts

4 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
cmoose said:
BE57JAM said:
Odd that you would deny that you are fitting things to your world view though. You literally said the following in the post I replied to:

“The 4.0 thing would make sense in marketing terms just like 3.8 made sense last time for the same reason.”
The 4.0 would make sense in marketing terms because it aligns the GT4 with the current GT3, just as 3.8 aligned with the previous GT3 in the previous GT4.

How is that odd or fitting anything to any world view?
Hahaha - I don’t care enough to explain. Go a bit easy on us mere mortals when we say something “makes sense”. It’s no less reasonable than when you say it.

cmoose

41,792 posts

159 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
DuncGTS said:
So where does that leave us for a new fast Cayman ?
70K starting price range and small run of cars does not leave much for an expensive engine to go in.
Porsche last time raided the parts bin for the GT4 to keep costs low and can not see them doing anything much different, so that leaves a 4pot turbo engine of some kind from the 718 or a 3L turbo engine from the Carrara
No, it doesn't.

First of all, the current information we have from Porsche is as follows:

Not four cylinder.
Natural aspiration preferred.
New race car will have a bit more power and aero as derived from street car.

Some people want to ignore that (for reasons they have failed to justify), but that is all the information we have from official sources as far as I am aware.

You need an overwhelmingly strong argument or some actual evidence to even consider the F4T. You're not providing either, so forget the F4T until that happens.

Nobody has provided any compelling reason to favour the 3.0. It's not equivalent to the 3.8 in the old GT4 because the 3.0 turbo has never been fitted to the 718 chassis and would require extensive engineering to do so.

You may not be aware, but the 3.8 in the GT4 isn't a 'bigger' engine externally. They're all the same, the extra capacity is internal. It just needed some new ancillaries like induction and exhaust pieces. In other words, not much work required to fit it to the 981, which already had the same block as standard in every mode.

All the options have downsides. The 3.0 needs engineering, it's an expensive engine and it's turbo. The old MA1 is, well, old and would need resurrecting, which is complicated and expensive.

It's hard to judge which option would be more expensive or complicated. I'm not claiming to know that. Unless you are claiming to know that and can provide clear guidance, the info we have (ie NA favoured) clearly favours an NA engine and not the 3.0 turbo.

cmoose

41,792 posts

159 months

Friday 23rd February
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BE57JAM said:
Hahaha - I don’t care enough to explain.
Awfully convenient. And not terribly convincing! tongue out

ChrisW.

2,927 posts

185 months

Friday 23rd February
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What if the new 992 is mid-engined ?

What if P were to fill the short term torque hole of the Turbos with an electric turbo from a 48v vehicle system on the GT cars ?

They are looking for technology to fix COx and NOx issues.

There must be a price to pay for their previous indiscretions and a six month shut down and the end of Diesels shows that somebody is very much in charge at P ...




cmoose

41,792 posts

159 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
ChrisW. said:
What if the new 992 is mid-engined ?
It's not.

DuncGTS

72 posts

36 months

Friday 23rd February
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cmoose said:
No, it doesn't.

First of all, the current information we have from Porsche is as follows:

Not four cylinder.
Natural aspiration preferred.
New race car will have a bit more power and aero as derived from street car.

Some people want to ignore that (for reasons they have failed to justify), but that is all the information we have from official sources as far as I am aware.

You need an overwhelmingly strong argument or some actual evidence to even consider the F4T. You're not providing either, so forget the F4T until that happens.

Nobody has provided any compelling reason to favour the 3.0. It's not equivalent to the 3.8 in the old GT4 because the 3.0 turbo has never been fitted to the 718 chassis and would require extensive engineering to do so.

You may not be aware, but the 3.8 in the GT4 isn't a 'bigger' engine externally. They're all the same, the extra capacity is internal. It just needed some new ancillaries like induction and exhaust pieces. In other words, not much work required to fit it to the 981, which already had the same block as standard in every mode.

All the options have downsides. The 3.0 needs engineering, it's an expensive engine and it's turbo. The old MA1 is, well, old and would need resurrecting, which is complicated and expensive.

It's hard to judge which option would be more expensive or complicated. I'm not claiming to know that. Unless you are claiming to know that and can provide clear guidance, the info we have (ie NA favoured) clearly favours an NA engine and not the 3.0 turbo.
Well you seem to be saying the same old stuff time and time again and completely blinkered and I am not overly bothered to be fair, but I can see more than one final outcome for this car and let's not forget it might not even be a GT4 or even a Cayman.
Plus let's not forget that just a few days again it was said that Porsche had said it will keep GT cars N.A. for as long as it can, well that will be about a week then going from today's Porsche report and with that you can hold on to what ever you wish that's been said as times are changing fast in the car world and I am sorry to say that big N.A. engines are out.
I have heard the test mules going round the track back in December and it wasn't a N.A. noise coming out the back, yes they may have loads going about but have you heard one ? Err, guess that will be no but I guess you have heard all the rumours lol

As said 70k car, where do you go for an engine, bespoke one off 4L from the GT3 that's struggling to meet the regs, old 3.8 with bits on to get to 420 ish bhp which once again will need work to meet the regs I guess, all for a low volume car that you need to keep cheap or go for it quick while you can and build a full fat 500 bhp GT4 / RS to get ride of the last remaining engines and ps off all the 911 GT3 owners that have just got their new Cars.

I don't know and only time will tell and until then we can all keep on going round and round and round as I guess that's just what Porsche wants

cmoose

41,792 posts

159 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
DuncGTS said:
Well you seem to be saying the same old stuff time and time again and completely blinkered
What specifically is blinkered about the things I have posted. It's easy to cast aspersions like that. But I doubt you can come up with much by way of specifics. Accurate specifics, at any rate.

Cheib

14,632 posts

105 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
Nobody knows exactly the reason but it seems like 991.2 GT3 production is ceasing for Europe in Q2 of this year...according to Rennlist there are people in the US that have allocations for Q3/4 of this year which is apparently because there are new emissions regulations coming in Europe this in Sep this year. What seems to be the rushed launch and production of the new GT3 RS seems to support thus with people having locked spec thus week and taking delivery in April.

I don’t remember for sure but I can’t remember a GT Porsche being launched and delivered so quickly ? GT3 was launched around the same time last year with the first deliveries in July. People that have allocations have been told it’s not certain there will be more cars after Sep.

All of that seems relatively reliable info. We also know Porsche has been blindsided on emissions vis a vis diesel. So I don’t think they know anything for sure right now. Maybe they’ve been blindsided on naturally aspirated engines too?

Of all the above I think the pertinent info is that GT3 can’t be sold in Europe in Q4 this year. Maybe that’s because they don’t want to engineer new emissions hardware or maybe it’s because the engine can’t be made implant with European standards easily ? That may explain why GT3 RS has been rushed out.

If they can’t engineer a solution to sell a GT3 / RS with a 4.0 N/A engine how can they afford to do it for the GT4 ?

cmoose

41,792 posts

159 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
Cheib said:
If they can’t engineer a solution to sell a GT3 / RS with a 4.0 N/A engine how can they afford to do it for the GT4 ?
Well, the issue may be delivering 500/520PS from 4.0 with the new regs.

If it was 420PS from 4.0, maybe the new regs aren't so onerous. I don't know. All I know is that if they have decided they can't or don't want to meet the regs with the 500/520PS engine, it doesn't automatically follow that a different engine with a dramatically different specification also cannot be or won't be done.

I doubt the new regs prevent NA per se. What they probably do is make it harder to hit the regs and achieve other targets like specific output.

rkwm1

Original Poster:

466 posts

32 months

Friday 23rd February
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otisdog said:
GT4 RS will have a 480 hp NA six....
woohoocloud9

J-P

3,834 posts

136 months

Friday 23rd February
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This debate is frankly bizarre. There is precisely no official commentary saying that the new GT4 is an F4T. However there are quotes that state the the GT division prefer NA and F6 is their preferred configuration. It’s therefore not a wild leap to believe that the next GT4 will be a naturally aspirated flat 6.

Also, I suspect sales of the F4T have been utterly st. I believe this because the Cayman GTS has a deposit contribution online and a number of potential buyers of the car won’t touch it because it sounds awful. I can’t imagine that Porsche’s GT division is looking at all the negative press and thinking - let’s get some of that action!

Also I doubt the next GT4 is going to be £70k, I reckon £80k minimum probably £90k.

DuncGTS

72 posts

36 months

Friday 23rd February
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cmoose said:
What specifically is blinkered about the things I have posted. It's easy to cast aspersions like that. But I doubt you can come up with much by way of specifics. Accurate specifics, at any rate.
Well as said I have heard it going round the track testing in Italy and that's 100% more real than all this talk

Cheib

14,632 posts

105 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
cmoose said:
Cheib said:
If they can’t engineer a solution to sell a GT3 / RS with a 4.0 N/A engine how can they afford to do it for the GT4 ?
Well, the issue may be delivering 500/520PS from 4.0 with the new regs.

If it was 420PS from 4.0, maybe the new regs aren't so onerous. I don't know. All I know is that if they have decided they can't or don't want to meet the regs with the 500/520PS engine, it doesn't automatically follow that a different engine with a dramatically different specification also cannot be or won't be done.

I doubt the new regs prevent NA per se. What they probably do is make it harder to hit the regs and achieve other targets like specific output.
I don’t think they do prevent NA specifically but maybe they do because of the tests they have to meet....but do any of the other majors actually make NA engines any more? I’ve no idea but do BMW, Audi or Merc even sell NA cars ?!?!

The one thing that we all know really matters is cost and the cheapest solution is absolutely a F4T. After that I don’t know what’s cheaper but it will probably be cheaper to use the F6T from the Carrera or Carrera S in terms of the engine cost than use a 4.0 NA engine. Which one of those easier and cheaper to fit into the 718 I have no idea.

So I think a combination of the cost implications and my amateurish understanding of emissions regs makes an NA engine the least likely but the engineers will deffo be doing all they can to get an NA engine in the car.


av185

6,426 posts

57 months

Friday 23rd February
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J-P said:
Also I doubt the next GT4 is going to be £70k, I reckon £80k minimum probably £90k.
Doubtful it will be over early £70ks. 981 was £65k. Gen 2 GT3 only 10% increase on gen1.

Unlike 911 the Cayman has a ceiling price, even in GT4 form.

Also don't forget the Cayman/Boxster role reversal for the price wise for the 718.

DuncGTS

72 posts

36 months

Friday 23rd February
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With the gt3 allocations being locked in now as time is running out for us UK and Europe, dosnt that mean that if the gt4 was coming with a N.A. engine that too should be being locked in now as well ?
Carnt see a de tuned 4L engine being any more efficient and look at the old gt4 with the de tuned 3.8 that's not any better than the original engine spec and if anything it's worse as mine loves fuel lol

But we live in hope I guess and at least Porsche daired to do one Cayman with a 911 engine in, even if they had to skupple it to slow it down as not to upset the all mighty 911 and that's the biggest problem