The 718 GT4 might be arriving sooner than you think!

The 718 GT4 might be arriving sooner than you think!

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Discussion

BE57JAM

306 posts

10 months

Friday 23rd February
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cmoose said:
BE57JAM said:
Odd that you would deny that you are fitting things to your world view though. You literally said the following in the post I replied to:

“The 4.0 thing would make sense in marketing terms just like 3.8 made sense last time for the same reason.”
The 4.0 would make sense in marketing terms because it aligns the GT4 with the current GT3, just as 3.8 aligned with the previous GT3 in the previous GT4.

How is that odd or fitting anything to any world view?
Hahaha - I don’t care enough to explain. Go a bit easy on us mere mortals when we say something “makes sense”. It’s no less reasonable than when you say it.

cmoose

43,065 posts

165 months

Friday 23rd February
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DuncGTS said:
So where does that leave us for a new fast Cayman ?
70K starting price range and small run of cars does not leave much for an expensive engine to go in.
Porsche last time raided the parts bin for the GT4 to keep costs low and can not see them doing anything much different, so that leaves a 4pot turbo engine of some kind from the 718 or a 3L turbo engine from the Carrara
No, it doesn't.

First of all, the current information we have from Porsche is as follows:

Not four cylinder.
Natural aspiration preferred.
New race car will have a bit more power and aero as derived from street car.

Some people want to ignore that (for reasons they have failed to justify), but that is all the information we have from official sources as far as I am aware.

You need an overwhelmingly strong argument or some actual evidence to even consider the F4T. You're not providing either, so forget the F4T until that happens.

Nobody has provided any compelling reason to favour the 3.0. It's not equivalent to the 3.8 in the old GT4 because the 3.0 turbo has never been fitted to the 718 chassis and would require extensive engineering to do so.

You may not be aware, but the 3.8 in the GT4 isn't a 'bigger' engine externally. They're all the same, the extra capacity is internal. It just needed some new ancillaries like induction and exhaust pieces. In other words, not much work required to fit it to the 981, which already had the same block as standard in every mode.

All the options have downsides. The 3.0 needs engineering, it's an expensive engine and it's turbo. The old MA1 is, well, old and would need resurrecting, which is complicated and expensive.

It's hard to judge which option would be more expensive or complicated. I'm not claiming to know that. Unless you are claiming to know that and can provide clear guidance, the info we have (ie NA favoured) clearly favours an NA engine and not the 3.0 turbo.

cmoose

43,065 posts

165 months

Friday 23rd February
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BE57JAM said:
Hahaha - I don’t care enough to explain.
Awfully convenient. And not terribly convincing! tongue out

ChrisW.

2,972 posts

191 months

Friday 23rd February
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What if the new 992 is mid-engined ?

What if P were to fill the short term torque hole of the Turbos with an electric turbo from a 48v vehicle system on the GT cars ?

They are looking for technology to fix COx and NOx issues.

There must be a price to pay for their previous indiscretions and a six month shut down and the end of Diesels shows that somebody is very much in charge at P ...




cmoose

43,065 posts

165 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
ChrisW. said:
What if the new 992 is mid-engined ?
It's not.
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DuncGTS

91 posts

42 months

Friday 23rd February
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cmoose said:
No, it doesn't.

First of all, the current information we have from Porsche is as follows:

Not four cylinder.
Natural aspiration preferred.
New race car will have a bit more power and aero as derived from street car.

Some people want to ignore that (for reasons they have failed to justify), but that is all the information we have from official sources as far as I am aware.

You need an overwhelmingly strong argument or some actual evidence to even consider the F4T. You're not providing either, so forget the F4T until that happens.

Nobody has provided any compelling reason to favour the 3.0. It's not equivalent to the 3.8 in the old GT4 because the 3.0 turbo has never been fitted to the 718 chassis and would require extensive engineering to do so.

You may not be aware, but the 3.8 in the GT4 isn't a 'bigger' engine externally. They're all the same, the extra capacity is internal. It just needed some new ancillaries like induction and exhaust pieces. In other words, not much work required to fit it to the 981, which already had the same block as standard in every mode.

All the options have downsides. The 3.0 needs engineering, it's an expensive engine and it's turbo. The old MA1 is, well, old and would need resurrecting, which is complicated and expensive.

It's hard to judge which option would be more expensive or complicated. I'm not claiming to know that. Unless you are claiming to know that and can provide clear guidance, the info we have (ie NA favoured) clearly favours an NA engine and not the 3.0 turbo.
Well you seem to be saying the same old stuff time and time again and completely blinkered and I am not overly bothered to be fair, but I can see more than one final outcome for this car and let's not forget it might not even be a GT4 or even a Cayman.
Plus let's not forget that just a few days again it was said that Porsche had said it will keep GT cars N.A. for as long as it can, well that will be about a week then going from today's Porsche report and with that you can hold on to what ever you wish that's been said as times are changing fast in the car world and I am sorry to say that big N.A. engines are out.
I have heard the test mules going round the track back in December and it wasn't a N.A. noise coming out the back, yes they may have loads going about but have you heard one ? Err, guess that will be no but I guess you have heard all the rumours lol

As said 70k car, where do you go for an engine, bespoke one off 4L from the GT3 that's struggling to meet the regs, old 3.8 with bits on to get to 420 ish bhp which once again will need work to meet the regs I guess, all for a low volume car that you need to keep cheap or go for it quick while you can and build a full fat 500 bhp GT4 / RS to get ride of the last remaining engines and ps off all the 911 GT3 owners that have just got their new Cars.

I don't know and only time will tell and until then we can all keep on going round and round and round as I guess that's just what Porsche wants

cmoose

43,065 posts

165 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
DuncGTS said:
Well you seem to be saying the same old stuff time and time again and completely blinkered
What specifically is blinkered about the things I have posted. It's easy to cast aspersions like that. But I doubt you can come up with much by way of specifics. Accurate specifics, at any rate.

Cheib

15,408 posts

111 months

Friday 23rd February
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Nobody knows exactly the reason but it seems like 991.2 GT3 production is ceasing for Europe in Q2 of this year...according to Rennlist there are people in the US that have allocations for Q3/4 of this year which is apparently because there are new emissions regulations coming in Europe this in Sep this year. What seems to be the rushed launch and production of the new GT3 RS seems to support thus with people having locked spec thus week and taking delivery in April.

I don’t remember for sure but I can’t remember a GT Porsche being launched and delivered so quickly ? GT3 was launched around the same time last year with the first deliveries in July. People that have allocations have been told it’s not certain there will be more cars after Sep.

All of that seems relatively reliable info. We also know Porsche has been blindsided on emissions vis a vis diesel. So I don’t think they know anything for sure right now. Maybe they’ve been blindsided on naturally aspirated engines too?

Of all the above I think the pertinent info is that GT3 can’t be sold in Europe in Q4 this year. Maybe that’s because they don’t want to engineer new emissions hardware or maybe it’s because the engine can’t be made implant with European standards easily ? That may explain why GT3 RS has been rushed out.

If they can’t engineer a solution to sell a GT3 / RS with a 4.0 N/A engine how can they afford to do it for the GT4 ?

cmoose

43,065 posts

165 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
Cheib said:
If they can’t engineer a solution to sell a GT3 / RS with a 4.0 N/A engine how can they afford to do it for the GT4 ?
Well, the issue may be delivering 500/520PS from 4.0 with the new regs.

If it was 420PS from 4.0, maybe the new regs aren't so onerous. I don't know. All I know is that if they have decided they can't or don't want to meet the regs with the 500/520PS engine, it doesn't automatically follow that a different engine with a dramatically different specification also cannot be or won't be done.

I doubt the new regs prevent NA per se. What they probably do is make it harder to hit the regs and achieve other targets like specific output.

rkwm1

Original Poster:

555 posts

38 months

Friday 23rd February
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otisdog said:
GT4 RS will have a 480 hp NA six....
woohoocloud9

J-P

3,884 posts

142 months

Friday 23rd February
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This debate is frankly bizarre. There is precisely no official commentary saying that the new GT4 is an F4T. However there are quotes that state the the GT division prefer NA and F6 is their preferred configuration. It’s therefore not a wild leap to believe that the next GT4 will be a naturally aspirated flat 6.

Also, I suspect sales of the F4T have been utterly st. I believe this because the Cayman GTS has a deposit contribution online and a number of potential buyers of the car won’t touch it because it sounds awful. I can’t imagine that Porsche’s GT division is looking at all the negative press and thinking - let’s get some of that action!

Also I doubt the next GT4 is going to be £70k, I reckon £80k minimum probably £90k.

DuncGTS

91 posts

42 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
cmoose said:
What specifically is blinkered about the things I have posted. It's easy to cast aspersions like that. But I doubt you can come up with much by way of specifics. Accurate specifics, at any rate.
Well as said I have heard it going round the track testing in Italy and that's 100% more real than all this talk

Cheib

15,408 posts

111 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
cmoose said:
Cheib said:
If they can’t engineer a solution to sell a GT3 / RS with a 4.0 N/A engine how can they afford to do it for the GT4 ?
Well, the issue may be delivering 500/520PS from 4.0 with the new regs.

If it was 420PS from 4.0, maybe the new regs aren't so onerous. I don't know. All I know is that if they have decided they can't or don't want to meet the regs with the 500/520PS engine, it doesn't automatically follow that a different engine with a dramatically different specification also cannot be or won't be done.

I doubt the new regs prevent NA per se. What they probably do is make it harder to hit the regs and achieve other targets like specific output.
I don’t think they do prevent NA specifically but maybe they do because of the tests they have to meet....but do any of the other majors actually make NA engines any more? I’ve no idea but do BMW, Audi or Merc even sell NA cars ?!?!

The one thing that we all know really matters is cost and the cheapest solution is absolutely a F4T. After that I don’t know what’s cheaper but it will probably be cheaper to use the F6T from the Carrera or Carrera S in terms of the engine cost than use a 4.0 NA engine. Which one of those easier and cheaper to fit into the 718 I have no idea.

So I think a combination of the cost implications and my amateurish understanding of emissions regs makes an NA engine the least likely but the engineers will deffo be doing all they can to get an NA engine in the car.


av185

7,173 posts

63 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
J-P said:
Also I doubt the next GT4 is going to be £70k, I reckon £80k minimum probably £90k.
Doubtful it will be over early £70ks. 981 was £65k. Gen 2 GT3 only 10% increase on gen1.

Unlike 911 the Cayman has a ceiling price, even in GT4 form.

Also don't forget the Cayman/Boxster role reversal for the price wise for the 718.

DuncGTS

91 posts

42 months

Friday 23rd February
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With the gt3 allocations being locked in now as time is running out for us UK and Europe, dosnt that mean that if the gt4 was coming with a N.A. engine that too should be being locked in now as well ?
Carnt see a de tuned 4L engine being any more efficient and look at the old gt4 with the de tuned 3.8 that's not any better than the original engine spec and if anything it's worse as mine loves fuel lol

But we live in hope I guess and at least Porsche daired to do one Cayman with a 911 engine in, even if they had to skupple it to slow it down as not to upset the all mighty 911 and that's the biggest problem

RBT0

664 posts

55 months

Friday 23rd February
quotequote all
otisdog said:
Okay - I have a source who states the GT4 will have a 420 hp NA six, and the GT4 RS will have a 480 hp NA six. I have no credibility here, rarely post, and don't partake in pissing matches here, so take it as you will.
But Focker isn't the only one making that claim...
PDK or Manual?

cmoose

43,065 posts

165 months

Saturday 24th February
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DuncGTS said:
Well as said I have heard it going round the track testing in Italy and that's 100% more real than all this talk
No, that’s not 100% more real than on the record statements by senior Porsche reps.

You’re a random off the internet of no particular provenance. As am I. But I’m not making claims, just pointing out what Porsche reps have said.

I’d also dispute whether it’s obvious if these cars are turbo from the external sound. The Carrera 3.0 F6T mostly doesn’t sound very turbo from the outside. F4T would be obvious. F6 versus F6T less so.

DuncGTS

91 posts

42 months

Saturday 24th February
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cmoose said:
No, that’s not 100% more real than on the record statements by senior Porsche reps.

You’re a random off the internet of no particular provenance. As am I. But I’m not making claims, just pointing out what Porsche reps have said.

I’d also dispute whether it’s obvious if these cars are turbo from the external sound. The Carrera 3.0 F6T mostly doesn’t sound very turbo from the outside. F4T would be obvious. F6 versus F6T less so.
Well you are also just a random of the internet but with one big difference you have no real input just words.
If you carnt tell the difference between a screaming flat 6 and an engine that's got a turbo strapped to it then God help you, but I can.

You keep on salting and coming out with all sort of silly things as to why it won't be a 4L and for you I hope it is as it sounds like you are going to be very disappointed if it's not, I can see many good reasons for a 4L in the next car and also many good reasons for it not and the more time goes on and with all the stuff going on with the gt3 engine the more it looks like just a dream and for myself right from the start I did think that Porsche putting a flat 6 N.A. in the 718 would be very silly as it sends out a very strange message to anyone that is buying a new 718 Cayman and even more so a spider. Can see Porsche now answering the questions why, well the flat 4 turbo engine is just not good enough for the top off the range cars but fine for you have sir in your 718 so please buy

cmoose

43,065 posts

165 months

Saturday 24th February
quotequote all
DuncGTS said:
You keep on salting and coming out with all sort of silly things
Silly things. Blinkered. What are all these silly and blinkered things I am posting? Again, so easy to cast such aspersions. So little credibility to anything you post. You never back anything up, you just post trash talk. It's unpleasant and cheap.

DuncGTS

91 posts

42 months

Saturday 24th February
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cmoose said:
Silly things. Blinkered. What are all these silly and blinkered things I am posting? Again, so easy to cast such aspersions. So little credibility to anything you post. You never back anything up, you just post trash talk. It's unpleasant and cheap.
No need to 're post it all as you only need to go back a page or two to read all the for and against
But NO one on here knows what is going on as its all just talk and until Porsche release something that is all it ever will be

The only thing i do know, is that the test mule I saw and heard was turbo charged, what that test mule was is anybody's guess but it was 100% not NA