718 GTS Road Tests
Discussion
dreamcar said:
Correct. Even if it had a turbo flat six, as it sounds and drives great in the 991/2. And I would certainly be one as there are a number of improvements over the 981. If Porsche had brought out a 718 GTS with the same flat six engine, even without a power increase, by now I would have probably ordered one. But for me, and I suspect many others the undoubted improvements are completely ruined by the... let’s be kind.... controversial - engine. I have my solution though, keeping my 981 BGTS, knowing that it cannot be replaced with anything that appeals.
Why 'lets be kind...'? It's not controversial, its just not a NASP F6 (and much the better for it for a number of reasons). You don't like the concept, fair enough, that doesn't men the F4 engine isn't very good.Edited by dreamcar on Saturday 9th December 11:36
Edited by Porsche718S on Saturday 9th December 13:00
Prestonese said:
Porsche718S said:
You’ve missed the point.
Maybe I have but I don't see why you couldn't buy into an Alpine coming from a 981? It seems like many owners of 981s don't want to get into a 718 as it doesn't offer the things which matter to them even though it's packaged by the same manufacturer. The things which the 718 does offer which is different to the 981 don't seem to be priorities for 981 owners. A key difference in the Alpine is weight and chassis development which is a big step from what Porsche currently offers. I'm of the view that if you swap cars it doesn't seem logical to go for something which gives the same or similar experience. Why waste money on a same experience. At least with the Alpine it's something different to a 981. 4 cylinders aside the key differences like weight seems to be something positive. However, many 981 owners don't seem to regard the differences of the 718 in the same light. That's why I don't think it's petulant if they did swap to an Alpine.
That's the story I'm sticking to anyway!
I like the idea of trying new things. But that aside for the moment, why spend money on a car that has the same inherent issues as the updated version of your own? Surely in this instance you'd head in a completely different direction? Smacks of 'Porsche won't make the car the way I want it so I'll go buy the same interpretation from elsewhere', hence the connotation of petulance.
Swapping to the Alpine for a different experience and a change is fair enough, I'm driving at swapping to one in preference to a 718 when getting out of a 981 given the criticisms the 718 has received.
Porsche718S said:
Without wishing this to sound rude (because that's honestly not my intent), I don't care if you or anyone else likes the 718 or not, or that you don't want one. I'm just observing the principal reasons for the apparent dislike not being similar differentiators on the Alpine? Apparently turbo lag and (in this case a familiar) 4-cylinder noise are now 'character' and can be excused on the basis of history, novelty and because the rest of the car is apparently good!?
This forum seems to (want to?) interpret 718 owners offering a different view of 718 as them trying to justify why they prefer something that is universally not liked or is not very good. That's a shame and is the reason I'm not around here that much (or many other very happy 718 owners for that matter). I'm not here to justify my 718 purchase, I'm here for a reasoned discussion amongst fellow minded car enthusiasts - the problem is no one can (or is prepared?) do that with the 718 because they simply can't get past the fact it has a F4 and sounds different. That's OK, I don't want or need to convince people who have decided they don't like it to like it, but I will discuss statements pertaining to stated qualities of the drivetrain that are not subjective and perhaps incorrect, uninformed or that I might not agree with.
FWIW, I do enjoy my 718, its the best car I have owned. But I still question why the principal reasons for people not liking the 718 are apparently not reasons to critique the new Alpine in a similar vein? Its really not a question of whether people like the 718 or not...
Totally agree with you... This forum seems to (want to?) interpret 718 owners offering a different view of 718 as them trying to justify why they prefer something that is universally not liked or is not very good. That's a shame and is the reason I'm not around here that much (or many other very happy 718 owners for that matter). I'm not here to justify my 718 purchase, I'm here for a reasoned discussion amongst fellow minded car enthusiasts - the problem is no one can (or is prepared?) do that with the 718 because they simply can't get past the fact it has a F4 and sounds different. That's OK, I don't want or need to convince people who have decided they don't like it to like it, but I will discuss statements pertaining to stated qualities of the drivetrain that are not subjective and perhaps incorrect, uninformed or that I might not agree with.
FWIW, I do enjoy my 718, its the best car I have owned. But I still question why the principal reasons for people not liking the 718 are apparently not reasons to critique the new Alpine in a similar vein? Its really not a question of whether people like the 718 or not...
Sports car aren’t bought on simple, rational black & white decisions ortherwise we’ll be driving the same cars. People have signed up for the Alpine though the 718 and previously enjoyed 981s are available.
One day I will drive the Alpine and as you say the turbo 4 my leave me with the same feeling as the 718. In which case it won’t be one to be considered for the future.
It doesn’t simply come down to both being T4’s so they’ll sound the same. It’s not so much that I don’t like the sound of a T4, I really don’t like the sound of the F4T. The Alpine’s 4 my sound better, acceptable along with a great driving experience. I’ve seen the car and sat in it. The potential is there. As I’ve said though, I don’t see me moving on from my 981 CS any time soon.
Porsche718S said:
Prestonese said:
Porsche718S said:
You’ve missed the point.
Maybe I have but I don't see why you couldn't buy into an Alpine coming from a 981? It seems like many owners of 981s don't want to get into a 718 as it doesn't offer the things which matter to them even though it's packaged by the same manufacturer. The things which the 718 does offer which is different to the 981 don't seem to be priorities for 981 owners. A key difference in the Alpine is weight and chassis development which is a big step from what Porsche currently offers. I'm of the view that if you swap cars it doesn't seem logical to go for something which gives the same or similar experience. Why waste money on a same experience. At least with the Alpine it's something different to a 981. 4 cylinders aside the key differences like weight seems to be something positive. However, many 981 owners don't seem to regard the differences of the 718 in the same light. That's why I don't think it's petulant if they did swap to an Alpine.
That's the story I'm sticking to anyway!
I like the idea of trying new things. But that aside for the moment, why spend money on a car that has the same inherent issues as the updated version of your own? Surely in this instance you'd head in a completely different direction? Smacks of 'Porsche won't make the car the way I want it so I'll go buy the same interpretation from elsewhere', hence the connotation of petulance.
Swapping to the Alpine for a different experience and a change is fair enough, I'm driving at swapping to one in preference to a 718 when getting out of a 981 given the criticisms the 718 has received.
so porsche put a turbo on the engine , massive torque and useable everyday. can have fun at all rev range and then people complain about the sound.
You always have people picking something to complain.
I agree that if manufactuer don’t make the car i want anymore i move to one which does, in my case i owned E92 335i( perfect car IMO) for 6 years, bought a 435i ( horrible compared to the old one- it was bigger, steering was rubbish and the steering wheel size was like coffee table size, power delivery on N55 was bad compare to my old n54)
Maxym said:
I keep wondering about a GT4... It's a great car no question but is it really worth it - to me - spend 30+ grand to change? If there were no GT4 I'd be thoroughly content with my CGTS.
Having driven a GT4 at PEC, to answer this exact question, I decided it wasn't worth the £30k to change unless you do a lot of track days. The cars don't feel massively different at roads speeds - the GT4 is a bit firmer all round that's all. When seriously pressing on you can appreciate the GT4's increased abilities but how often can you do that on the road? The interior is identical to a GTS, bar the LWB option, so no benefit there either.If you don't go on track the only reason to change to a GT4 is if you can easily afford the extra cost and/or you want the extra attention a rear wing gives you i.e. you're a poseur.
Pinball said:
Just been watching the autocar review of the Alpine. More turbo lag than the 718, gearbox not as good, steering not as good, little difference in noise. That said having seen it driving around in a video it’s a nice looking car.
I must admit if I had to choose between an Alpine or a 718 I’d choose the 718. In typical Porsche fashion - liking the engine or not - it’s a more thoroughly developed, better engineered car. Porsche718S said:
Why 'lets be kind...'? It's not controversial, its just not a NASP F6 (and much the better for it for a number of reasons). You don't like the concept, fair enough, that doesn't men the F4 engine isn't very good.
It’s not just me or others here that dislike the flat four - nearly all the road tests on 718 slate the engine as well The only advantage the flat four has is low down torque and a bit more power. Quantity over quality I’m afraid. So me describing it as “controversial” is a more than fair comment IMO.Edited by Porsche718S on Saturday 9th December 13:00
dreamcar said:
Porsche718S said:
Why 'lets be kind...'? It's not controversial, its just not a NASP F6 (and much the better for it for a number of reasons). You don't like the concept, fair enough, that doesn't men the F4 engine isn't very good.
It’s not just me or others here that dislike the flat four - nearly all the road tests on 718 slate the engine as well The only advantage the flat four has is low down torque and a bit more power. Quantity over quality I’m afraid. So me describing it as “controversial” is a more than fair comment IMO.Edited by Porsche718S on Saturday 9th December 13:00
dreamcar said:
It’s not just me or others here that dislike the flat four - nearly all the road tests on 718 slate the engine as well The only advantage the flat four has is low down torque and a bit more power. Quantity over quality I’m afraid. So me describing it as “controversial” is a more than fair comment IMO.
You shouldn't just write whatever you want on the internet and present it as fact to justify your own opinion, it really doesn't help the discussion. The truth is that the only attribute of the engine that has been widely criticised is the sound, importantly, in comparison to the 981 F6. Nowhere has it's sound been judged on merit alone aside from a few informative, extensive, but non-mainstream reviews on Youtube (that most seem to conveniently ignore).
Porsche718S said:
The truth is that the only attribute of the engine that has been widely criticised is the sound, importantly, in comparison to the 981 F6.
Throttle response has too, certainly here on PH. Not unique to the 718, but to turbo engines in general, but it's up there with the sound as worse on the 718 compared to the 981 for me. I don't like the "rubber band/elastic" feeling of it.Twinfan said:
Throttle response has too, certainly here on PH. Not unique to the 718, but to turbo engines in general, but it's up there with the sound as worse on the 718 compared to the 981 for me. I don't like the "rubber band/elastic" feeling of it.
Hmmmm...I can't question someone else's feel in the car, but there is no rubber band/elastic feeling in my S at all...the response is instant (unless your lugging from very low revs (<1500rpm) in too-higher gear (6/7), which the torque will ultimately allow you to do and gives rise the 'rush of power' feeling as it comes on boost). I'm sure goofing around could exaggerate this feeling even more. I've done over 6000 miles in mine now, I do a 144 mile round-trip every week in it in addition to all the usual driving about and fun stuff we all get up to and interestingly, the excellent response and power delivery of the engine are two of the stand out features for me.
That said, it's never going to be as pin sharp as the best NASP engines.
Pinball said:
Just been watching the autocar review of the Alpine. More turbo lag than the 718, gearbox not as good, steering not as good, little difference in noise. That said having seen it driving around in a video it’s a nice looking car.
Fair point - but it's pretty obvious that the fun he derives from driving the car - and hence Autocars 5 star rating - completely transends that. Other reports rate the steering as good or better and think it has a much nicer noise , and while not so obviously besotted by the car, rate it very highly, some clearly preferring it to the 718. Having heard both cars the Alpine is (for me) in a different league for noise. Lag concerns me greatly - but the off boost torque is a much much higher percentage of the on boost torque (look at the torque curves from 1000 rpm ) so while the lag may be greater (which surprizes me) it does not necessarily mean the impact is greater. That said it is something that I will measure when I get to drive the car (easy enough as the PE has a boost gauge)At the end of the day it depends on whether you want a car to admire or love. The 981 is a terrific car and (objectively) the best sports car I have ever owned - but I loved driving the Elise and Caterham more. I somehow feel I might love the Alpine in a way that I don't the 981S.
This is what Matt Prior said in the summary of his article:
"Would you get out of your Porsche 718 Cayman for one, though? That, I suppose, is the question. The Porsche will be quieter, it has better gearbox response and there’s no argument that the Cayman has - especially with a limited-slip differential – its own compelling version of adjustable mid-engined poise.
But I think the A110 – and I didn’t expect to be writing this – has yet more ability again. It must be the reduced inertia, the reduction in mass and the utter honesty of its passive suspension and low, central centre of gravity that make it one of the most intuitive, rewarding cars on sale at any price.
Sometimes you drive a sports car – a Ferrari 458 Speciale, McLaren P1, Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 or Ariel Nomad – and know that, somehow, you’re driving a landmark car. That’s the kind of feeling – even without considering the bravery of Renault to push the button on making it – the A110 gives me. Perhaps it really will be the start of something big. But even if it isn’t, the A110 is truly, wonderfully, special."
You simply won't get a more ringing endorsement of ANY car than that.
"Would you get out of your Porsche 718 Cayman for one, though? That, I suppose, is the question. The Porsche will be quieter, it has better gearbox response and there’s no argument that the Cayman has - especially with a limited-slip differential – its own compelling version of adjustable mid-engined poise.
But I think the A110 – and I didn’t expect to be writing this – has yet more ability again. It must be the reduced inertia, the reduction in mass and the utter honesty of its passive suspension and low, central centre of gravity that make it one of the most intuitive, rewarding cars on sale at any price.
Sometimes you drive a sports car – a Ferrari 458 Speciale, McLaren P1, Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 or Ariel Nomad – and know that, somehow, you’re driving a landmark car. That’s the kind of feeling – even without considering the bravery of Renault to push the button on making it – the A110 gives me. Perhaps it really will be the start of something big. But even if it isn’t, the A110 is truly, wonderfully, special."
You simply won't get a more ringing endorsement of ANY car than that.
Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 10th December 09:12
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