Dealer Prices Increased For 981 CGTS - Reaction To 718 GTS?

[Twinfan]

Indeed - depends if you need parking sensors, nav etc. Quite important on DD's these days!

[bcr5784]

Milnsey said:

Even a basic spec GTS still a very pleasant place to be, not exactly a Ford Anglia!

Regretably not a mid spec Seat Ibiza though - no blue tooth, auto wipers, folding mirrors, parking sensors, multifunctional steering wheel, cruise control, isofix !

[bo duke]

bcr5784 said:

If you really want all that stuff, then buy a GTS . But if you are a more level headed buyer you'd have to ask yourself whether you'd pay much (anything?) for some of it. And some of it - like alcantara gearlever and wheel (and for me 20" wheels, Sports exhaust, though many will take a different view ) you might prefer not to have. Personally there is only PASM and the sports wheel (not in alcantara) that I would choose anyway.

That’s my point really, most S will be lower spec’d, and if you are the type to want something approaching GTS spec, you could be waiting a really long time.
That said, any S is a fantastic car/nice place to be.

[Heathrow]

JasonSteel said:

i've read this a few times on various threads but nobody has ever managed to show an actual example of this.

so let's say the average price of a GTS is £60k (around the same as this time last year). this one at OPC Wolverhampton is closest to that price:

2015 car
15,942 miles

optional equipment:

20-inch Carrera S wheels
Adaptive Sports seats Plus (18-way, electric)
Bi-Xenon-Headlights incl. Porsche Dynamic Light System Plus (PDLS+) with dynamic high beam
Black GTS exterior package
Carbon interior package (with leather interior/with PDK)
Centre console trim in carbon
Electrically folding exterior mirrors
Elimination alcantara
Full colour wheel centre caps
Guards Red seat belts
Guards red instrument dials
Light design package
Mobile phone preparation
Multifunction steering wheel
ParkAssist (front and rear) with reversing camera
Porsche Communication Management (PCM) including navigation module
Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
Porsche Torque Vectoring (PTV) incl. mechanically locking rear differential
Rear Wiper
Rooflining in Alcantara
Seat heating
Smoking package
Sound Package Plus
Speed limit display
Steering wheel heating
Wheels painted in satin black (complete)

now here are the 2 cars from OPCs closest to £45k:

car no.1

mileage 9300
2013 car (yes, 5 years old)

optional equipment:

20-inch Carrera Classic wheel (vs Carrera S in platinum)
Floor mats (i know, this is a big one)
ParkAssist rear
Porsche Communication Management (PCM) including navigation module with universal audio interface
Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
Rear wiper
Seat heating
Sound Package Plus
SportDesign steering wheel
Sports seats Plus (2-way, electric)
Top tinted windscreen
Wheel Caps (another biggie)

car no. 2 (£45,500)
2016 car
20,438 miles

optional equipment:

20-inch 911 Turbo wheels
BOSE® surround sound-system
Mobile phone preparation
Multifunction steering wheel
ParkAssist (front and rear)
Porsche Communication Management (PCM) including navigation module
Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
Seat heating
Smoking package
Two-zone automatic climate control

and that's it. no body style upgrades, no extra power, no PASM/X73, no sport chrono, no alcantara, no GTS packs, no sports seats and no dynamic headlights, all of which are standard on the GTS. the £45k S'es available are pretty much basic spec cars.

nothing wrong with a base spec S at all by the way but it shows that there is no way you can get an S with an "almost identical spec" as a GTS for £15k less.

I'm going on my own experience of speccing/buying a 981S in Jul 2015 which I sold on in Jan 2017 for around 47k. Manual, PASM, PTV, Chrono, PSE, extended leather etc. etc. Mileage was well under 10,000. These cars do exist - but be quick when they turn up!

I don't have enough experience in the GTS to compare power and exhaust noise. I can say that the PSE in the Cayman S was more exuberant than the GT4 on a closed throttle but otherwise they sound pretty similar, if anything the GT4 is very very marginally quieter with PSE on. Clearly anecdotal rather than scientific.

[bo duke]

Heathrow - out of interest, why did you pick an S over a GTS (given the spec you went for)?

[bcr5784]

I know you didn't ask me, but since I also chose an S over a GTS I'll chip in.

1) Didn't want 20" wheels - spoils the ride with no dynamic advantage. The ONLY reason for choosing the larger wheels is aesthetics - and I've never understood this passion for cotton reel wheels

2) Didn't want PSE - the way the pops and bangs are generated offends my engineering sensibilities and, as it happens, the exhaust is noisier with PSE off which I don't want (but that bit is with the benefit of hindsight)

3) Didn't want the extended bodywork - it reduces ground clearance significantly for no functional (or to me aesthetic) advantage.

4) The only advantage of Sport Chrono for me are the dynamic engine mounts - but then only on track,and I choose something else to track. As it happens the dynamic engine mounts seem a bit unreliable, so, with hindsight it was probably a good move.

Once you take those big ticket items off the GTS no longer looked such a good buy. Of course those who bought a GTS will (rightly) tell you that the much better residuals have actually made a GTS more financially attractive. While that is true for those who bought new, whether that will be true if you buy secondhand now is much more debatable. I personally doubt that a 10-15k advantage will be maintained in the medium term - but I may well be wrong.

[Twinfan]

Just to clarify - on a Cayman we have dynamic gearbox mounts only. I think the 911 gets both dynamic engine and gearbox mounts

[bcr5784]

Twinfan said:

Just to clarify - on a Cayman we have dynamic gearbox mounts only. I think the 911 gets both dynamic engine and gearbox mounts

They are both called engine mounts (by Porsche) - to be strict as you say they are actually on the gearbox on the Cayster - but only just aft of the cylinders - so their function is to support the engine.

[Twinfan]

bcr5784 said:

They are both called engine mounts (by Porsche) - to be strict as you say they are actually on the gearbox on the Cayster - but only just aft of the cylinders - so their function is to support the engine.

[Heathrow]

bo duke said:

Heathrow - out of interest, why did you pick an S over a GTS (given the spec you went for)?

Couple of reasons. At the time I was quoted a 9 month waiting list by the OPC which I thought was excessive. I also wasn't keen on the 20 inch alloys having had a couple of test drives. Not so much because of the ride as there is a polish to the PASM damping which makes the car very useable day to day(although the 19s are even better for this), the issue I had was more because of the tyre roar. NVH isn't the best in the 981 Cayman and I had planned the car to be a daily.

[JasonSteel]

bcr5784 said:

Of course those who bought a GTS will (rightly) tell you that the much better residuals have actually made a GTS more financially attractive. While that is true for those who bought new, whether that will be true if you buy secondhand now is much more debatable.

i didn't know anything about Porsches when i got mine and when i made my mind up to go for a Cayman i decided to go for an S. But when i saw, sat in and test drove a GTS i knew i wanted one because first and foremost the whole package was, for me, even more to my liking than an S. i like, no actually, i love the sport design package, sports chassis, manual box and bucket seats, together with all the things that differentiate the GTS.

do i think that everyone wants those options? of course not but there was no S available at the time with them and i haven't seen one since. going by what i've seen so far i'd be surprised if i saw one at any time in the future.

bcr5784 said:

I personally doubt that a 10-15k advantage will be maintained in the medium term - but I may well be wrong.

another reference to the "10-15k" premium. still no actual examples though...

my example above shows that for 15k less you get a 5yr old base S model.

bcr5784 said:

If you really want all that stuff, then buy a GTS . But if you are a more level headed buyer you'd have to ask yourself whether you'd pay much (anything?) for some of it.

so you're level headed because you bought an S.

i'm... reckless(?) because i went for a GTS?

you made the decision that was right for you and i made the one that was right to me. surely you don't really think your choice was more level headed than mine?

[JasonSteel]

Heathrow said:

I'm going on my own experience of speccing/buying a 981S in Jul 2015 which I sold on in Jan 2017 for around 47k.

speccing from new is a different thing though. if anything it was even more of a clear cut decision in that case as a brand new GTS was cheaper than an equivalently specced S.

but again if you didn't want the 20" wheels or some of the other stuff you made the decision that was right for you.

[bcr5784]

JasonSteel said:

i'm... reckless(?) because i went for a GTS?

you made the decision that was right for you and i made the one that was right to me. surely you don't really think your choice was more level headed than mine?

I took six months looking for a car - and still didn't get ALL the things I wanted on an S - you have to make compromises if you buy secondhand.

"Level Headed"? I could not conceive of using the word "love" relative to a car - so perhaps I'm far less emotionally driven than you.

[Adam190]

I took 3 months to find my 981S. Didn't get the exact spec off the shelf but managed to find a car where the other extras could be retro fitted.

PCM
Nav
Carrera S Wheels
Sports Chrono
PDK
PASM
Bluetooth
PDLS
BOSE
Sports Design Wheel
Sports Seats Plus
Heated Seats
Full Leather Dash and Doors
Park Assist Front and Rear
Guards Red Seat Belts
Porsche Wheel Crests
£13,380

Retrofit
PSE
Cruise

So around about £15k in extras. If I was to do it all again I probably would wait to go GTS, as they seem to be holding their value better but as everyone is saying its hard to price a well spec'd S as they don't come up very often.

Either way I love it, best car I have owned by far. Puts a massive smile on my face where ever I go

Edited by Adam190 on Wednesday 10th January 19:00

[bcr5784]

Adam190 said:

I took 3 months to find my 981S. Didn't get the exact spec off the shelf but managed to find a car where the other extras could be retro fitted.

PCM
Nav
Carrera S Wheels
Sports Chrono
PDK
PASM
Bluetooth
PDLS
BOSE
Sports Design Wheel
Sports Seats Plus
Heated Seats
Full Leather Dash and Doors
Park Assist Front and Rear
Guards Red Seat Belts
Porsche Wheel Crests
£13,380

Retrofit
PSE
Cruise

So around about £15k in extras. If I was to do it all again I probably would wait to go GTS, as they seem to be holding their value better but as everyone is saying its hard to price a well spec'd S as they don't come up very often.

Would have bought that car too (at the right price) . Wouldn't want the wheels (but sell well secondhand) none of the others are offensive (to me) and (inevitably - as on my own car) things I wouldn't have paid good money for new. PTV is the only option that seems hard to find (without other stuff you'd rather not pay for)

[bo duke]

Heathrow said:

bo duke said:

Heathrow - out of interest, why did you pick an S over a GTS (given the spec you went for)?

Couple of reasons. At the time I was quoted a 9 month waiting list by the OPC which I thought was excessive. I also wasn't keen on the 20 inch alloys having had a couple of test drives. Not so much because of the ride as there is a polish to the PASM damping which makes the car very useable day to day(although the 19s are even better for this), the issue I had was more because of the tyre roar. NVH isn't the best in the 981 Cayman and I had planned the car to be a daily.

Cheers Heathrow, I can understand not wanting to wait, and the NVH thing. The GTS on 20" wheels is a magic carpet ride compared to my old 996T (which is why I love the 981s), but it does get noisy on concrete motorways. Would be interested in hearing one on 19" wheels now, I guess Id just assumed that all cars with a decent amount of rubber under them were noisy on bad surfaces. The 996T was slightly noisier I think, and my previous 350Z (on 18s as I remember) was noisier again, and on almost all surfaces not just concrete (I'd put it down to the lack of back seat sound deadening). I ended up trying different tyres to bring down the noise on the 350Z (Bridgestones seemed much better than Pirellis on that score).

[Heathrow]

bo duke said:

Cheers Heathrow, I can understand not wanting to wait, and the NVH thing. The GTS on 20" wheels is a magic carpet ride compared to my old 996T (which is why I love the 981s), but it does get noisy on concrete motorways. Would be interested in hearing one on 19" wheels now, I guess Id just assumed that all cars with a decent amount of rubber under them were noisy on bad surfaces. The 996T was slightly noisier I think, and my previous 350Z (on 18s as I remember) was noisier again, and on almost all surfaces not just concrete (I'd put it down to the lack of back seat sound deadening). I ended up trying different tyres to bring down the noise on the 350Z (Bridgestones seemed much better than Pirellis on that score).

Having now lived with both a GT4 and the CS previously, the difference isn't quite the deal breaker I remembered on the test drive, so probably would have opted for the GTS if I had the choice again as I doubt the wait would have been as long as 9 months in the end. Good point about tyres, was never a big fan of the P-Zeros that the car came with but didn't get the chance to try anything else before I sold the car. By way of comparison, driving a 991 back-to-back and there is a massive amount more rear sound proofing in big brother, and also you are that little bit further removed in distance from the engine and exhaust. The downside being you get less induction/engine/exhaust noise in the cabin.

[bo duke]

Heathrow said:

Having now lived with both a GT4 and the CS previously, the difference isn't quite the deal breaker I remembered on the test drive, so probably would have opted for the GTS if I had the choice again as I doubt the wait would have been as long as 9 months in the end. Good point about tyres, was never a big fan of the P-Zeros that the car came with but didn't get the chance to try anything else before I sold the car. By way of comparison, driving a 991 back-to-back and there is a massive amount more rear sound proofing in big brother, and also you are that little bit further removed in distance from the engine and exhaust. The downside being you get less induction/engine/exhaust noise in the cabin.

I'm not a fan of P-zeros either - Ive had them on a few cars but always found them a bit noisy, and easily bested in the wet - like the compound is too hard. They are a normally a lot cheaper than the Michelin PS tyres though that everyone rates on 911s. I tend to gravitate to Bridgestone Potenzas, as they aren't too expensive or loud, and feel reassuring in the wet.

911-wise, I wanted a Carrera 2S when I bought the 996T, but was scared off by the 997 engine issues. Then had a couple of 991.1s as loaners and they left me cold - a bit TOO refined/GT-esque for my taste. Ive since driven 991.2s though (with the later turbo engine) on 2 Prescott Porsche track days, and they were my favourite cars of the day - really crisp handling, and more exciting than even the 718s there (which were also great fun, but had a bit less poke/more lag). Was never sure if its a track vs road thing though, or whether they injected a bit more chutzpah into the 991.2s. Will be really interesting to blag one as a loaner, and see how it compares to the 981.

Edited by bo duke on Thursday 11th January 10:17

[MM57]

I drove a 991.2 911 GTS (PCCB as it happens) at PEC last year for 90 mins or so, thinking it would be a huge mistake in that getting back into my 981 CGTS (non-PCCB) would make it seem a very lowly cousin.

However, although the 991.2 was completely capable in almost every respect, pretty quick, and probably a bit different on real roads rather than the fairly wide open PEC circuits, getting back into the 981 CGTS was not a letdown in any way or form. The 991.2 GTS just didn't wow me.

During the PEC session I discussed the potential (and costly, for me) upgrade from 981 CGTS to 991.2 GTS with the "instructor". Expecting the corporate answer of "the 911 is a totally different car, of course it's worth it etc", his view was actually "the 981 CGTS is going to become a classic Porsche, for good reasons, and if I were you, I'd stick with it"

[Spydermonkey]

Lots of talk of high spec'd S' getting good prices. I'm in the dilemma at the moment whereby I have a well spec'd S (would like a GTS but not in love with the 718) and not sure if I should retrofit the X73 suspension kit?

Its £2,200 to retrofit, would I see a return on any of this if I sold the car on?