718 GT4 limited again?
Discussion
Holgate86 said:
What I've never got with this whole limited run GT car allocation business is why would you sell a product at £150k when it's "worth" £250k on the flipped car market. Surely it would be better to make an extra £100k on each car as a manufacturer and kill the "flip" market, if the car is so popular used values would still hold up.
I think if they were readily available they wouldn't sell for £250k, and the marketing value of them being seen as too cheap/aspirational/limited supply/hard to obtain is worth a lot for the Porsche brand as a whole.It's very clever and in Porsche's interests to produce just the right amount of cars to maintain the halo effect.
Twinfan said:
GRD_72 said:
The PEC invitations are initiated from Porsche UK and not the dealer, as such it seems my name must be properly in the system.
Are you sure? When I enquired about one a couple of years ago I was told to contact my dealer to trigger the request, or something similar. Unless it goes OPC -> Porsche GB -> PEC but then Porsche GB would need to confirm an actual order is in place, surely?However if the car you are buying is already in the system for the dealer, and you are simply taking over the slot, then the dealer needs to get the PEC slot assigned over to you. I think....
Edited by GRD_72 on Monday 11th January 13:58
bcr5784 said:
Rojibo said:
There was some spiel on them being limited due to the margins being much smaller than the regular cooking models, "they're selling these cars at a loss, don't you know". How much I believe that, I'm not sure.
Complete BS I AM sure
Edited by Rojibo on Monday 11th January 14:09
GRD_72 said:
That’s what was explained when I bought a Macan S, OPC uploads the order (just with default spec), it processed by PUK, they send out the PEC invite, then OPC update the order prior to lockdown date.
However if the car you are buying is already in the system for the dealer, and you are simply taking over the slot, then the dealer needs to get the PEC slot assigned over to you. I think....
That makes sense. I just think it's odd you haven't submitted a spec, even just a placeholder one. You need to have a chat with your SA I think However if the car you are buying is already in the system for the dealer, and you are simply taking over the slot, then the dealer needs to get the PEC slot assigned over to you. I think....
Twinfan said:
I think if they were readily available they wouldn't sell for £250k, and the marketing value of them being seen as too cheap/aspirational/limited supply/hard to obtain is worth a lot for the Porsche brand as a whole.
It's very clever and in Porsche's interests to produce just the right amount of cars to maintain the halo effect.
If it's "worth" anything over the current list then It's very clever and in Porsche's interests to produce just the right amount of cars to maintain the halo effect.
1) Porsche would make more profit by putting the price up to whatever an unlimited production would stand - probably nothing like as much as flipped prices as you say.
2) You wouldn't p
s off the 95% of Porsche owners who aren't "special".So I think the negatives to Porsche are probably greater than the positives - there's plenty of antipathy to the approach on here. The only real gainers are the flippers.
bcr5784 said:
1) Porsche would make more profit by putting the price up to whatever an unlimited production would stand - probably nothing like as much as flipped prices as you say.
Didn't they do this with the Speedster? As in, put the prices up to a healthy margin and take the margin away from the flippers? bcr5784 said:
2) You wouldn't ps off the 95% of Porsche owners who aren't "special".
The vast majority of Porsche owners don’t want a GT car, they have limited appeal outside enthusiasts circles, hence limited numbers produced, if everyone who wanted one could walk into a OPC and order one values would drop like a stone and adversely affect perceived brand value, which is far more important that current sales figures.
s off the 95% of Porsche owners who aren't "special".The vast majority of Porsche owners don’t want a GT car, they have limited appeal outside enthusiasts circles, hence limited numbers produced, if everyone who wanted one could walk into a OPC and order one values would drop like a stone and adversely affect perceived brand value, which is far more important that current sales figures.
Twinfan said:
ChrisW. said:
I completely agree with your logic if you wish to maximise profits in the good times. But there were not always good times and I bought my first new Porsche in 1979 ... but only four since then.
If I had bought five times as many from five different dealers would that make me an inferior customer ? As it happens, I haven't.
But as a Porsche enthusiast with PCGB and giving passenger rides on track I must have created many sales .. Porsche can please themselves how choosey they are ... and I can please my self how critical i am of them. I am not asking for a discount ...
In the longer term I believe that they are being very short-shighted ... and I will continue to say so ... unless something changes.
Just look at all the flipped cars ....
I think the difference is you're looking at Porsche as a whole, whereas GT car allocations are specific to each OPC. The bottom line is that there are more buyers than cars so each OPC chooses who gets them and they'll go to people they know.If I had bought five times as many from five different dealers would that make me an inferior customer ? As it happens, I haven't.
But as a Porsche enthusiast with PCGB and giving passenger rides on track I must have created many sales .. Porsche can please themselves how choosey they are ... and I can please my self how critical i am of them. I am not asking for a discount ...
In the longer term I believe that they are being very short-shighted ... and I will continue to say so ... unless something changes.
Just look at all the flipped cars ....
I agree it would be great if you could just walk in and order a GT3RS but it's never going to happen again. The GT car 'brand' has changed susbstantially since the 996 generation.
The fact that so many cars are rarely driven / flipped / has only worked whilst the cars didn't follow a conventional depreciation curve. If you look at the number of GT cars now in the market and the fact that later cars are no longer holding their overs, the historical supply / demand driver that has driven all the investment "overs" may easily reverse.
If it does, how low may they go ?
The only offset could be significant increases in the cost of new cars ... a double edged blade. Just look at the value coming out of Toyota who also want a part of the GT market ?
It will be very interesting to see how the GR brand develops ..
Selling at the price that gives alot more people the opportunity to own 1.
At 100k with some cut backs and selling cars and bikes i could afford one. At 250k no chance.
I could buy a rental property and return 1k a month for that money.
Jees i panic leaving my car at present and that costs alot less than 250k
At 100k with some cut backs and selling cars and bikes i could afford one. At 250k no chance.
I could buy a rental property and return 1k a month for that money.
Jees i panic leaving my car at present and that costs alot less than 250k
Edited by tedblog on Tuesday 12th January 10:45
ChrisW. said:
You may be right ... we shall have to see.
The fact that so many cars are rarely driven / flipped / has only worked whilst the cars didn't follow a conventional depreciation curve. If you look at the number of GT cars now in the market and the fact that later cars are no longer holding their overs, the historical supply / demand driver that has driven all the investment "overs" may easily reverse.
If it does, how low may they go ?
The only offset could be significant increases in the cost of new cars ... a double edged blade. Just look at the value coming out of Toyota who also want a part of the GT market ?
It will be very interesting to see how the GR brand develops ..
Very good points and I think there will be many smaller companies looking at the Toyota Yaris Gr and thinking could we do it, But bear in mind the Yaris is almost and accidental car . What we need is a return to homologation by production to compete in BTTC / Rally events and then we can have the likes of the Volvo T5, Mondeo, Cavalier, etc plus the Sccobies , Evos, Toyotas again as people want to clearly drive what others need to produce to race. Could you imagine road versions of some of the roads cars we could get like a VW CC , BMW 3 series etc and from the rally stages such as VW Polo, Hyundais, Skodas and the rest that give these smaller brands a big lift in kudos in the showroomThe fact that so many cars are rarely driven / flipped / has only worked whilst the cars didn't follow a conventional depreciation curve. If you look at the number of GT cars now in the market and the fact that later cars are no longer holding their overs, the historical supply / demand driver that has driven all the investment "overs" may easily reverse.
If it does, how low may they go ?
The only offset could be significant increases in the cost of new cars ... a double edged blade. Just look at the value coming out of Toyota who also want a part of the GT market ?
It will be very interesting to see how the GR brand develops ..
I can only live in hope I guess :-)
ChrisW. said:
Twinfan said:
ChrisW. said:
I completely agree with your logic if you wish to maximise profits in the good times. But there were not always good times and I bought my first new Porsche in 1979 ... but only four since then.
If I had bought five times as many from five different dealers would that make me an inferior customer ? As it happens, I haven't.
But as a Porsche enthusiast with PCGB and giving passenger rides on track I must have created many sales .. Porsche can please themselves how choosey they are ... and I can please my self how critical i am of them. I am not asking for a discount ...
In the longer term I believe that they are being very short-shighted ... and I will continue to say so ... unless something changes.
Just look at all the flipped cars ....
I think the difference is you're looking at Porsche as a whole, whereas GT car allocations are specific to each OPC. The bottom line is that there are more buyers than cars so each OPC chooses who gets them and they'll go to people they know.If I had bought five times as many from five different dealers would that make me an inferior customer ? As it happens, I haven't.
But as a Porsche enthusiast with PCGB and giving passenger rides on track I must have created many sales .. Porsche can please themselves how choosey they are ... and I can please my self how critical i am of them. I am not asking for a discount ...
In the longer term I believe that they are being very short-shighted ... and I will continue to say so ... unless something changes.
Just look at all the flipped cars ....
I agree it would be great if you could just walk in and order a GT3RS but it's never going to happen again. The GT car 'brand' has changed susbstantially since the 996 generation.
The fact that so many cars are rarely driven / flipped / has only worked whilst the cars didn't follow a conventional depreciation curve. If you look at the number of GT cars now in the market and the fact that later cars are no longer holding their overs, the historical supply / demand driver that has driven all the investment "overs" may easily reverse.
If it does, how low may they go ?
The only offset could be significant increases in the cost of new cars ... a double edged blade. Just look at the value coming out of Toyota who also want a part of the GT market ?
It will be very interesting to see how the GR brand develops ..
Or another way to look at it 991.2 GT3’s specced up new were £130k which was the same price as a used 991.1 GT3 at the time . This time a 992 GT3 is going to be probably £30k more than than 991.2 GT3. (£150k vs £120k)
Also when 991.2 GT3’s were commanding £180k in the first six months 991.1 GT3 RS were still £200k cars. The cheapest 991.2 GT3 RS are now £170k...I just don’t see people buying 992 GT3’s for massive money over the previous RS.
Once these cars only start selling for list price is when we find out how many genuine buyers there are.
Cheib said:
I agree I think we’re at the end of the big premiums for GT cars. Look at GT3 prices....when 991.2 GT3 was launched 991.1 GT’s were £130k plus so at a premium to list. 991.2 GT3 is below list and we still haven’t had the new car launched. First flipped cars of 991.2 GT3 were £50k over list at £180k and about £40k more than 991.1 GT3.
Or another way to look at it 991.2 GT3’s specced up new were £130k which was the same price as a used 991.1 GT3 at the time . This time a 992 GT3 is going to be probably £30k more than than 991.2 GT3. (£150k vs £120k)
Also when 991.2 GT3’s were commanding £180k in the first six months 991.1 GT3 RS were still £200k cars. The cheapest 991.2 GT3 RS are now £170k...I just don’t see people buying 992 GT3’s for massive money over the previous RS.
Once these cars only start selling for list price is when we find out how many genuine buyers there are.
I think that’s right, plus over £150k is pushing into a rarified atmosphere for most people for anything they actually intend to drive regularly. If the market shifts such that a GT3 costs £150k can be used sensibly for a couple of years and then sold on with a relatively limited amount of depreciation compared to almost any other car... what’s not to like!!Or another way to look at it 991.2 GT3’s specced up new were £130k which was the same price as a used 991.1 GT3 at the time . This time a 992 GT3 is going to be probably £30k more than than 991.2 GT3. (£150k vs £120k)
Also when 991.2 GT3’s were commanding £180k in the first six months 991.1 GT3 RS were still £200k cars. The cheapest 991.2 GT3 RS are now £170k...I just don’t see people buying 992 GT3’s for massive money over the previous RS.
Once these cars only start selling for list price is when we find out how many genuine buyers there are.
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