718 Sound and Constant Whinging !

[bcr5784]

jonttt said:

I totally disagree, doing it in a 981 GTS is just sooooooo much fun, doing it in a 718 is......... not. Do it in the wet and its even less “fun” in a 718 (as with all FI engines). No matter how much people deny it I keep on stating the obvious, its physics. With a FI engine you lose an element of control / predictability that a great NA engine gives you 100% of the time no matter what the road conditions. The trickier the road conditions (whether that be technicality or weather) the more fun the 981 is and the gap to a 718 is just wider.

It's not physics, the throttle response of all modern engines is governed by the ECU - not just your right foot. Compared with engines of the past a 981 isn't that great in that department - and not significantly (if any) better that the best turbo engines once spooled up. Let's put it this way, my A110 is far more confidence inspiring in the wet than my 981S ever was, and far more fun wet or dry "despite" it's turbo engine. I suggest you try one - you may have to recalibrate your "fun" scale - most road testers (and those of us who have switched from 981s) would agree.

[anonymous-user]

bcr5784 said:

Let's put it this way, my A110 is far more confidence inspiring in the wet than my 981S ever was,

Part of that may be down to the PS4s BCR .

But I agree, more accessible torque in the twisties is great fun. The 981 was always flat at low revs. Jon, if you’re not a versatile enough driver to handle FI safely in the wet then I suggest you definitely should stick to nasp.. maybe a gt86 or mx5 would be better options ?

As for the 718 as a ‘stop gap’ car - if anything it appears current thinking is for the 718s to continue on until 2023 - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[jonttt]

But it is physics, sigh

I have driven / owned much more powerful cars than either but learned that power does not equal fun ;-)

Bottom line is I would never own a 718 but have a 981GTS as a keeper. That is opinion granted but you can;t get away from the facts re FI v NA. whether they influence you buying decision is dependent on the individual but facts is facts !

Re the renault, I’m shallow I know but I just can;t drive a car I find ugly, bland I can do in my daily’s but ugly never. Life is too short and there are too many cars.

Edited by jonttt on Sunday 28th October 15:05

[bcr5784]

jonttt said:

But it is physics, sigh


Re the renault, I’m shallow I know but I just can;t drive a car I find ugly, bland I can do in my daily’s but ugly never. Life is too short and there are too many cars.

Edited by jonttt on Sunday 28th October 15:05

Oh no it isn't!

If you find it ugly I can't argue with that. Seems to be Porsche owners thing - everyone else seems to find it very attractive, coming up to you in petrol stations, giving thumbs up - even had a couple in a Macca giving it a good eyeballing today. If you don't want to be the centre of attention then you'll be safer in a Cayman - hardly anyone took a blind bit of notice of mine.

[tedblog]

The boxster/cayman just isnt big enough to incorporate and electric motor to drive the wheels and fit a battery pack.

[dreamcar]

Schmed said:

Part of that may be down to the PS4s BCR .

But I agree, more accessible torque in the twisties is great fun. The 981 was always flat at low revs. Jon, if you’re not a versatile enough driver to handle FI safely in the wet then I suggest you definitely should stick to nasp.. maybe a gt86 or mx5 would be better options ?

As for the 718 as a ‘stop gap’ car - if anything it appears current thinking is for the 718s to continue on until 2023 - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

All new Cayster normally appears around 12-18 months after the all new 911. 992 is due out this autumn so 718 replacement should follow no later than Spring 2020. 718 is a heavily revised 981, not an all new model.

Edited by dreamcar on Sunday 28th October 17:00

[jonttt]

tedblog said:

The boxster/cayman just isnt big enough to incorporate and electric motor to drive the wheels and fit a battery pack.

So they will make it bigger, they always do. I’d put good money on the next gen Cayster being hybrid tech ;-)

[jonttt]

bcr5784 said:

jonttt said:

But it is physics, sigh


Re the renault, I’m shallow I know but I just can;t drive a car I find ugly, bland I can do in my daily’s but ugly never. Life is too short and there are too many cars.

Edited by jonttt on Sunday 28th October 15:05

Oh no it isn't!

If you find it ugly I can't argue with that. Seems to be Porsche owners thing - everyone else seems to find it very attractive, coming up to you in petrol stations, giving thumbs up - even had a couple in a Macca giving it a good eyeballing today. If you don't want to be the centre of attention then you'll be safer in a Cayman - hardly anyone took a blind bit of notice of mine.

Oh yes it is (we could go on days but this is not opinion its fact based on physics no matter how much you protest)

The only way you can get around it is to limit torque ie as the turbo was originally designed to give better MPG...... but that kind of defeats the object in a sports car

I’ve never driven but I know Renault have not change the laws of physics. It may suffer less turbo lag than a 718, I have no idea but it will suffer from it to some degree. Its the basis of the whole ethos as to why Porsche resisted going FI for as long as they could until legislation made it impossible.

Hybrid tech will be the game changer to that (but they will still sound sh!t relative to a good NA engine, again its physics)

There is no turbo that does not suffer to some degree from lag until.......... hybrid lol

Edited by jonttt on Sunday 28th October 21:14

[bcr5784]

jonttt said:

Oh yes it is (we could go on days but this is not opinion its fact based on physics no matter how much you protest)

The only way you can get around it is to limit torque ie as the turbo was originally designed to give better MPG...... but that kind of defeats the object in a sports car

I’ve never driven but I know Renault have not change the laws of physics. It may suffer less turbo lag than a 718, I have no idea but it will suffer from it to some degree. Its the basis of the whole ethos as to why Porsche resisted going FI for as long as they could until legislation made it impossible.

Hybrid tech will be the game changer to that (but they will still sound sh!t relative to a good NA engine, again its physics)

There is no turbo that does not suffer to some degree from lag until.......... hybrid lol

No-one is suggesting that turbos don't suffer lag at some part of the rev range. BUT once the turbo is fully spooled up lag does not exist if you don't let the revs drop. The 718 in particular keeps the throttle open even when you lift off in normal mode (avoid sport - it doesn't!) In the case of the 718 above 3500 rpm the throttle response is just like a NA. And as we keep on saying before 4000 the 981 feels flat and unresponsive. I have no axe to grind - I much preferred my 981S engine to the 718, but I'm not going to misrepresent its characteristics.

Edited by jonttt on Sunday 28th October 21:14

[tedblog]

jonttt said:

So they will make it bigger, they always do. I’d put good money on the next gen Cayster being hybrid tech ;-)

Or they stop making it altogether? You would lose the boot for batteries but weight distribution would be rubbish as no-where in the floor to fit them .The electric motor would be difficult to locate too, If they removed the engine and replaced with a complete electric unit?
And the investment vs government who want to stop the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2032 ?

Edited by tedblog on Sunday 28th October 23:11

[jonttt]

tedblog said:

jonttt said:

So they will make it bigger, they always do. I’d put good money on the next gen Cayster being hybrid tech ;-)

Or they stop making it altogether? You would lose the boot for batteries but weight distribution would be rubbish as no-where in the floor to fit them .The electric motor would be difficult to locate too, If they removed the engine and replaced with a complete electric unit?
And the investment vs government who want to stop the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2032 ?

Edited by tedblog on Sunday 28th October 23:11

You are making lots of assumptions there, as am I. My assumption is that a) Porsche will want to retain a 2 seater sports car b) they will make it work - that may be with a totally new layout ie not mid engine, the hybrid may be a different “balance” ie how much electric, how much petrol, etc... etc..... After all the i8 has a 1.4 liter engine (from memory) who is not to say (by way of example) that a new cayster may not have a 1 litre engine and be rear engined ?

[jonttt]

bcr5784 said:

jonttt said:

Oh yes it is (we could go on days but this is not opinion its fact based on physics no matter how much you protest)

The only way you can get around it is to limit torque ie as the turbo was originally designed to give better MPG...... but that kind of defeats the object in a sports car

I’ve never driven but I know Renault have not change the laws of physics. It may suffer less turbo lag than a 718, I have no idea but it will suffer from it to some degree. Its the basis of the whole ethos as to why Porsche resisted going FI for as long as they could until legislation made it impossible.

Hybrid tech will be the game changer to that (but they will still sound sh!t relative to a good NA engine, again its physics)

There is no turbo that does not suffer to some degree from lag until.......... hybrid lol

No-one is suggesting that turbos don't suffer lag at some part of the rev range. BUT once the turbo is fully spooled up lag does not exist if you don't let the revs drop. The 718 in particular keeps the throttle open even when you lift off in normal mode (avoid sport - it doesn't!) In the case of the 718 above 3500 rpm the throttle response is just like a NA. And as we keep on saying before 4000 the 981 feels flat and unresponsive. I have no axe to grind - I much preferred my 981S engine to the 718, but I'm not going to misrepresent its characteristics.

Edited by jonttt on Sunday 28th October 21:14

You totally miss the point I am making re turbo lag. For me its not about the fact that keeping the revs up mitigates any turbo lag, its the fact that when you can’t keep the revs up ie you are not driving in straight lines, you get turbo lag (and reduced engine braking). I would much rather drive a less relative torquey, predictable, fun NA engine on a fast road run. A FI engine just flatters to deceive, they all do. In my personal experience hybrid tech is the only solution I have experienced which gets around those basic flaws in FI tech, albeit braking dynamics are changed again (ie energy recuperation does make braking have a different feel to it).

[bcr5784]

jonttt said:

You totally miss the point I am making re turbo lag. For me its not about the fact that keeping the revs up mitigates any turbo lag, its the fact that when you can’t keep the revs up ie you are not driving in straight lines, you get turbo lag (and reduced engine braking). I would much rather drive a less relative torquey, predictable, fun NA engine on a fast road run. A FI engine just flatters to deceive, they all do. In my personal experience hybrid tech is the only solution I have experienced which gets around those basic flaws in FI tech, albeit braking dynamics are changed again (ie energy recuperation does make braking have a different feel to it).

You seem to be ignoring the point that if you can't keep the revs up on the 981 the engine feels flat and unresponsive. Above 4000 it's a super engine - between 2500 and 4000 - the trough in the torque curve - it's just frustrating. The difference is that you need (in round figures) 4000 revs on the 981 and and 3000 in the 718 to get decent response - so it's more of a problem on the 981. It is that precise issue that made me want to SELL the 981 not laud it. Had the 718 engine been more engaging and refined I would have been much more tempted. That issue was a major driver in CHOOSING, not rejecting, the A110 for me.(the fact that it has a much better set of gearbox ratios helps a lot too)

[JasonSteel]

Schmed said:

bcr5784 said:

Let's put it this way, my A110 is far more confidence inspiring in the wet than my 981S ever was,

Part of that may be down to the PS4s BCR .

if the A110 is on PS4Ses then the difference may be completely down to the tyres (it's been pointed out on here many times how much better the Michelins are in the wet/cold).

Edited by JasonSteel on Monday 29th October 17:52

[bcr5784]

JasonSteel said:

if the A110 is on PS4Ses then the difference may be completely down to the tyres (it's been pointed out on here many times how much better the Michelins are in the wet/cold).

Edited by JasonSteel on Monday 29th October 17:52

Of course that may be true (we have no way of knowing) - it may be down to the double wishbone suspension or lots of other things. The point I'm making is that turbo charging isn't the decisive issue Jon makes it out to be. It's not as if the A110 is regarded as just OK on the limit - it is generally regarded as outstandingly controllable. It's just irrational in face of all the evidence to the contrary that there are such black blacks and such white whites. Most road testers have a natural preference for NA and manual yet a turbo, auto car is being preferred by the same road testers over some well regarded peers - something must transend these preferences. Open up your minds a bit!

[jonttt]

Lol, you just don;t get it do you.

The don;t go for the FI 4 pot out of preference, they go for it out of lack of choice.

Oh, Did I mention the sound of the glorious 6 recently ?

[tedblog]

jonttt said:

tedblog said:

jonttt said:

So they will make it bigger, they always do. I’d put good money on the next gen Cayster being hybrid tech ;-)

Or they stop making it altogether? You would lose the boot for batteries but weight distribution would be rubbish as no-where in the floor to fit them .The electric motor would be difficult to locate too, If they removed the engine and replaced with a complete electric unit?
And the investment vs government who want to stop the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2032 ?

Edited by tedblog on Sunday 28th October 23:11

You are making lots of assumptions there, as am I. My assumption is that a) Porsche will want to retain a 2 seater sports car b) they will make it work - that may be with a totally new layout ie not mid engine, the hybrid may be a different “balance” ie how much electric, how much petrol, etc... etc..... After all the i8 has a 1.4 liter engine (from memory) who is not to say (by way of example) that a new cayster may not have a 1 litre engine and be rear engined ?

Maybe but they dont want to make the car bigger .it needs to sit below thd 911 size wise . The i8 is a big car and the problem with low sports cars is battery position
Mazda have already said the mx5 wont be a hybrid for that very reason .Only time will tell but to spend millions in investment when the car is decreasing in sales year on and is your lowest selling car .

[bcr5784]

jonttt said:

Lol, you just don;t get it do you.

The don;t go for the FI 4 pot out of preference, they go for it out of lack of choice.



Oh, Did I mention the sound of the glorious 6 recently ?

You do realise that I sold my 981 S to buy the A110! I did get it - but I sold it.I I could have kept it, I had absolutely no need to sell but I chose to precisely because the A110 is imo a lot better under precisely the conditions you say you enjoy. It doesn't sound bad at all but no, it certainly doesn't sound as good as the 981- but there is more to driving than just the sound.

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 30th October 07:26

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 30th October 08:46

[Prestonese]

bcr5784 said:

You do realise that I sold my 981 S to buy the A110! I did get it - but I sold it.I I could have kept it, I had absolutely no need to sell but I chose to precisely because the A110 is imo a lot better under precisely the conditions you say you enjoy. It doesn't sound bad at but no, it certainly doesn't sound as good as the 981- but there is more to driving than just the sound.

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 30th October 07:26

+1

I went one further. I sold a CGTS with a manual 'box, PCCB, X73 and all sorts of other gubbins. The Cayman was sweet sounding but the Alpine is much more interesting. Granted the engine is not perfect but it's a better package than the 718 I think. I really do miss elements of the CGTS but there are no regrets switching to the Alpine.

Most importantly, I think the Alpine is a lot more fun.

If you've tried the Alpine and don't like it then that's that I suppose. But you should try it if you haven't. Take it down a nice B road and you'll be having a riot. It really is that good.

[dreamcar]

All of this discussion begs the question I often ask myself (not that I am thinking of parting with my Boxster 981 GTS anytime soon) what would I replace it with? Go for something completely different - C63AMG maybe as I love the engine in that car and you can buy delivery mileage ones at nearly £20k below list? Save some money and choose the next generation Golf R? Or an Audi RS3? Probably not a 718 unless what it’s replaced with in a couple of years has an engine more appealing to me? Neither a low mileage used 991/2 as they are making crazy, almost new money and can’t justify that kind of money. Wouldn’t want a hard core sports car however as The Boss would veto that in comfort grounds, as she would anything with a bone jarring ride.

Edited by dreamcar on Tuesday 30th October 08:15