718 track day use

[git-r]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has experience of tracking a 718 cayman and whether it needs extra negative camber to not kill the edges of its tyres during hard use?

I would intend to get an s model car with the lower suspension and lsd.

Would I be right in thinking brakes/suspension/engine all up to task and that I wouldn’t have to worry about oil surge with sticky tyres?

Also, are 6”4 lads ok with headroom when wearing a helmet?

Thanks 👍

[LaSource]

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Porsche911R]

git-r said:

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has experience of tracking a 718 cayman and whether it needs extra negative camber to not kill the edges of its tyres during hard use?

I would intend to get an s model car with the lower suspension and lsd.

Would I be right in thinking brakes/suspension/engine all up to task and that I wouldn’t have to worry about oil surge with sticky tyres?

Also, are 6”4 lads ok with headroom when wearing a helmet?

Thanks ??

The cars not really upto the task imo, lacking brakes and geo adjustment.

As you state hard use, I would not be looking at that model unless you put a load of money into after market parts.

Yes it will do a track day, but yes you will ruin your tyres and get brake fade.

[gtsralph]

Porsche911R said:

The cars not really upto the task imo, lacking brakes and geo adjustment.

As you state hard use, I would not be looking at that model unless you put a load of money into after market parts.

Yes it will do a track day, but yes you will ruin your tyres and get brake fade.

There is a thread on Porsche Club forum authored by a 718S owner who previously raced. He does not seem to have real concerns on tyres (since he changed to MPS4S which impressed him on a very wet Knockhill day), stock brakes, pads or geo adjustability on track days. There is a Randy Probst video at Willow Springs with a 718S less than 2 seconds slower than a GT4, even when running on Pirellis.

Maybe Chris W will chip in having seen the pace of Brian's 718S at Oulton Park recently.

[LaSource]

LaSource said:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

We thought the stock 718s with a power hike and driven at pace by an experienced racer held up quite well as Spa. Of course, uprating brakes and suspension would be better especially for the more experienced track driver. However if one is a relative beginner then the stock car may well be enough for the early days. Some slight work on the brakes (pads and fluid) would probably be enough for the beginner.

[Porsche911R]

LaSource said:

We thought the stock 718s with a power hike and driven at pace by an experienced racer held up quite well as Spa. Of course, uprating brakes and suspension would be better especially for the more experienced track driver. However if one is a relative beginner then the stock car may well be enough for the early days. Some slight work on the brakes (pads and fluid) would probably be enough for the beginner.

Spa is not that hard on the car.

[LaSource]

Porsche911R said:

Spa is not that hard on the car.

Yes, there are tracks which will be harder on the car (less cooling time, more braking)

However, Spa is still a full racing circuit with some heavy braking zones (LaSource, Les Coombes, Bruxelles, Bus stop...) if one drives the car hard. Albeit the brakes do get a fair amount of cooling time too. With suspension there are some very heavy loaded corners.

I would say it is a fair test on a car when comparing to the bigger circuits like Silverstone and Nurburgring. Granted something like Bedford may be tougher but not as interesting.

[anonymous-user]

Porsche911R said:

Spa is not that hard on the car.

IMO Spa is more than capable of frying a heavy road car in very short order!

Personally I feel there's very little point taking a heavy road car with soft suspension and weedy brakes onto a circuit at all. Better to hire something more suited to the task. It'll probably work out cheaper too by the time you've taken wear and tear [and insurance?!] into account.

[git-r]

Yes I’d agree spa would kill many cars in no time, I watched the vid thanks le source and commented, sorry there was a lag in me getting the messages but thanks for the info.
That vid shows a lot to me, a good 10 mins plus from the cayman and both cars being driven very well. Would be so interested to know if they were checking the temps of the cayman...
The suspension looks good in that vid, to my eyes anyway.

[LaSource]

git-r said:

Yes I’d agree spa would kill many cars in no time, I watched the vid thanks le source and commented, sorry there was a lag in me getting the messages but thanks for the info.
That vid shows a lot to me, a good 10 mins plus from the cayman and both cars being driven very well. Would be so interested to know if they were checking the temps of the cayman...
The suspension looks good in that vid, to my eyes anyway.

No worries.

Intake temps? Yes I believe these were being checked through the runs and the 9e guys seemed to be were very happy with them, though they can best comment.

[Porsche911R]

git-r said:

Yes I’d agree spa would kill many cars in no time, .

my point was most tracks will kill road cars, Spa is not that hard on the car or brakes, nor is Silverstone vs other tracks, take a road car to a harder track and you will fry most things in 3 laps on a oem car where the laps are 1/2 the distance.

SIiverstone seems a very popular to track, but I hate it, it's a massive F1 track all cars seem slow at Silverstone.

lol why do I have to back up every thing I post :-) here is the brake chart on which F1 tracks are hardest on brakes.

I find at Spa bar two hard zones you are only bleeding off a bit of speed to take most corners hence the chart below :-)
we also took a box standard Cayman S it held up no problem there brakes and tyres.

I do love it there wish I was at WEC this weekend.

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 3rd May 08:59

[LaSource]

Which track would you suggest is a better test than Spa where we should take a stock 718s to see how well it can handle track pressures?

[git-r]

Porsche911R said:

my point was most tracks will kill road cars, Spa is not that hard on the car or brakes, nor is Silverstone vs other tracks, take a road car to a harder track and you will fry most things in 3 laps on a oem car where the laps are 1/2 the distance.

SIiverstone seems a very popular to track, but I hate it, it's a massive F1 track all cars seem slow at Silverstone.

lol why do I have to back up every thing I post :-) here is the brake chart on which F1 tracks are hardest on brakes.

I find at Spa bar two hard zones you are only bleeding off a bit of speed to take most corners hence the chart below :-)
we also took a box standard Cayman S it held up no problem there brakes and tyres.

I do love it there wish I was at WEC this weekend.

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 3rd May 08:59

Thanks for your post and very interesting chart with brake use.

Spa might be slightly easier on brakes but I always had it down as an ‘oil surger’ having lost an engine there before, ouch!

Its hard on engine though surely?

Thanks for sharing your findings with a stock cayman s. I’ve seen a few 981/982’s on track recently and none have had the tyre wear I’d expect from stock cars.

Is there any adjustment for camber front and rear with the stock suspension?

[git-r]

gtsralph said:

There is a thread on Porsche Club forum authored by a 718S owner who previously raced. He does not seem to have real concerns on tyres (since he changed to MPS4S which impressed him on a very wet Knockhill day), stock brakes, pads or geo adjustability on track days. There is a Randy Probst video at Willow Springs with a 718S less than 2 seconds slower than a GT4, even when running on Pirellis.

Maybe Chris W will chip in having seen the pace of Brian's 718S at Oulton Park recently.

Thanks for this.

Yes I saw the motortrend video with randy driving the s and the gt4, as you mention if both cars were on the same tyres there wouldn’t be much difference over a lap.

Is the thread you mentioned by a chap called Brian?

[Porsche911R]

LaSource said:

Which track would you suggest is a better test than Spa where we should take a stock 718s to see how well it can handle track pressures?

I faded the 718 GTS brakes on the road :-), none of my 5 other cars do that on the same route, the issue with the 718 is extra weight and a LOT more speed. I had smoke billowing off the front axel both sides 2 up !!! And once you get that brake smell In the Cabin you know you are screwed..

Donnington GP will kill the brakes on most cars, no recovery time heat builds !! . most smaller tracks will test cars, F1 tracks have been made easy as they are nancy boys and seem to want all the hard bits taken out of the F1 tracks !!!

Spa is quite an easy track to drive imo, you need balls more than skill due to the speeds, but the right line is fairly straight forward.
for me one of the corners which looks the easiest was one of the hardest to nail, Pouhon !!! I did go wide a few times there !! also I have a mental block at Stavelot due to a wall being very close to you straight ahead, my self-preservation kicks in there, odd !!! last keeping WOT to bend 18 due to the VERY high speeds, It takes a while for brain to say these speeds are ok if you don't track much :-) not lifting seems a skill lol...

I took instruction, and all my instructor keep saying was "pin it" lol my lines and driving were fine, my balls were too small !!

I am sure you know all the tracks better than me and more, you are just testing me now :-)

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 3rd May 09:46

[Porsche911R]

git-r said:

Thanks for your post and very interesting chart with brake use.

Spa might be slightly easier on brakes but I always had it down as an ‘oil surger’ having lost an engine there before, ouch!

Its hard on engine though surely?

Thanks for sharing your findings with a stock cayman s. I’ve seen a few 981/982’s on track recently and none have had the tyre wear I’d expect from stock cars.

Is there any adjustment for camber front and rear with the stock suspension?

Modern cars you get rear brake wear PTV has taken the skill from driving imo.

like most cars I think you can get -1.5 camber stock, track use really needs over -2. but PTV will get you round the bends now days, just have an account at the OPC for rear disks :-)

all well and good doing fast laps in modern cars with all the toys, but it's VERY easy.

Having fun at track days over "winning" at track days are 2 very different things.

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 3rd May 09:54

[git-r]

LaSource said:

No worries.

Intake temps? Yes I believe these were being checked through the runs and the 9e guys seemed to be were very happy with them, though they can best comment.

Intake/oil/water/transmission temps and oil pressure on track under heavy cornering with the cup 2’s, everything before and after running the extra power would be ideal, knowing this would be hugely reassuring! Lol after many hours googling I haven’t been able to answer any of those questions!

They probably don’t have time to comment.

Do you know how these cars fit for a bigger boned gentleman? (I’m not that fat, it’s the headroom with helmet that usually doesn’t work for me)

[gtsralph]

git-r said:

Thanks for this.

Yes I saw the motortrend video with randy driving the s and the gt4, as you mention if both cars were on the same tyres there wouldn’t be much difference over a lap.

Is the thread you mentioned by a chap called Brian?

Brian indeed, very balanced views. As mentioned, 9e would be a useful contact as they have started on a 718 journey

Mine is a 981S with a Ehresmann installed and tuned 3.8L with custom suspension by Centre Gravity. My experience of that generation before modifying it was that it would pound round track all day with no complaints (and none from the driver) but Pirelli tyres were completely unsatisfactory to road and track, and depending on driving style (mainly around corner entry) more camber was required. Brian seems quite adept at doing what escaped me, running quickly and not killing tyres with stock suspension (albeit at the limits of what is possible)

[Porsche911R]

gtsralph said:

Brian indeed, very balanced views. As mentioned, 9e would be a useful contact as they have started on a 718 journey

Mine is a 981S with a Ehresmann installed and tuned 3.8L with custom suspension by Centre Gravity. My experience of that generation before modifying it was that it would pound round track all day with no complaints (and none from the driver) but Pirelli tyres were completely unsatisfactory to road and track, and depending on driving style (mainly around corner entry) more camber was required. Brian seems quite adept at doing what escaped me, running quickly and not killing tyres with stock suspension (albeit at the limits of what is possible)

modern cars need less camber due to PTV

[git-r]

Porsche911R said:

I faded the 718 GTS brakes on the road :-), none of my 5 other cars do that on the same route, the issue with the 718 is extra weight and a LOT more speed. I had smoke billowing off the front axel both sides 2 up !!! And once you get that brake smell In the Cabin you know you are screwed..

Donnington GP will kill the brakes on most cars, no recovery time heat builds !! . most smaller tracks will test cars, F1 tracks have been made easy as they are nancy boys and seem to want all the hard bits taken out of the F1 tracks !!!

Spa is quite an easy track to drive imo, you need balls more than skill due to the speeds, but the right line is fairly straight forward.
for me one of the corners which looks the easiest was one of the hardest to nail, Pouhon !!! I did go wide a few times there !! also I have a mental block at Stavelot due to a wall being very close to you straight ahead, my self-preservation kicks in there, odd !!! last keeping WOT to bend 18 due to the VERY high speeds, It takes a while for brain to say these speeds are ok if you don't track much :-) not lifting seems a skill lol...

I took instruction, and all my instructor keep saying was "pin it" lol my lines and driving were fine, my balls were too small !!

I am sure you know all the tracks better than me and more, you are just testing me now :-)

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 3rd May 09:46

That’s disappointing about fading the GTS brakes. I’m sure you know this but is it possible you were braking long and soft to make them overheat? Probably not if your other cars don’t do that.

I agree about F1 tracks for track days, esp given how expensive they are.

Thanks for info about camber, at least there is some adjustment but nothing like enough from previous experience of other cars. Guessing the GT4 is more adjustable?