981S vs 718 base

[bcr5784]

jonttt said:

I totally agree with you that dismissing a drivers car on looks alone is missing the point (presuming you mean as a drivers car) but the issue for me is that there are plenty of good enough looking cars that drive well that I could not be bothered with one I think is ugly. They may not drive quite as well but I don;t care, I’m shallow and I can;t get past the looks. The fact I;ve not even been bothered reading a review at all of the car because of the looks says it all for me. That’s not to say my stance is correct in any way but its the way I feel, I feel the same about Lotus’s that I see, they are just ugly cars lol

I can't but applaud your honesty - but I'd take the view that in the class we are talking, at the price point we are discussing, there are only 3 genuinely good handling cars - and you have summarily dismissed 2 of them.

[jonttt]

Yep, good job there is a third choice then ;-)

[n4aat]

JayK12 said:

Was checking out the Alpine at Le Mans Classic and man it looks awful imo.

Do people really care about the attention the car gets positive or negative, who cares really. I don't care if people smile, wave, give me the finger, or ask me if my Ferrari was an MR2. People who get hung up on this are pretty sad imo. Its your car you chose it because you like it, who gives a fk what others think.

Come on. You are surely not that naive.

[anonymous-user]

jonttt said:

the issue for me is that there are plenty of good enough looking cars that drive well that I could not be bothered with one I think is ugly. That’s not to say my stance is correct in any way but its the way I feel, I feel the same about Lotus’s that I see, they are just ugly cars lol

Similarly I feel a sports car should, by definition, be sleek and attractive. Looks do matter in this segment and I agree with you about Lotus - I'd waited ages for their new car and simply couldn't believe it when they launched the ugly duckling Evora. That car that was supposed to secure the future of Lotus but pushed them right out to the edge. I'm equally convinced it's the reason you don't see many Nissan GTRs - staggering performance under an average body.

For sports cars in particular, if it doesn't look right it's not right.

[bcr5784]

rockin said:

Similarly I feel a sports car should, by definition, be sleek and attractive. Looks do matter in this segment and I agree with you about Lotus - I'd waited ages for their new car and simply couldn't believe it when they launched the ugly duckling Evora. That car that was supposed to secure the future of Lotus but pushed them right out to the edge. I'm equally convinced it's the reason you don't see many Nissan GTRs - staggering performance under an average body.

For sports cars in particular, if it doesn't look right it's not right.

Looks DO matter to many sports car buyers - and therefore manufacturers would be stupid not to take that into account. I'm sure you are right that it may well be a factor in the marketing success or otherwise of the GTR.

That said it's not a major consideration for all buyers and I can see no valid argument that they SHOULD be sleek and attractive. No-one would suggest a Caterham or Atom was sleek and many would argue they are hardly attractive. However either is superior dynamically in some important respects to a Cayman (or Alpine for that matter).

For sports car buyers where dynamics are the overwhelmingly important bit - looks are inevitably and rightly a second order consideration.

[Buggyjam]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I disagree that the Cayman is a strangled Beetle. It’s way more fun than my old BMW. And I loved driving that too. Mines a 987 so not really relevant to the topic I suppose. I bet a Lotus is a better driving car. Never driven one. I don’t like the looks myself. But, hey, we’re all different. That’s the wonderful thing.

I really would love a GT4. I’m saving up and might go for one in a couple of years if I can just for a bit. If I do I’m going to drive it like I do my current one. Min 10k a year, maybe 15k. In rain, snow and shine, to the shops, to the tip*, as well as my endless drives to nowhere just for fun.

Drive the wheels off it. Stone chips galore. I want the lads and lasses down at the Porsche near me to spit their tea out when they hear what I’ve planned as they hand over the keys (local one to me have a good selection of GT4s)

• ( has to be able to do it all those things to live in my household, as only ever have 1 car. I can’t justify calling it a toy. Bit like you have a pet dog, as opposed to a proper dog and then a toy dog to wheel round the park on sunny days)

[anonymous-user]

bcr5784 said:

For sports car buyers where dynamics are the overwhelmingly important bit - looks are inevitably and rightly a second order consideration.

That's like dating an ugly bird because she's good at physics.

I'll stick with the cheerleaders!

[Buggyjam]

rockin said:

That's like dating an ugly bird because she's good at physics.

I'll stick with the cheerleaders!

+1

Nailing my colours to the mast. As a sports car buyer looks were the priority. A bit like spotting girls in a bar as a lad. Well, I always wanted a Porsche rather than looking at other sports cars. But that’s due to their looks. The fact they run great too, are useable and didn’t fall apart was the sealing deal. Most sports cars outstrip my capabilities anyway so I’m not going to pretend I’m good enough on the U.K. highways to start criticising a Porsche or Lotus’ handling. Plus, in my Cayman there’s always some rude boy in a hot hatch that is faster. But hot hatches look dull as dishwater!

Back to 981/718. I’ve already decided if I did swap in a few years it’ll be for some kind of 981 Cayman. Im still not totally mad on the rear but the 981 front is really nice. It’s a great looking sports car. I think the 718 front end is almost slightly 1980s looking with the space ship type angles of the vents. I just don’t like it.

[Wollemi]

David (Porsche911R) got it spot on with his reply in August.

If you jump straight from a 987 to a 981 the lack of steering feel is immediately obvious and it’s dramatically clear how much communication has been lost.

However, I do think that if you drive a 981 all the time most people stop noticing the loss of steering feel. I imagine that it will be the same with the lag / hesitation of the turbo engine. Most people will learn to drive around it and will stop noticing it.

It’’s only by making a direct comparison that you notice the deficiency.

[Foundthecure]

Wollemi said:

David (Porsche911R) got it spot on with his reply in August.

If you jump straight from a 987 to a 981 the lack of steering feel is immediately obvious and it’s dramatically clear how much communication has been lost.

However, I do think that if you drive a 981 all the time most people stop noticing the loss of steering feel. I imagine that it will be the same with the lag / hesitation of the turbo engine. Most people will learn to drive around it and will stop noticing it.

It’’s only by making a direct comparison that you notice the deficiency.

+1

[Basaltbox]

A little off topic but I’ll be going from a 986S to 718GTS soon.

Presumably a total different comparison to the passionate 981 718 debates ?

[Si-3PO]

Basaltbox said:

A little off topic but I’ll be going from a 986S to 718GTS soon.

Presumably a total different comparison to the passionate 981 718 debates ?

Yes and no, you’re still losing NASP and 2 cylinders but you are gaining a lot of tech, a huge leap in performance and much better looks

[bcr5784]

I suggest those that think it's as simple as turbos have a poorer throttle response period read this article.https://www.caranddriver.com/news/turbo-vs-non-turbo-putting-throttle-response-to-the-test You'll need a browser such as Puffin to read it. It's a pity there isn't (as far as I know) a similar INSTRUMENTED 718 vs 981S test, though I have to say from my own subjective experience of the two Porsches, I would expect the conclusion to be similar.

And you'll see here https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/ferrari-488-re... that the 488 has a very similar throttle response to its predecessor even as low as 2000rpm

Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 17th November 14:03

[jonttt]

Lol ..... I’ve not read either article....... I don’t need to as I’ve driven both a 718S and owned a 488. In the real world there is throttle lag period in the 718. No amount of reading / testing will / can convince me otherwise, it is frankly crazy to state that there is not.

The 488 and 718 are however very comparable ie in both cases the previous generation NA car is a better driving experience, its why I could not live with the 488 and kept the 981.

Edited by jonttt on Sunday 18th November 10:34

[bcr5784]

jonttt said:

Lol ..... I’ve not read either article....... I don’t need to as I’ve driven both a 718S and owned a 488. In the real world there is throttle lag period in the 718. No amount of reading / testing will / can convince me otherwise, it is frankly crazy to state that there is not.

The 488 and 718 are however very comparable ie in both cases the previous generation NA car is a better driving experience, its why I could not live with the 488 and kept the 981.

Edited by jonttt on Sunday 18th November 10:34

Perhaps if you read the article you wouldn't make such irrelevant remarks.
Had you read the article you would know that in the case of the cars mentioned there was considerable lag in the Mustang (turbo) at low revs compared with the NA Camaro - but by 3500 revs there was no difference in throttle response. Having owned a 981S and driven and performed lag tests on a 718 I would think you would come to a similar conclusion - that by 3500 was little or no difference in throttle response. Lets be clear, as it happens, I find the lag in the 718 unacceptable - but then I don't like the dip in the torque curve and poor throtlle response between 2500 and 4000 revs in the 981. You have to drive around both. So to dismiss turbos wholesale on the basis of response as some do is simplistic.

Had you bothered to read the Ferrari article you would see that Ferrari themselves quote the lag of the 488 at .8 sec at 2000 rpm ( a terrific achievement) and its predecessor as .7 at the same revs.

The point is that emission regulations have blunted the throttle response of practically all modern NA cars to the point that turbos can often match them once the revs are up a bit.

Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 18th November 14:00

[testdrive_tv]

bcr5784 said:

and poor throtlle response between 2500 and 4000 revs in the 981. You have to drive around both. So to dismiss turbos wholesale on the basis of response as some do is simplistic.

Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 18th November 14:00

I can't say I've noticed poor throttle response in terms of lag below 4000rpm in the 981 but driving around issues of low torque at lower rpms is called being in the right gear.

Driving around that is more fun than dealing with turbo lag.

[Olderandwiser22]

Yea, yea, yea.. the forums fking troll posts again.

PistonHeads needs to ban these guys for the $hit they post.

Next it will be exhaust noise and how wonderful they are on £uckining judgfi g it!!!

[bcr5784]

testdrive_tv said:

I can't say I've noticed poor throttle response in terms of lag below 4000rpm in the 981 but driving around issues of low torque at lower rpms is called being in the right gear.

Driving around that is more fun than dealing with turbo lag.

Plenty of people do notice the poor throttle response of the 981S - at least compared with the best engines of the past. You can't get kangaroo petrol any more for that very reason - at least not on series production cars. Perhaps someone with a data logger could check it out - I'm sure of the outcome - but I'm sure that wouldn't want the issue confused by facts.

Driving around turbo lag is also a case of being in the right gear. As it happens I prefer the 981S engine to the 718 one overall too, but it is more complex issue to me than just lag. If others prefer the mid range response of the 718 so be it.

Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 18th November 17:46

[Basaltbox]

Was out in my 986 this afternoon. Love the car, never really noticed parts of the rev range to avoid for low torque as I actually like low revs /higher gear just as much as high revs/low gear.
I’m sure I’m not a good enough driver to fully appreciate the NA engine.

I am looking forward to my new 718. I miss not having the fancy kit that is in all the cheap hire cars I drive. I hadn’t really thought about turbo lag until recently having seen all the passion on forums. Again I’m probably not a good enough driver to let it spoil the 718 experience when I get the car next year.

[anonymous-user]

Basaltbox said:

I hadn’t really thought about turbo lag until recently having seen all the passion on forums. Again I’m probably a good enough driver to be able to drive the car accordingly and use the power band correctly when changing gear, something which appears to be a mystery to some,( mentioning no names jonttt lol) when I get the car next year.

FTFY

981 is flat at low revs <4k. 718 has lag <3k. 718 is faster and newer [and imo better], I can say that fairly conclusively having owned both.

I found my 2.7 981 fairly old and slow by comparison, but what do I know, the 981 is the best car ever built according to random internet forums and also sounds just like the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra