Cayman S - Pirelli vs Michelin vs Goodyear
Discussion
Slippydiff said:
As to why Pirelli get branded "poor" and Michelin get branded "good" ?
I'd suggest you take the time to do a search either on PH or generally on an internet. The evidence all points to Pirelli being the poor relation, both in terms of grip, longevity, noise and overall consistency.
Time after time when the question is asked, the products from Italy get negative comments, and those that formerly ran cars on Pirellis and went to Michelins, all too often state the French manufacturer's products are a night and day improvement.
I suggest you look at independent tyre tests too. Yes the Michelin's do generally win, but the margin over Pirellis is often small and not in every area. I'd suggest you take the time to do a search either on PH or generally on an internet. The evidence all points to Pirelli being the poor relation, both in terms of grip, longevity, noise and overall consistency.
Time after time when the question is asked, the products from Italy get negative comments, and those that formerly ran cars on Pirellis and went to Michelins, all too often state the French manufacturer's products are a night and day improvement.
bcr5784 said:
I suggest you look at independent tyre tests too. Yes the Michelin's do generally win, but the margin over Pirellis is often small and not in every area.
I've no need to look at any independent tyre tests thanks. Clearly you've an axe to grind on this subject matter, and now that your usual sparring partner appears to have left the building, you're once again spoiling for keyboard fisticuffs with anyone willing to engage with you.
But when all is said and done, it's free country, you pays your money and you takes your choice. Clearly it's a subjective matter, but when the majority of those who've swapped from Pirelli to Michelin tyres state the French product is categorically better, and all my experiences mirror those of others, I'm not willing to risk paying £800-1000 for set of tyres that are, irrespective of how small the percentages may be, by your own admission, inferior.
When/if the tide turns, and I consistently read/hear that the Pirellis are superior than their French counterparts, (though I suspect hell will freeze over before that happens) I'll once again try the Italians wares. Until then Toodle pip, and I hope you enjoy your weekend.
Slippydiff said:
I've no need to look at any independent tyre tests thanks.
Clearly you've an axe to grind on this subject matter, and now that your usual sparring partner appears to have left the building, you're once again spoiling for keyboard fisticuffs with anyone willing to engage with you.
No axe to grind, just adding balance. When all the independent instrumented tests suggest that the difference is quite small and my own experience of all the tyres in question says the differences are exaggerated I feel I should add balance to the debate. In any case, as has been pointed out, if Porsche thought that the Michelins (or Goodyears) were so much better they would supply the press cars (at least) so fitted, where they are an option.Clearly you've an axe to grind on this subject matter, and now that your usual sparring partner appears to have left the building, you're once again spoiling for keyboard fisticuffs with anyone willing to engage with you.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 9th October 15:28
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 9th October 15:31
There was one thread where the OP asked what would improve on the factory fitted Pirellis, I recall one of the answers given was 'bare rims'.
Pirelli's are poor in my experience, *any* of the other brands mentioned would be a massive improvement.
Surprised at BCR's lack of loyalty to his usually beloved French brands but maybe that only extends to ugly Renaults...
Pirelli's are poor in my experience, *any* of the other brands mentioned would be a massive improvement.
Surprised at BCR's lack of loyalty to his usually beloved French brands but maybe that only extends to ugly Renaults...
Geneve said:
Yes, very good experience with the Goodyear Eagle F1s on a variety of cars, and would be my preferred choice for regular road use.
They do feel marginally quieter and more compliant, but the problem in the UK is often poor roads and noisy asphalt.
I do about half my annual mileage in France, and the majority of roads there are in another league.
U.K. motorists spent so much time debating the qualities of different cars and tyres, but seem happy to tolerate poor roads.
Just an opinion but - best quote so far on this thread. Every individuals choice of tyre will be different - there is no 'one size fits all' situation.They do feel marginally quieter and more compliant, but the problem in the UK is often poor roads and noisy asphalt.
I do about half my annual mileage in France, and the majority of roads there are in another league.
U.K. motorists spent so much time debating the qualities of different cars and tyres, but seem happy to tolerate poor roads.
Having owned my Cayman S for 10 years now it has always been fitted with Michelin Pilot Sports. I will never know how good or bad they are compared to others as it would be extremely expensive and time consuming to do a controlled test. What I do know however, is that within my local area there are numerous differing qualities of road surface. The concrete ones make a right racket but the relatively new/fresh smooth tarmac ones give the initial impression of stepping into a soundproof booth - it really is a night and day difference and does show how quiet these cars can be on good roads.
bcr5784 said:
When all the independent instrumented tests suggest that the difference is quite small and my own experience of all the tyres in question says the differences are exaggerated I feel I should add balance to the debate
there's no doubt in my mind that the Michelin is the superior tyre but i will say that when the tyres are up to temperature the differences are far less evident - maybe that's why the "instrumented tests" suggest the difference is small?in practice though, on UK roads in the cold and wet, there's no way of keeping heat in the tyres and that's when the Pirellis are just plain awful. very little grip and absolutely no feel whatsoever - i think this contributes to the relative lack of steering feel of the 981.
the Michelins by contrast, grip way more even when they're cold, and conditions are cold and wet and i think that's where they excel. the ride is also slightly improved and they're a bit quieter - all IME.
JasonSteel said:
there's no doubt in my mind that the Michelin is the superior tyre but i will say that when the tyres are up to temperature the differences are far less evident - maybe that's why the "instrumented tests" suggest the difference is small?
in practice though, on UK roads in the cold and wet, there's no way of keeping heat in the tyres and that's when the Pirellis are just plain awful. very little grip and absolutely no feel whatsoever - i think this contributes to the relative lack of steering feel of the 981.
the Michelins by contrast, grip way more even when they're cold, and conditions are cold and wet and i think that's where they excel. the ride is also slightly improved and they're a bit quieter - all IME.
I come back to the point which no one has addressed, if the Pirellis are so awful why do Porsche supply press cars with them? Goodyears have been approved from day 1 and now so are Michelins. Given the praise the A110 has got from the press (on Michelins) wouldn't you have thought it sensible to take away the A110s (huge?) advantage and fit the same tyres? Of course it may be that those on PH know more about Porsches than Porsche do - but somehow I have my doubts.in practice though, on UK roads in the cold and wet, there's no way of keeping heat in the tyres and that's when the Pirellis are just plain awful. very little grip and absolutely no feel whatsoever - i think this contributes to the relative lack of steering feel of the 981.
the Michelins by contrast, grip way more even when they're cold, and conditions are cold and wet and i think that's where they excel. the ride is also slightly improved and they're a bit quieter - all IME.
I come back to my original point. Are Michelins superior - in my opinion yes. Is the difference as great as some on here would suggest - no - it simply doesn't fit with the evidence.
Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 9th October 19:33
bcr5784 said:
I come back to the point which no one has addressed, if the Pirellis are so awful why do Porsche supply press cars with them?
i guess no one addresses that because it's a question that only Porsche can answer.bcr5784 said:
Of course it may be that those on PH know more about Porsches than Porsche do - but somehow I have my doubts.
no need to be condescending. car manufacturers can make mistakes you know - the Ferrari F1 team is (one of) the most successful in history, but the last few years haven't been good and right now it's one of the worst performing. how do you explain that?i know very little about cars, and certainly i know less about Porsches than Porsche do, but i do know that i felt the differences in the tyres as soon as i drove off (the road felt slightly less bumpy and crashy). and i also know that with the Michelins i can drive my car in freezing temperatures and feel confident that at normal speeds the car isn't going to handle unexpectedly. the opposite is true of the Pirellis.
you keep going on about independent tests - did you even ever fit Michelins to your Cayman? and who knows, maybe the praise that the A110 gets does stem from the superior tyres...
JasonSteel said:
you keep going on about independent tests - did you even ever fit Michelins to your Cayman? and who knows, maybe the praise that the A110 gets does stem from the superior tyres...
No but I did fit Goodyears and did back to back tests. Michelins weren't approved when I had my Cayman. If the praise on the A110 is all down to the tyres - why don't Porsche fit them to their test cars - they are approved now.Clearly the view of the relative merits of Pirelli and Michelin/Goodyear tyres of many PH contributors doesn't agree with the view of Porsche. Whose view do you regard as more significant - given that Porsche have FAR more to lose?
bcr5784 said:
No but I did fit Goodyears
so you're criticising the pretty much unanimous agreement of those that have tried both that the tyres are night and day different and you haven't tried the tyres for yourself on the car in question.bcr5784 said:
Clearly the view of the relative merits of Pirelli and Michelin/Goodyear tyres of many PH contributors doesn't agree with the view of Porsche. Whose view do you regard as more significant - given that Porsche have FAR more to lose?
that's an easy one to answer - i regard my view as most significant and as my own observation is that the Michelin is the far safer tyre in the wet and cold, that's the tyre i choose - no brainer.bcr5784 said:
if the Pirellis are so awful why do Porsche supply press cars with them?
the Pirellis are not awful full stop. they're awful (IME) when cold and in cold and wet conditions - i know i sound like a broken record but this point doesn't seem to be getting across. like i said before, the Pirellis are way better when up to temperature, and for all i know they may be the superior tyre when fully warmed up and at high speeds or on track, so maybe that's why?but for my use the most important consideration is how they perform in the cold and wet, and that's where the difference in performance is night and day.
I'm another who runs Goodyears on a variety of cars and have nothing negative to say about them. There seems to be a peculiar lack of availability at the moment with regard to obtaining a matched set for 19" rims, so I'm hanging on for the Asymmetric 5s to appear in 265 35 format before replacing my knackered old Michelins.
My 2014 981 came with PZero N0 with 13k miles on them when I bought it in 2015. Prior to private purchase I went with the seller to OPC Reading to have the cracks in the treads and sidewalls examined. Their tyre guy said they were fine. By 18k I'd grown tired of their poor performance, and the cracks, and the rears were just about worn out. I called Pirelli. They were excellent, sending an engineer out to examine the by now replaced tyres. He said that they were all faulty. Pirelli paid for the two new GY F1 A2s I'd bought for the front.
I'd had the same GYs on my TTS and found them excellent and the PS4S wasn't out at that point.
When the 981 GY rears wore out after another 25k I fitted the same again. They've never given me any scary moments in, now, 34k miles, the fronts now being just under half worn after this mileage (measured at 6mm after 30k miles of wear by RPM).
So, excellent grip wet or dry, great wear, nothing not to like.
If all four wear out together I'd try the PS4S but I'd be nervous of them being inferior in any of these categories and pricier.
I'd had the same GYs on my TTS and found them excellent and the PS4S wasn't out at that point.
When the 981 GY rears wore out after another 25k I fitted the same again. They've never given me any scary moments in, now, 34k miles, the fronts now being just under half worn after this mileage (measured at 6mm after 30k miles of wear by RPM).
So, excellent grip wet or dry, great wear, nothing not to like.
If all four wear out together I'd try the PS4S but I'd be nervous of them being inferior in any of these categories and pricier.
woodysnr said:
Just looked on BC web site and it does not show PS4S 265/35/20 as being N rated the 235/35/20 are N rated .
I have the Pirelli on the car at present came with them al NO rated ,I know the consensus is that the Michelin is a better tyre but the Pirelli has a better wet rating strange. I will keep them on the car as 4/5 ml left and not likely to be using the car in the winter months so seems a pointless exercise changing at this time .
I'm just pricing up a set and both sizes are available in N0:I have the Pirelli on the car at present came with them al NO rated ,I know the consensus is that the Michelin is a better tyre but the Pirelli has a better wet rating strange. I will keep them on the car as 4/5 ml left and not likely to be using the car in the winter months so seems a pointless exercise changing at this time .
Also, whereas I hate Pirellis I despise Bridgestones so we have to fit Pirelli on my wife's X1, under warranty, as none other than these two are * marked for it.
3 tyres replaced, and 2 repaired in 7 months due to 3 punctures and 2 bulging sidewalls. They're made of similar crappy rubbish same as the ones Porsche fitted to my 981.
5 in 7 months is just too many NOT to be influenced by the tyre's design or build quality.
3 tyres replaced, and 2 repaired in 7 months due to 3 punctures and 2 bulging sidewalls. They're made of similar crappy rubbish same as the ones Porsche fitted to my 981.
5 in 7 months is just too many NOT to be influenced by the tyre's design or build quality.
Edited by DJMC on Friday 9th October 22:44
Pirelli P-Zeros are evidently not total crap; as has been pointed out many road test cars come with them fitted, and the road testers are still giving glowing reviews to cars with them on. If every car with them on was heading for straight for the ditch yarn it would make for an interesting review.
It’s my view that the biggest difference between the Pirelli and Michelin’s is in how the tyres behave as they wear. Pirelli’s seem to deteriorate in performance fairly rapidly and by the time they are half worn the wet grip in particular becomes woeful.
So if someone has worn P-Zeros on their car and replaces them with new Michelins then the improvement will be dramatic, and hence the comments stating such a huge difference.
Michelins in my experience do not degrade in performance throughout the tyres life anything like as much, replacing worn Michelins with new ones doesn’t bring a massive improvement in the cars behaviour. The ride improves a little and the road noise reduces slightly, but that’s it really.
The consistency of performance through the tyres life is principally why I
have always prefer Michelin tyres.
It’s my view that the biggest difference between the Pirelli and Michelin’s is in how the tyres behave as they wear. Pirelli’s seem to deteriorate in performance fairly rapidly and by the time they are half worn the wet grip in particular becomes woeful.
So if someone has worn P-Zeros on their car and replaces them with new Michelins then the improvement will be dramatic, and hence the comments stating such a huge difference.
Michelins in my experience do not degrade in performance throughout the tyres life anything like as much, replacing worn Michelins with new ones doesn’t bring a massive improvement in the cars behaviour. The ride improves a little and the road noise reduces slightly, but that’s it really.
The consistency of performance through the tyres life is principally why I
have always prefer Michelin tyres.
bcr5784 said:
Do you really take the view that for 3 or 4 months of the year Porsche are happy to accept crap reviews because the tyres the cars are fitted with are crap?
have you ever seen anyone come on here and praise the Pirellis, or say that they prefer them to the Michelins, or even the GYs for that matter? i find it extremely condescending that you can continue to bash everyone's opinion when you haven't even tried the tyres yourself.by your reasoning then Porsche can do no wrong and their cars are absolutely perfect and can't be improved.
they wouldn't gear the cars too long would they? surely not - why would they make the gearing so "crap"?
surely they wouldn't take a backward step with the steering and make it worse than the hydraulic steering in the 987. that would be impossible right?
surely they wouldn't switch to a turbo 4 and make it sound crap? no way - they wouldn't be happy to accept all the crap reviews would they?
Porsche do lots of things that are less than ideal, and fitting the Cayman with tyres that perform poorly in the cold and wet when they are not up to temperature is one of them, and the many reports by those that have actually tried the tyres for themselves confirm this.
Wollemi said:
It’s my view that the biggest difference between the Pirelli and Michelin’s is in how the tyres behave as they wear. Pirelli’s seem to deteriorate in performance fairly rapidly and by the time they are half worn the wet grip in particular becomes woeful.
i renewed my warranty a while back and had none N rated Michelins on at the time. to get the warranty i had to put the car back on to the nearly new Pirellis I had so I used them for a few months. it only reinforced my opinion that the Pirellis are a poor tyre in the cold and wet.JasonSteel said:
by your reasoning then Porsche can do no wrong and their cars are absolutely perfect and can't be improved.
they wouldn't gear the cars too long would they? surely not - why would they make the gearing so "crap"?
surely they wouldn't take a backward step with the steering and make it worse than the hydraulic steering in the 987. that would be impossible right?
surely they wouldn't switch to a turbo 4 and make it sound crap? no way - they wouldn't be happy to accept all the crap reviews would they?
Porsche do lots of things that are less than ideal, and fitting the Cayman with tyres that perform poorly in the cold and wet when they are not up to temperature is one of them, and the many reports by those that have actually tried the tyres for themselves confirm this.
There are reasons why the gearing is so long, (emissions, expensive to change, hardly anyone buys manual) there are reasons why they switched to 4 pot turbo (emissions - making it sound crap was a master stroke though), there are reasons why practically everyone is going electric steering (emissions and weight) - but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why they should fit Pirellis to press cars if they really are as crap as the collective "wisdom" of PH would have it. they wouldn't gear the cars too long would they? surely not - why would they make the gearing so "crap"?
surely they wouldn't take a backward step with the steering and make it worse than the hydraulic steering in the 987. that would be impossible right?
surely they wouldn't switch to a turbo 4 and make it sound crap? no way - they wouldn't be happy to accept all the crap reviews would they?
Porsche do lots of things that are less than ideal, and fitting the Cayman with tyres that perform poorly in the cold and wet when they are not up to temperature is one of them, and the many reports by those that have actually tried the tyres for themselves confirm this.
bcr5784 said:
There are reasons why the gearing is so long, (emissions, expensive to change, hardly anyone buys manual) there are reasons why they switched to 4 pot turbo (emissions - making it sound crap was a master stroke though), there are reasons why practically everyone is going electric steering (emissions and weight) - but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why they should fit Pirellis to press cars if they really are as crap as the collective "wisdom" of PH would have it.
ok you've obviously got a lot of experience with these tyres on a Cayman and your sound reasoning has made me change my mind.good day to you sir.
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